Toyota 86 Chief Engineer Promises Next Gen To Exceed Expectations

[quentinberg007]

Originally Posted by neg_matnik

The paradox is that a 94 mm bore and 86 mm stroke, oversquare engine, is not really suited for SUV/truck duty.
Subaru makes it work but that's far from ideal. Every other 4-cyl turbo engines used in SUVs/trucks today are undersquare (Mazda 2.5L, Ford 2.3L, Volvo 2.0L, VW/VAG 2.0L, ....). Except Subaru.
In short, IMO, FA24 is better suited for passenger cars; may need some valvetrain work, different cams and a different turbo.

Note that I said 265hp 2.4T. The tune (and possibly stock turbo) has to be “truck tune” to make that little power with that much displacement and a turbo. Can probably retune for better power delivery, but that does have motorsports class and warranty implications. I guess if I’m given the choice of a 265hp 2.4T or a 235hp 2.4 NA, I’m going NA. They will probably lap the track at the same time, but I’ll take fewer parts and a powerband that has a purpose over 5000RPM.

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[4S-TURBO]

I***8217;ll take a detuned small snail 225 hp FA20DIT responsive tunable platform engine over anything.

[Brahmzy]

I***8217;ll take the FA24DIT with the fat-ass torque band and monster tunability.
I own one and it***8217;s a badass motor. That***8217;s why they sticking it in everything including the next STI.

[Calamity Jesus]

You'd have to be high (say, above 5200') to think the Ascent has a badass motor.

[AVANTI R5]

Subaru Stops Taking Orders for the BRZ, Signaling Impending Redesign

Here's what the next-gen BRZ and Toyota 86 could offer.

If you were planning to pull the trigger on a new, built-to-order Subaru BRZ, the time to order one appears to have passed. Subaru of Japan has stopped taking orders for new cars, which means if you still want a new one, you'll be limited to the cars that dealers have in stock at the moment. The same goes for the Toyota 86, which has been manufactured alongside the BRZ at Subaru's Gunma plant in Japan for the domestic and export markets. The current-generation BRZ has been in production alongside its Toyota (and at one point Scion) twins since 2012, making it one of the older models in Subaru's stable.

However, this doesn't mean that production has already ended; the actual end is likely a few months away, while the cessation of new orders means that the automaker is winding down production and filling leftover orders placed weeks ago.

The Next Toyota 86 May Become GR86, Get 255 HP

The end of built-to-order examples of the BRZ is hardly a surprise given how long the Toyota and Subaru models have been on sale. But it also signals something important: a second-generation model that had been rumored for some time that would continue the two automakers' partnership on small and sporty coupes. When the BRZ and 86 debuted, they were hailed as a breath of fresh air for both auto giants that had largely been without small and affordable sports cars in their lineups.

But just what such a successor could offer has been the subject of very conflicting rumors for the past few years. One persistent rumor painted the next-gen BRZ and 86 receiving a turbocharged 2.4-liter four-cylinder to give the new model a little more power, more than the 205 hp and 156 lb-ft of torque that the Subaru has had to play with all this time. The 2.4-liter, currently found in larger Subaru models like the Ascent, could give the next-gen model 260 horses. But just what platform will underpin the next model is also up in the air, despite rumors of Toyota using its TNGA platform for the new model. This would be a significant change for the second-gen model, as the first-gen twins used a Subaru platform.

However, neither piece of hardware has been confirmed in reports thus far, indicating that Subaru and Toyota have been keeping a tight lid on the project.

The Four-Cylinder Supra 2.0 Starts at $43,945

But if there are two trends we can be reasonably sure of it's that the next 86 and BRZ will have more power and more room. These two aspects of the current generation of the small coupes have been sore spots for the two automakers, and they're likely to be addressed in the next-gen models.

When might we see the second-gen models revealed?

The summer of 2021 is expected as the market launch time frame for the Toyota model, and likely the Subaru model as well. The two could be revealed late this year or early next year, likely independently of any auto show schedule.

Autoweek

[AVANTI R5]

Is This The Long-Awaited 2022 Toyota GR 86 / Subaru BRZ



A prototype for what looks to be the new Toyota GR 86 has been spied testing under heavy camouflage.

The test vehicle was spotted by Instagram user kystify who shared the footage with YouTuber Matt Maran Motoring. It was filmed near a Toyota research and development facility in Michigan and, even though the footage isn’t of the highest quality, there’s little doubt regarding the identity of the Japanese sports car.

For the most part, the shape of the GR 86 looks very familiar to the current 86. Up front, we can see a large black grille as well as a set of air intakes. There are also aggressively-shaped headlights with incorporated LED daytime running lights.

