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Old 08-13-2020, 05:20 PM   #526
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Originally Posted by quentinberg007 View Post
I don***8217;t think it would have fit [while meeting pedestrian crash regulations]. From what I***8217;ve read, the FA20DIT really seems to have a lot of problems fitting due to starter location and bell housing bolt pattern for even home brew swaps.

I was largely fine with the objectives and performance for the car. It was cheap enough I didn***8217;t have to have it as my only car, practical enough that I could drive it most every day (and drop my kid off in kindergarten), and was fun to drive on regular roads. It should have been $2k cheaper, and after the initial rush, it wasn***8217;t hard to get money off them. It also needed polish. The engine was pretty unrefined at times such as driving through a neighborhood and rolling to a stop sign. The general build quality wasn***8217;t great.
Yes, I read the same it doesn't easily fit.. but they had since 2011(?) .. a whole DECADE to make it happen. I don't think they did.

Someone noted they wanted a used BRZ because at the $1x,000 prices it made sense. I can understand that, my pos FiST is used and had less than 19K miles, only paid $16.5K plus tax.. basically pocket change for a beater scooter and it's been flawless, actually. I don't really care to keep it or toss it.
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Old 08-13-2020, 05:23 PM   #527
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Originally Posted by Kostamojen View Post
Nothing about these cars are "half-assed" except the engine, so you can go ahead and GTFO with that attitude.

The ONLY issue with the twins since the beginning is the lack if power compared to the competition. But even with that issue, track days, autocross, and pretty much ever motorsport has been inundated with these cars. They have also proven to be very reliable even for track work and as daily driver high mileage cars that are way more practical than Miatas.

Sadly, I don't think we will see a turbo mostly due to Toyotas interference and trying to compete more with the Miata than something like an Ecoboost mustang... Which they are test driving that test mule against it looks like.
Yeah but the engine is one of, if not the most, important piece from the equation. It's like saying I am a really healthy person except for my heart that is defective and I am not able to run or exercise.

Tada-San wanted NA. Subaru wanted turbo. Tada-San won and this is what we got. I suspect it's why the next variant will be NA as well. Because Tada-san wants it. That said, nothing wrong with NA if you have an engine that produces enough hp/tq. And has the right tune.
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Old 08-13-2020, 05:32 PM   #528
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Yeah but the engine is one of, if not the most, important piece from the equation. It's like saying I am a really healthy person except for my heart that is defective and I am not able to run or exercise.

Tada-San wanted NA. Subaru wanted turbo. Tada-San won and this is what we got. I suspect it's why the next variant will be NA as well. Because Tada-san wants it. That said, nothing wrong with NA if you have an engine that produces enough hp/tq. And has the right tune.
Agree 100%.

I'm also perfectly okay with NA if it matches the shape of the car and hype.. but probably will not meet the emissions and mpg expectations of 2021 at those power levels we are thinking about.
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Old 08-13-2020, 06:49 PM   #529
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So you are contradicting yourself by agreeing with me that the twins are half-arsed in totality, and yet telling me to GTFO.

Interesting..
Literally every car outside of million dollar hyper cars have some sort of flaw attributed to costs.

If you think one flaw of the twins, the engine power delivery, is reason enough to write off the whole car as half baked then yes, GTFO and grow up.
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Old 08-13-2020, 07:13 PM   #530
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Yeah but the engine is one of, if not the most, important piece from the equation. It's like saying I am a really healthy person except for my heart that is defective and I am not able to run or exercise.

Tada-San wanted NA. Subaru wanted turbo. Tada-San won and this is what we got. I suspect it's why the next variant will be NA as well. Because Tada-san wants it. That said, nothing wrong with NA if you have an engine that produces enough hp/tq. And has the right tune.

Given the choice between a 200hp 1.6T and a 200hp 2.0 N/A, Iíd go N/A all day for a car like this. If we were talking a FWD hatch, 1.6T.
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Old 08-13-2020, 07:47 PM   #531
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Originally Posted by oichan View Post
If the objective is half-arsed from the beginning, then you get a half-arsed car.




