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Old 08-12-2020, 04:17 PM   #501
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Originally Posted by Doobie Scoo View Post
They did that once upon a time. Blacktop BEAMS 3SGE in the Toyota Altezza. Head by Yamaha, VVT on both cams, RWD 6 speed. was about 220 NA ponies.



The twins are basically a Celica, they are nothing like the OG 86. The SFR concept Toyota showed a while back had the same HP, weight, and wheelbase of the OG 86...

They should have called the 86 a Celica, and maybe tapped Mazda for their new skyactive I6 and put that in the Celica Supra.
My first car ever was a 2000 Toyota Celica GT and maybe it's just the rose-tinted goggles, but that thing was a blast to drive, the GT-S even more so with the rev-happy 2ZZ motor. Still underpowered as all hell but revving it out is where the fun is at. After that I had a DC5 so high-revving NA motors will always have a special place in my heart. Sadly due to emissions and fuel efficiency regulations becoming more stringent, I don't know if we'll see many high performance NAs in the future as manufacturers are heavily favoring small displacement forced induction motors now.

The 86 twins definitely scream "Celica" to me, way more than the Scion tC which many people considered the spiritual successor to the Celica.
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Old 08-12-2020, 04:30 PM   #502
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Tell the Toyota 86 head engineer I'm not impressed at all and it looks pretty much same as last one. But I will be impressed if they mid-engine the 86 and BRZ
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Old 08-12-2020, 05:54 PM   #503
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Are you talking MR behind the seats or behind the front axle? AFAIK it's still going to be a 2+2 making the former impossible.
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Old 08-12-2020, 09:12 PM   #504
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I don't know what SBR's "goal" is with this project specifically. I still think it's a Toyota thing and since they are tapping Subaru for the boxer engine(for all the original reasons), Subaru can make money by making the Toyota and then also slapping a Pleiades on it and making some more. SOA didn't want the car. Not one single advertisement in 8 years. Now, I'm waiting to see is SOA is on board with this next one. I figure if they continue the no ad plan, then they still don't. If they do,.....
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Old 08-12-2020, 09:27 PM   #505
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Sales are sales. I'm more interested in seeing if the lesson they learned from the current gen is selling it for too high a price. Especially if they're just modifying the current platform. Imagine if the next gen is cheaper?!
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Old 08-12-2020, 09:44 PM   #506
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My point was owners of the damn car, not all us, have told them "turbo" since day 1. The entire automotive journalism core have said the same. Slap a turbo in it, hell make it an upper trim, f'in Subaru does that now with the oh I don't know, the Outback, Legacy, why can't they do it with the BRZ? Idiots. They'd poach Pony car sales, Miata sales, and get this, Cayman sales! For the dollar it would be the best RWD platform on the entire car market. Their answer, no. The owners and journalists have requested it since day 1.
A 275hp BRZ with a fat torque curve WOULD be an amazing car. Even at $35K.
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Old 08-13-2020, 10:41 AM   #507
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Sales are sales. I'm more interested in seeing if the lesson they learned from the current gen is selling it for too high a price. Especially if they're just modifying the current platform. Imagine if the next gen is cheaper?!
A cheaper redo of the current 86/BRZ.. or a tad more expensive, but an actual sports car with a real engine.

The former can be had today in the used car market.. cheaper is just another half-arsed solution.
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Old 08-13-2020, 12:38 PM   #508
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A cheaper redo of the current 86/BRZ.. or a tad more expensive, but an actual sports car with a real engine.

The former can be had today in the used car market.. cheaper is just another half-arsed solution.
You say "another"; but, how is a car built to a specified goal "half-arsed"? They built what they intended. Has the Miata been "half-arsed" it's entire life?
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Old 08-13-2020, 01:06 PM   #509
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Originally Posted by oichan View Post
A cheaper redo of the current 86/BRZ.. or a tad more expensive, but an actual sports car with a real engine.

The former can be had today in the used car market.. cheaper is just another half-arsed solution.
When the Twins were being developed they were originally expected to be "sub-$20k" sports cars. It wasn't that hard to imagine since they're such frankenstein cars. Then Toyota priced their car too high. The BRZ had a good amount of features for just about $1k more.

My hope is that development costs of lowered enough that they can afford to improve them AND lower the price.
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Old 08-13-2020, 01:48 PM   #510
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A used twin seems like it'd be a good toy/project car since there are so many of them and they're pretty cheap now. That, and the fact that they've remain mostly unchanged over the years, and anything that was improved on by the factory could also easily be replicated/improved upon by the aftermarket; it's not like they dropped a whole new motor in at some point.