When viewed from the side, the shape of the A-pillars and roofline appear a touch sharper than the outgoing model and are more akin to the shape of the current Supra. As for the rear, it appears slightly taller than the current 86 and has a pronounced lip spoiler on the deck lid. Newly-designed taillights are also visible.

The new GR 86 and its Subaru sibling are believed to use Toyota’s TNGA architecture, with the 2.0-liter naturally-aspirated boxer four-cylinder ditched in favor of a 2.4-liter turbocharged unit from Subaru. This engine could pump out roughly 260 hp and 277 lb-ft (375 Nm), which would make for a significant upgrade over the current-generation model.

If that is really the case, it will nip at the heels of the four-cylinder Supra with its 255 hp and 295 lb-ft (400 Nm) of torque.

[oichan]

Originally Posted by AVANTI R5

If that is really the case, it will nip at the heels of the four-cylinder Supra with its 255 hp and 295 lb-ft (400 Nm) of torque.

And thus why they probably won't do it and keep a wimpy 2.4L YAWN motor.. I mean NA.

[godfather2112]

Originally Posted by oichan

And thus why they probably won't do it and keep a wimpy 2.4L YAWN motor.. I mean NA.

Maybe, maybe not. I won’t be surprised if the power is under rated. I’d also assume that the suspension, brakes, and interior are significantly better on the 4 banger Supra versus a turbo 4 86.

[White out]

Turbo motor would be great. It doesn't make sense for Toyota to compete against itself at a lower price-point. But maybe they will offer an n/a motor for the current pricing and have the turbo closer to the $40k mark.

[godfather2112]

Originally Posted by White out

Turbo motor would be great. It doesn't make sense for Toyota to compete against itself at a lower price-point. But maybe they will offer an n/a motor for the current pricing and have the turbo closer to the $40k mark.

It really all depends on the total package and if the price is justified. If the 4 banger Supra outperforms a turbo brz/86, sure. It can probably command the $10k additional price tag. I don’t see it as any different than Subaru selling an Sti against the WRX, Golf R against the GTI (yes, I’m aware one has AWD), etc.

[Ultimateone]

There is no turbo coming for the GR 86

[thill]

I don't see them offering a turbo either. It will be the same complaints all over again. Under powered out of the gate.

[bugatti0628]

Originally Posted by thill

I don't see them offering a turbo either. It will be the same complaints all over again. Under powered out of the gate.

Unless they decide take a GRMN and STI versions with a turbo for more money.

[Dex]

Originally Posted by bugatti0628

Unless they decide take a GRMN and STI versions with a turbo for more money.

Or, if they decide to never offer a manual on the Supra and offer a turbo BR/86 down the road. It could quell two camps with one car.

[White out]

Originally Posted by godfather2112

It really all depends on the total package and if the price is justified. If the 4 banger Supra outperforms a turbo brz/86, sure. It can probably command the $10k additional price tag. I don’t see it as any different than Subaru selling an Sti against the WRX, Golf R against the GTI (yes, I’m aware one has AWD), etc.

Well, the Supra 2.0 is currently $11k more than the top model 86. So a turbo 86 would likely be close in price to the Supra 2.0 and likely result in making buyers choose between the body style they like more / transmission options. But that's odd that Toyo would have two competing cars.

Maybe we're just all off basis and the GR 86 Turbo is more than Supra 2.0?

[KC]

Supra BRZ 2.0T.

Done.

--kC

[Pre]

Originally Posted by Ultimateone

There is no turbo coming for the GR 86

Companies who don’t listen to their customers don’t deserve sales.

[chanomatik]

They sell despite making them without turbos.

More usable power in the Twins would be welcomed, but a turbo isn't necessary.

[Scooby-Doode]

Originally Posted by Pre

Companies who don’t listen to their customers don’t deserve sales.

Need I remind you the mantra said by many all over the interwebs?

-Clears throat-

We are only but a very small part of the car buying population. Car companies make cars for the masses, not for us interweb connected/message board/forum posting enthusiasts. They are in business to make a profit, and we know that means right?

Chugs Turkey Hill Iced Tea......

Toyota should put a Yamaha built high revving, longitudinally mounted, in-line 4 NA motor in this thing. Mount it like a S2000 and let people enjoy the ride. Heck talk to Mazda about their SkyActive motor.

[quentinberg007]

Originally Posted by chanomatik

They sell despite making them without turbos.

More usable power in the Twins would be welcomed, but a turbo isn't necessary.