I believe the goal was originally sub-$25K for a fully loaded twin..(?) anyway I do remember back 10yrs ago the higher price was an issue. But with the used car market available now for the budget minded this time, Toyota needs to addresses the general consensus that the twins are just too damn slow and fix that first even if it requires a higher price tag.

Otherwise, they will make the same mistake again. As others have said, they could've just kept the chassis and body exactly the same, but add a WRX FA20 in there and that's all we asked from the very beginning.
Originial goal was sub-$20K. They were even going to build a new plant for it. Things changed.

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Originally Posted by godfather2112 View Post
Don***8217;t ever say the brz is up there with the MX-5. How dare you sir. HOW DARE YOU!
NASIOC folks love to quote magazines. THEY have put it up there before.

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Originally Posted by oichan View Post
You should. And you'll know why slow cars handle well.. Most any sporty underpowered car including FWD's handled well. I tried real hard to like the BRZ because I thought it'd be fun to own a STI, WRX, and BRZ.. WRX is cool, it's a great daily driver. BRZ.. not so cool. If that was a little slow looking hatchback like my FiST that goes quick, then it's cool.

So why bother making another one..
Isn't handling well the goal? You allude to more power and they won't handle well.....

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Originally Posted by thill View Post
Yeah but the engine is one of, if not the most, important piece from the equation. It's like saying I am a really healthy person except for my heart that is defective and I am not able to run or exercise.

Tada-San wanted NA. Subaru wanted turbo. Tada-San won and this is what we got. I suspect it's why the next variant will be NA as well. Because Tada-san wants it. That said, nothing wrong with NA if you have an engine that produces enough hp/tq. And has the right tune.
Where did you hear this? What I remember was part of the full equation was a certain amount of power.........that yielded a certain MPG. They had taken a NA boxer and tried increasing the power. That didn't work for whatever reason. Then they DID try a turbo; but, CoG and other stuff like MPG/emissions wasn't working in the formula. It was then the D-4S idea came about. I don't recall any Toyota veto yet. Only veto I remember was Subaru saying no to the convertible.
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Old 08-13-2020, 09:04 PM   #532
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You should. And you'll know why slow cars handle well.. Most any sporty underpowered car including FWD's handled well. I tried real hard to like the BRZ because I thought it'd be fun to own a STI, WRX, and BRZ.. WRX is cool, it's a great daily driver. BRZ.. not so cool. If that was a little slow looking hatchback like my FiST that goes quick, then it's cool.

So why bother making another one..
I actually do want to drive one. My buddy just picked up a 2017 so maybe I can get a chance to take it out!... overall, Iím leaning to the mx-5 more and more though. Speed is becoming less fun to me (crazy I know haha).

And itís not slowness that makes those sporty underpowered cars handle well, its weight. Light cars respond better to inputs, plain and simple... quicker input response and a tossable feel. In the case of this segment, add in weight distribution, CoG, and RWD and it gets even better.

Why bother making another? To have a light and nimble, close to 50/50 weight, RWD, manual sports car with a more modern interior, and most likely more chassis/handling refinements than the previous gen... sounds like good reasons to me.

I do get the twinsí formula isnít everyoneís cup of tea, but I really donít want to see this turn into a pig of a car pushing 3000+ lbs.
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Old 08-13-2020, 10:47 PM   #533
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Originally Posted by oichan View Post
You should. And you'll know why slow cars handle well.. Most any sporty underpowered car including FWD's handled well. I tried real hard to like the BRZ because I thought it'd be fun to own a STI, WRX, and BRZ.. WRX is cool, it's a great daily driver. BRZ.. not so cool. If that was a little slow looking hatchback like my FiST that goes quick, then it's cool.

So why bother making another one..
You left out the biggest reason why these cars tend to handle well.
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Old 08-13-2020, 10:54 PM   #534
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Originally Posted by Doobie Scoo View Post
They did that once upon a time. Blacktop BEAMS 3SGE in the Toyota Altezza. Head by Yamaha, VVT on both cams, RWD 6 speed. was about 220 NA ponies.



The twins are basically a Celica, they are nothing like the OG 86. The SFR concept Toyota showed a while back had the same HP, weight, and wheelbase of the OG 86...

