Stellantis CEO Warns About Europe's Move To Ban ICE-Powered Cars

[Vostok 7]

US has a hard time with electric because it's GIGANTIC and charging station support is piss poor. Until either EV cars with actual usable range (300-400mi minimum) become cheaper, or charging stations become more ubiquitous, EV is going to have a massive uphill battle for mass adoption in the US. Ford making a PROPER truck (GM, Tesla and Rivian should have done their homework better) that is EV will help, I know a lot of people interested in the Lightning that thought EV was only for "liberal wussies", so at least someone has the right idea.

I'd love an EV car. The power figures intrigue me and we have solar now so power is practically free, but I just can't live with a ~200mi range. We routinely make 100mi one way trips for just getting groceries, and also make regular 200+mi trips to visit family. EV just doesn't fit our use case until they have range and a charging network that works.

Now, Hybrid systems like Jeep's 4xE and BMW's iPerformance systems make much more sense to me, smaller fuel efficient engines with decent natural performance augmented by full EV systems. Best of both worlds.

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[AVANTI R5]

The US Refuses to Fall in Love With Electric Cars

Condé Nast

The Environmental Protection Agency’s revised greenhouse gas emission rules for passenger vehicles, finalized in December 2021, simply returned the standards to what they were under the Obama administration in the mid-2010s. This contrasts sharply with China and Europe, which have aggressively pursued carbon-reduction policies that incentivize the production of EVs.

Besides the politics, there’s a simpler reason that US adoption has stalled while EVs in other countries have taken off. “Historically, there simply haven’t been enough charge points,” says Alyssa Altman, head of transportation and mobility at the Cambridge, Massachusetts, consulting company Publicis Sapient.

“Potential EV customers are concerned with keeping their vehicle juiced up for long trips, and for some journeys in the US, the lack of charging stations makes this impossible.” Publicis Sapient figures indicate that remains an issue, with the distribution of the US’ 113,600 charging stations unevenly concentrated in areas where uptake of EVs is already comparatively high, like California. “To me, the main bottleneck is infrastructure,” says Coco Zhang, an environmental, social, and governance analyst at ING. “Consumer perception changes slowly due to the current lack of EV infrastructure.”

It’s not that American consumers don’t want to use EVs. When VW opened up preorders for its ID.4 EV in September 2020, the demand from customers made the website crash. It’s that they’re worried about getting stranded in their expensive electric cars. “While the figures look bleak at the moment, there is progress, and more imaginative solutions are emerging in the US that will work for the American lifestyle, such as providing charging stations at fast food outlets and grocery stores,” says Altman. The ability to grab a Taco Bell while charging your car may be a lure for many Americans. Affordability is also a major issue, says Chintagunta, whose research finds that EV sales go up significantly if adopting them becomes less expensive.

China faces some of the same geographical issues that the US does, including range anxiety, but it has successfully adopted EVs through what Ferdinand Dudenhöffer, director of the Center for Automotive Research in Duisburg, Germany, calls a “leapfrogging effect”: Its automotive industry didn’t have much experience in building combustion engines, therefore it could easily drop them when an alternative came round. That puts Chinese manufacturers in an oddly enviable position. Because it is not shackled by a century of business experience to a soon-to-be outmoded model of powering a vehicle, the market can adapt more quickly.

The gulf in approaches to EVs can be seen through a single company that operates in both the US and China: General Motors. Through a joint venture with SAIC Motor Corporation and Guangxi Automobile Group, two Chinese state-owned companies, GM produces the Hongguang Mini, an ugly entry-level EV that Chinese citizens compare to a breadbox on wheels, which retails at around $4,500.

Sales of that single model in China reached 138,790 in the last three months of 2021. The total number of EV models sold by GM in the United States in the same time period was 26. (GM declined to comment for this story.)

https://www.wired.com/story/evs-us-i...mJAzr--GqC_VOY

Sub. Req.

[AVANTI R5]

Skyrocketing Lithium Costs Could Drive Up EV Prices

https://www.thedrive.com/tech/43952/...e-up-ev-prices


It's no secret that the automotive industry is having a really bad time with its supply chain right now. The miserable chip shortage is set to continue in 2022 as automakers around the globe ramp up electrification. And now—the threat of a shortage of battery metals is beginning to materialize.

This might come as a surprise given the news at the end of last year, when battery storage prices had fallen to their lowest ever point, hitting $118 per kWh in EV packs, according to Bloomberg. That's a major reduction from $1,200 per kWh in 2010. A lot of that is down to manufacturing ramping up; the more facilities open up and the more efficient processes get, the lower the costs. The more efficiently these materials can be processed, the faster the industry goes through raw inventory. This, combined with low prices caused a shortage, and eventually a price increase.