A brand new base 86 is $27K and brand new base BRZ is $29K which is quite high for what it is.
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Old 08-13-2020, 01:53 PM   #511
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Car and Driver posted a couple cleaner photos today:

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a3...YFntKg8QG6PPY8

It really doesn't look like they changed the chassis at all and that its basically a heavy reskin... I also don't see any evidence of an intercooler.

But those front fender vents are clearly functional.
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Old 08-13-2020, 02:16 PM   #512
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Just take a Honda Power boat engine and turn it sideways. Tech on boat engines is amazing.
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Old 08-13-2020, 02:34 PM   #513
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All these articles keep saying "turbocharged", but unless they went with one sneaky ass FMIC on that test car, I'm thinking not likely.
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Old 08-13-2020, 02:38 PM   #514
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I like how the driver is wearing a mask. This is peak 2020 content, folks
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Old 08-13-2020, 02:44 PM   #515
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You say "another"; but, how is a car built to a specified goal "half-arsed"? They built what they intended. Has the Miata been "half-arsed" it's entire life?
If the objective is half-arsed from the beginning, then you get a half-arsed car.


Quote:
Originally Posted by chanomatik View Post
When the Twins were being developed they were originally expected to be "sub-$20k" sports cars. It wasn't that hard to imagine since they're such frankenstein cars. Then Toyota priced their car too high. The BRZ had a good amount of features for just about $1k more.

My hope is that development costs of lowered enough that they can afford to improve them AND lower the price.
I believe the goal was originally sub-$25K for a fully loaded twin..(?) anyway I do remember back 10yrs ago the higher price was an issue. But with the used car market available now for the budget minded this time, Toyota needs to addresses the general consensus that the twins are just too damn slow and fix that first even if it requires a higher price tag.

Otherwise, they will make the same mistake again. As others have said, they could've just kept the chassis and body exactly the same, but add a WRX FA20 in there and that's all we asked from the very beginning.
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Old 08-13-2020, 02:50 PM   #516
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Originally Posted by Kostamojen View Post
Car and Driver posted a couple cleaner photos today:

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a3...YFntKg8QG6PPY8

It really doesn't look like they changed the chassis at all and that its basically a heavy reskin... I also don't see any evidence of an intercooler.

But those front fender vents are clearly functional.
Based on those pics, the next gen is going to be attractive.

The vents are used on a lot of new vehicles, disrupting airflow on the sides to make it more slippery. I like real vents/scoops so I'm in for the new trend.

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All these articles keep saying "turbocharged", but unless they went with one sneaky ass FMIC on that test car, I'm thinking not likely.
Agree. No hood scoop = no turbo.
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Old 08-13-2020, 02:55 PM   #517
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Default Toyota 86 Chief Engineer Promises Next Gen To Exceed Expectations

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If the objective is half-arsed from the beginning, then you get a half-arsed car.




I believe the goal was originally sub-$25K for a fully loaded twin..(?) anyway I do remember back 10yrs ago the higher price was an issue. But with the used car market available now for the budget minded this time, Toyota needs to addresses the general consensus that the twins are just too damn slow and fix that first even if it requires a higher price tag.

Otherwise, they will make the same mistake again. As others have said, they could've just kept the chassis and body exactly the same, but add a WRX FA20 in there and that's all we asked from the very beginning.

I donít think it would have fit [while meeting pedestrian crash regulations]. From what Iíve read, the FA20DIT really seems to have a lot of problems fitting due to starter location and bell housing bolt pattern for even home brew swaps.

I was largely fine with the objectives and performance for the car. It was cheap enough I didnít have to have it as my only car, practical enough that I could drive it most every day (and drop my kid off in kindergarten), and was fun to drive on regular roads. It should have been $2k cheaper, and after the initial rush, it wasnít hard to get money off them. It also needed polish. The engine was pretty unrefined at times such as driving through a neighborhood and rolling to a stop sign. The general build quality wasnít great.