They should have called the 86 a Celica, and maybe tapped Mazda for their new skyactive I6 and put that in the Celica Supra.
Yeah cause they could have seen a decade into the future to know that Mazda, for the first time in history, would have made an I-6.
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Old 08-14-2020, 06:42 AM   #535
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Default All-New 2022 Subaru BRZ Spied Testing Next To Mustang And It Might Be Turbocharged




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All-New 2022 Subaru BRZ Spied Testing Next To Mustang And It Might Be Turbocharged

Shortly after the first sighting of the next-generation Toyobaru twins, our spies spotted a fully camouflaged prototype being tested on public roads together with a Ford Mustang.



The 2022 Subaru BRZ test car you see in the pictures remains fully covered with the classic wrap but upon closer inspection, everything looks pretty much production-ready underneath.

The next generation BRZ/86 models will adopt a much cleaner design language, featuring better-integrated headlights and taillights and a big grille upfront which looks like itís hiding one of the biggest changes over the previous model.




A closer look at the grille suggests that there might be an intercooler hiding behind? Yep, that looks like it might be an intercooler to, which means the engine under the bonnet is turbocharged. Previous reports suggested that the new Subaru BRZ / Toyota GR 86 will be powered by the formerís 260 HP 2.4-liter turbo FA24 unit found in models like the Legacy and Ascent.

The turbocharged engine will be paired to a manual transmission as standard, just like the current models, with an automatic option also available. A limited-slip differential at the rear will be also present.

The test car looks pretty compact, especially next to the Ford Mustang which we assume itís there as a benchmark. We canít tell for sure if the new generation BRZ will ride on a new Toyota TNGA platform or if itís going to use a heavily revised version of the outgoing model but the most trustworthy sources on the matter talk about the former.

The interior is expected to retain its sporty character, with a high center console and a simple design for the dashboard. Of course, there will be a new, more modern infotainment system with a bigger touchscreen display and all the necessary connectivity options but thatís about it in order to keep the new BRZ/GR 86 at a safe distance from the Supra.

Subaru and Toyota are expected to reveal the new BRZ/GR 86 next year for the 2022 model year, so expect to see more camouflaged test cars being driven on public roads before their official reveal.
Here is some Brake Photos for those who wanted some








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Old 08-14-2020, 10:15 AM   #536
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That grille shot looks like a normal AC heat exchanger... it looks set in too deep to be a front mount. But who knows... I donít get how it would work with the 4-cylinder Supra in the mix either, both on power and price point.
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Old 08-14-2020, 11:17 AM   #537
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That grille shot looks like a normal AC heat exchanger... it looks set in too deep to be a front mount. But who knows... I donít get how it would work with the 4-cylinder Supra in the mix either, both on power and price point.
I'm not holding out for a turbo (even though all the rags are claiming it will happen) but to the GR86 would be the entry level, cheaper than the I4T supra with more economy minded interior, more stamped steel suspension components etc.

Think if it similarly to the Camaro & Corvette strategy, higher end Camaros walk into Corvette pricing and performance, but are 2+2 and don't carry the same "prestige" that a Corvette does.
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Old 08-14-2020, 01:18 PM   #538
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You left out the biggest reason why these cars tend to handle well.
You should get rid your old G and get with the times. FWD is not what it use to be like in 2003 when your car came out.
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Old 08-14-2020, 01:38 PM   #539
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That grille shot looks like a normal AC heat exchanger... it looks set in too deep to be a front mount. But who knows... I donít get how it would work with the 4-cylinder Supra in the mix either, both on power and price point.
This.
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Old 08-14-2020, 01:58 PM   #540
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Dual eyesight cameras on that prototype. Interesting. I believe an earlier mule had a single camera.
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Old 08-14-2020, 02:39 PM   #541
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Daym Daniel. |ntrc00lrz

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Old 08-14-2020, 03:16 PM   #542
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You should get rid your old G and get with the times. FWD is not what it use to be like in 2003 when your car came out.
I'm not sure what that statement means, FWD still has all of the shortcomings of FWD; which are exacerbated thanks to the constant weight gain. Admittedly that can be said about every layout, as they've all gained weight and increased in size, but each layout handles weight and power increases differently. There are very few examples of cars that have lost weight, ND Miata is the only one that comes to mind for me.