Turbo or not, this is a niche market... and it always will be. It is a tiny RWD car and that is going to limit those willing to buy. Strike one. Those that want acceleration are always going to get a better value in a pony car. Strike two. So, to avoid strike three and completely killing the model, it comes down to the balancing act between what can they sell profitably in the volumes that fit their capacity and fits overall with their brand lineup for the next 8 years.

I would love an 8000+ RPM Yamaha engine in the 86. The sky active 2.0 wasn’t particularly impressive; the chassis and focus on light weight is what makes the Miata great. I don’t think a good engine is beyond the capability of the FA24... I just don’t know if they will do the expensive things that are required to do it.

[Keshav]

making the engine rev like a sports car should rev is in conflict with the accountant's goal of building the car to a price point.

The end result will be something young buyers can stretch to make payments on while they continue to talk about future engine swaps that will hardly ever happen. Forced Induction kits will provide money pits while destroying resale.

Just get a C4 or C5 corvette for your cheap speed and move on.

[oichan]

There is no reason for Toyota to offer a half-arsed 2 door sports coupe like the 86/BRZ.. especially not a second gen of basically the same thing.

Toyota should've just dumped the 86 and concentrated on making a 2.0L MT Supra even if it costs $40K and just concentrated on 3 Supra trims.. 4 banger (MT), I6 (ZF), and GRMN(ZF).

[Scooby-Doode]

Originally Posted by oichan

There is no reason for Toyota to offer a half-arsed 2 door sports coupe like the 86/BRZ.. especially not a second gen of basically the same thing.

Toyota should've just dumped the 86 and concentrated on making a 2.0L MT Supra even if it costs $40K and just concentrated on 3 Supra trims.. 4 banger (MT), I6 (ZF), and GRMN(ZF).

Although a fantastic idea (one I am 1000000% on-board with) the Supra is Toyota's halo Sports car. Notice I said Toyota, not Lexus. If Toyota had done as we wanted enthusiasts would have cried (as they always do) that the Supra has been watered down, yadda yadda yadda yadda and why do I share the same chassis as the lowest base trim yadda yadda yadda. See how BMW segregated the 3 Series from the M3 (totally different sub-frames, engines, brakes, trans, etc).

I would suggest bringing back Celica but at at this point the younger gen has no idea what that is. Toyota should just stick with the 86 and make it a legit sports car, not the half-arse stuff just as you have pointed out. Too many watered down solutions by too many collaborative efforts. Toyota/Subaru, Toyota/BMW, Toyota/Mazda, Toyota/Diahatsu/Suzuki. SIGH.. end rant.

[Doobie Scoo]

Originally Posted by Scooby-Doode

Toyota should put a Yamaha built high revving, longitudinally mounted, in-line 4 NA motor in this thing. Mount it like a S2000 and let people enjoy the ride. Heck talk to Mazda about their SkyActive motor.

They did that once upon a time. Blacktop BEAMS 3SGE in the Toyota Altezza. Head by Yamaha, VVT on both cams, RWD 6 speed. was about 220 NA ponies.

Originally Posted by Scooby-Doode

I would suggest bringing back Celica but at at this point the younger gen has no idea what that is. Toyota should just stick with the 86 and make it a legit sports car, not the half-arse stuff just as you have pointed out. Too many watered down solutions by too many collaborative efforts. Toyota/Subaru, Toyota/BMW, Toyota/Mazda, Toyota/Diahatsu/Suzuki. SIGH.. end rant.

The twins are basically a Celica, they are nothing like the OG 86. The SFR concept Toyota showed a while back had the same HP, weight, and wheelbase of the OG 86...

They should have called the 86 a Celica, and maybe tapped Mazda for their new skyactive I6 and put that in the Celica Supra.

[Pre]

Originally Posted by Scooby-Doode

Need I remind you the mantra said by many all over the interwebs?

-Clears throat-

We are only but a very small part of the car buying population. Car companies make cars for the masses, not for us interweb connected/message board/forum posting enthusiasts. They are in business to make a profit, and we know that means right?

Chugs Turkey Hill Iced Tea......

Toyota should put a Yamaha built high revving, longitudinally mounted, in-line 4 NA motor in this thing. Mount it like a S2000 and let people enjoy the ride. Heck talk to Mazda about their SkyActive motor.

My point was owners of the damn car, not all us, have told them "turbo" since day 1. The entire automotive journalism core have said the same. Slap a turbo in it, hell make it an upper trim, f'in Subaru does that now with the oh I don't know, the Outback, Legacy, why can't they do it with the BRZ? Idiots. They'd poach Pony car sales, Miata sales, and get this, Cayman sales! For the dollar it would be the best RWD platform on the entire car market. Their answer, no. The owners and journalists have requested it since day 1.