Last edited by quentinberg007; 08-13-2020 at 03:03 PM.
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Old 08-13-2020, 03:03 PM   #518
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There's a Toyota engineer on my Supra forums who works on "stuff" and basically said there will be no turbo so I don't know why legit news sites are saying there's a chance. Probably for clicks.

edit

https://www.autoblog.com/2020/08/13/...#slide-2256904

Last edited by Ultimateone; 08-13-2020 at 03:10 PM.
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Old 08-13-2020, 03:50 PM   #519
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Originally Posted by oichan View Post
If the objective is half-arsed from the beginning, then you get a half-arsed car.

I believe the goal was originally sub-$25K for a fully loaded twin..(?) anyway I do remember back 10yrs ago the higher price was an issue. But with the used car market available now for the budget minded this time, Toyota needs to addresses the general consensus that the twins are just too damn slow and fix that first even if it requires a higher price tag.

Otherwise, they will make the same mistake again. As others have said, they could've just kept the chassis and body exactly the same, but add a WRX FA20 in there and that's all we asked from the very beginning.
I donít see how itís was half-assed from the beginning. Power was never the goal, it was handling dynamics. I havenít driven one, but from what I hear people like to put up there with the mx-5 as a pure driving experience.

I actually think giving it the FA20DIT and calling it a day is half-assed. The reason why itís a good drivers car is handling dynamics for the power it has, and putting that motor without making a bunch of suspension and chassis changes to keep the dynamics right and control weight is the very definition of half-assed. If they did make those corresponding changes what would the price be then?

Could the price be a little lower for what it is now? Sure... but thatís a different story. Considering the mx-5 is the closest competitor though, for the purpose and segment it seems priced right. You could argue the whole segment can use a slight price cut though.
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Old 08-13-2020, 04:06 PM   #520
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I donít see how itís was half-assed from the beginning. Power was never the goal, it was handling dynamics. I havenít driven one, but from what I hear people like to put up there with the mx-5 as a pure driving experience.

I actually think giving it the FA20DIT and calling it a day is half-assed. The reason why itís a good drivers car is handling dynamics for the power it has, and putting that motor without making a bunch of suspension and chassis changes to keep the dynamics right and control weight is the very definition of half-assed. If they did make those corresponding changes what would the price be then?

Could the price be a little lower for what it is now? Sure... but thatís a different story. Considering the mx-5 is the closest competitor though, for the purpose and segment it seems priced right. You could argue the whole segment can use a slight price cut though.

Donít ever say the brz is up there with the MX-5. How dare you sir. HOW DARE YOU!
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Old 08-13-2020, 04:10 PM   #521
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Donít ever say the brz is up there with the MX-5. How dare you sir. HOW DARE YOU!
I did say ďfrom what I hear, people put it up thereĒ... Truth be told Iím wanting an ND2 more and more lately.
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Old 08-13-2020, 04:22 PM   #522
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Hereís the real problem. Civic Si Coupe starts at $26k for 205hp and FWD. GTI starts at $29k for 228hp and FWD. It is really easy to get even non-hot hatches like a Corolla or Mazda 3 to the mid $20k range by selecting something above the base trim. Cars are just getting freaking expensive.
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Old 08-13-2020, 05:09 PM   #523
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I don***8217;t see how it***8217;s was half-assed from the beginning. Power was never the goal, it was handling dynamics. I haven***8217;t driven one
You should. And you'll know why slow cars handle well.. Most any sporty underpowered car including FWD's handled well. I tried real hard to like the BRZ because I thought it'd be fun to own a STI, WRX, and BRZ.. WRX is cool, it's a great daily driver. BRZ.. not so cool. If that was a little slow looking hatchback like my FiST that goes quick, then it's cool.

So why bother making another one..
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Old 08-13-2020, 05:10 PM   #524
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If the objective is half-arsed from the beginning, then you get a half-arsed car.
Nothing about these cars are "half-assed" except the engine, so you can go ahead and GTFO with that attitude.

The ONLY issue with the twins since the beginning is the lack if power compared to the competition. But even with that issue, track days, autocross, and pretty much ever motorsport has been inundated with these cars. They have also proven to be very reliable even for track work and as daily driver high mileage cars that are way more practical than Miatas.

Sadly, I don't think we will see a turbo mostly due to Toyotas interference and trying to compete more with the Miata than something like an Ecoboost mustang... Which they are test driving that test mule against it looks like.
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Old 08-13-2020, 05:15 PM   #525
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Nothing about these cars are "half-assed" except the engine, so you can go ahead and GTFO with that attitude.
So you are contradicting yourself by agreeing with me that the twins are half-arsed in totality, and yet telling me to GTFO.

Interesting..
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