Throwing more power at an FF chassis to combat the weight gain just means traction issues and torque steer, not to mention increased/constant computer intervention.

Nearly all cars out there have gotten 'better' in measurable metrics or at least maintained where they were, but in the immeasurable, the enjoyable, from an enthusiasts standpoint, nearly all have gotten worse.

Admittedly - I really don't care for FF, the only modern performance FF offered in the US that I haven't driven is the CTR, because I have no interest in owning one, yeah it has more power than and higher handling limits than a GTI, but it's not going to be any less front wheel drive than the GTI is, and the only reason I test drove a GTI and other FF stuff was because people kept telling me "FWD isn't what it used to be".

There is nothing modern out there that can mask it's weight. Drive some modern FF stuff back to back with the same model from a few years and a couple hundred pounds ago, you can feel the added weight, regardless of how well the newer iteration may handle or how much quicker it might be. Same goes for FA and FR stuff, I'm not just beating up on FF; the difference is though that an FA and FR chassis has physics on it's side when trying to put the power down/accelerate.

You could make the same argument about RWD as you did FWD, it's not the same - the Mustang & Camaro have gotten significantly better than previous iterations with regards to handling chops, interior quality, comfort, etc. They have however, also gained weight, like a lot of weight, and it's obvious when you toss them around, yeah they handle better but they feel heavier.

My fox body didn't even have ABS (or cup holders), the SN95 and new edge models managed to gain a couple-few hundred pounds, and the S550 a couple-few hundred more. I've driven examples from every gen except the 2nd gen, and although they've gotten "better" every generation, they've also gotten worse.

Then again, I could just be an old man yelling at clouds.

In closing, FF is still FF, it's just a nicer place to be than it used to be, and that applies to every vehicle layout out there.

Last edited by Sid03SVT; 08-14-2020 at 03:23 PM. Reason: I can't English good
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Old 08-14-2020, 03:57 PM   #543
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I'm not holding out for a turbo (even though all the rags are claiming it will happen) but to the GR86 would be the entry level, cheaper than the I4T supra with more economy minded interior, more stamped steel suspension components etc.

Think if it similarly to the Camaro & Corvette strategy, higher end Camaros walk into Corvette pricing and performance, but are 2+2 and don't carry the same "prestige" that a Corvette does.
I can kinda see that. But I feel like at this price point people care more about what they get for the money, rather than name pedigree. With the corvette and camaro, the more expensive one was lighter and more track focused vs the muscle car. With the twins and the supra 2.0 it***8217;s flipped... or at least the same, with the same purpose. The cheaper twins weigh less, and are suspposed to be a handling car as well. Also add that the twins should have nice suspension and chassis tuning so it***8217;s even closer. The lines are more unclear, to me anyway if a turbo 4 is added.

Now if the Supra 2.0 (and consequently the 3.0) get a power bump by the time the hypothetical turbo twins come out, it might clarify the difference more.

I don***8217;t see the turbo happening either, but time will tell..

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Daym Daniel. |ntrc00lrz

Ooooh look a turbo 86! boost yo!

Exactly... that looks the same setup as the spy shot

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Old 08-14-2020, 05:17 PM   #544
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Dual eyesight cameras on that prototype. Interesting. I believe an earlier mule had a single camera.
You've seen something before this?

If there was one with one camera, you think they may have been testing a Toyota Safety Sense system, then one with EyeSight to see which would go better with this car? My question, since seeing this, is will Toyota put "EyeSight" on theirs? If they do, do they just call it "TSS"? Or actually still call it EyeSight? My main interest in this car now is, what platform/who builds it.
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Old 08-14-2020, 06:01 PM   #545
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Daym Daniel. |ntrc00lrz

My sarcasm meter is broken today so canít tell if serious or not.
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Old 08-14-2020, 06:08 PM   #546
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thatīs what you see after the grill delete, and itīs not an intercooler for a terbo
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Old 08-14-2020, 06:28 PM   #547
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My sarcasm meter is broken today so canít tell if serious or not.

Quote:
A closer look at the grille suggests that there might be an intercooler hiding behind? Yep, that looks like it might be an intercooler to, which means the engine under the bonnet is turbocharged. Previous reports suggested that the new Subaru BRZ / Toyota GR 86 will be powered by the formerís 260 HP 2.4-liter turbo FA24 unit found in models like the Legacy and Ascent.

The turbocharged engine will be paired to a manual transmission as standard, just like the current models, with an automatic option also available. A limited-slip differential at the rear will be also present.
Bull**** meter broken too?
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Old 08-14-2020, 10:25 PM   #548
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Originally Posted by oichan View Post
You should get rid your old G and get with the times. FWD is not what it use to be like in 2003 when your car came out.
Lol, I actually just did today, but I was talking about light weight.
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Old 08-14-2020, 10:32 PM   #549
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WHOA!! I go away for a few hours to work and looky here looky here. New spy pics. The dimensions look good, the rear hatch/spoiler reminds me of the supra.
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Old 08-16-2020, 06:00 PM   #550
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Originally Posted by Sid03SVT View Post
You could make the same argument about RWD as you did FWD, it's not the same - the Mustang & Camaro have gotten significantly better than previous iterations with regards to handling chops, interior quality, comfort, etc. They have however, also gained weight, like a lot of weight, and it's obvious when you toss them around, yeah they handle better but they feel heavier.

My fox body didn't even have ABS (or cup holders), the SN95 and new edge models managed to gain a couple-few hundred pounds, and the S550 a couple-few hundred more. I've driven examples from every gen except the 2nd gen, and although they've gotten "better" every generation, they've also gotten worse.
In fairness, the Camaro lost a lot of weight this generation; that's part of the reason why this gen is actually so good, packaging aside. It's around ~200lbs lighter than the fifth gen trim for trim. It was just a mistake for them to focus test 5th gen owners for the design of the new one; as the owners asked Chevy not to change it much from the fifth gen, and that's where most of the issues with the car came from: Using a similar design results in the same claustrophobic cabin, and the styling was so similar as to not be acknowledged in sales from the previous generation, which led to GM's botched attempts to differentiate the styling with the refresh. Unfortunately, those mistakes seem like they will cost the Camaro another discontinuation, so we probably won't see a version that learned from those mistakes in the near term.

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Originally Posted by JustyWRC View Post
You say "another"; but, how is a car built to a specified goal "half-arsed"? They built what they intended. Has the Miata been "half-arsed" it's entire life?
Look, I realize the futility in calling the most tracked car in the world half-assed, I do. And indeed, I will prefix the notion I'm not one of those knuckleheads asking for moar powar in the Miata. I only hope my post delivers the nuance that I have in my head. But I do think, as far as my personal considerations, that the Miata has spent most of it's life as a outstanding chassis in search of a motor. Again, not because of power, but more so power delivery. At least in my own experience with the models I haven personally driven, the NA, NB, and NC were all saddled with "average"... kind of "USDM-economy-car" feeling motors. I don't know if that was a direct result of Ford's input, as Mazda did indeed design all the variant MX-5 engine designs AFAIK even if they did double for Ford duty. But regardless, none of the motors I have personally driven had exciting powerbands, they were all kind of boat-anchory engines (the NC perhaps least of all, but not a concise difference thanks to the weight gain of that generations' shared platform), with even the turbo Mazdaspeed MX-5's running out of steam in the last 1000rpm. Only now with the ND2 have they finally fitted a performance-feeling engine with a higher revving, peakier powerband that accentuates the light and handling focused chassis's strengths, imo. By coincidence, it is also now quite a properly quick car; significantly quicker than the twins even with less power. It's always been a wonderful car, especially as a platform for tuning and track duty, but only now I think has it realized the potential it's had all these years. If that constitutes that the old ones were half-assed, I don't know, but I do think they were flawed masterpieces.

Last edited by Skunkers; 08-16-2020 at 06:34 PM.
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