Lithium of suitable grade for car batteries is five times more expensive in January 2022 than it was in January 2021. That's maybe not a surprise, given that basically every automaker announced plans to build gigantic battery manufacturing facilities over the course of last year. But the scale of the jump is huge, now up to 261,500 yuan ($41,060) per tonne in China. And it's not just lithium that's been affected; cobalt has doubled in price and nickel is up 15 percent, according to Rystad Energy.

This is going to inevitably have a direct impact on the cost of building cars, which will—unless automakers choose to absorb it until the supply chain issues resolve—have a knock-on effect on selling prices. To get an idea of the scale of the increase, the Wuling Hongguang Mini EV has just a 9.2kWh battery; less than a tenth of a lot of new cars coming out. And according to an analysis by Mining.com, the price of battery metals it requires has shot up from $108 to $277.

The Mini EV is seriously popular (it was the second-best-selling EV in 2021 worldwide) but it's also, as the name suggests, tiny. Compare that to the increase in the price of metals needed for an Audi E-tron and the same analysis reckons a jump from $1,895 to $3,861.

The good news is this is predicted to be a temporary bubble, with 2022 being the worst year for lithium pricing before things start to drop back down to previous levels. The bad news, in the present, is that 2022 is predicted to be so bad for the price of lithium that it will potentially rise by 50 percent again, according to reports.

At the same time, oil prices have hit a seven-year high of $87 per barrel. That's a weirder problem, caused by the possibility of destabilization in the Middle East and former Soviet world, with places like oil-producing Kazakhstan currently in major turmoil. That's even though there was such a gigantic backlog of oil, following lockdowns across the globe, that one oil price actually fell into the negative last September, and in 2020 a barrel cost just $15.

It comes down to the fragility of global supply chains and how much pressure the third year of a global health crisis is continuing to put them under. And some of this isn't reflecting the actual supply but more how worried people are about it, in the abstract whimsy of the markets. All that being said, it's definitely not going to be an easy year for making cars, whatever they're powered by.

[RealDealTarheel]

When I look at the price of new trucks, the preferred vehicle in this country, I don't buy that $45k is the barrier.

[SCRAPPYDO]

Originally Posted by RealDealTarheel

When I look at the price of new trucks, the preferred vehicle in this country, I don't buy that $45k is the barrier.

isnt that the truth. My new ram was 62k. The big difference now that the 15k dollars off and 0% for 72 months deals that were on every other radio station are gone.

Trucks have been skyrocketing in price for 15 years. My old 2014 King Ranch Ranch was 60 (but again got 13000 off).

I do not think the prices are going to level off. But people using the price of EV as an excuse to not buy one will quickly fade away if passenger cars and trucks keep this Icarus-like climb to the sun in prices.

[Waddlz]

my 2020 RST Silverado diesel was 57k MSRP and I got 11k off in August 2020.

the same truck is now 62k with no discounts.

[Masterauto]

You will be persuaded into EVs as average American uses 20 tins CO2 and will be taxed (current cost) $80 ton. Gas will pe pushed much higher and also taxed another .25 highways tax (this really goes into general fund so why u don't see Shovel ready jobs or infrastructure improvement) $5 gal be common and CA $8.
They will throw u a $7500 bone or carrot to buy that $55k EV over same size $25k Camry
You are in for a major change in life and middle classes going to take a beating. You just might own nothing and pretend to be happy.

[BeepBoop]

Originally Posted by Masterauto

You are in for a major change in life and middle classes going to take a beating. You just might own nothing and pretend to be happy.

I feel like not just middle classes, but upper middle classes are getting drug down into it as well. It's just harder to break away from pleb life, similar to europe. Difference in lifestyle between 90th percentiles and 50th percentiles is going to be negligible. You'll HAVE to be .1% if you want the luxuries of the 90s (like ownership of large ticket items such as private transportation and properly sized shelter). I wish they'd stop pushing too hard too soon for this and just let it happen organically, but nope... gotta "progress" at a rate faster than people actually want

[mcarb002]

Originally Posted by Masterauto

You will be persuaded into EVs as average American uses 20 tins CO2 and will be taxed (current cost) $80 ton. Gas will pe pushed much higher and also taxed another .25 highways tax (this really goes into general fund so why u don't see Shovel ready jobs or infrastructure improvement) $5 gal be common and CA $8.
They will throw u a $7500 bone or carrot to buy that $55k EV over same size $25k Camry
You are in for a major change in life and middle classes going to take a beating. You just might own nothing and pretend to be happy.

Honest question, you don’t think the middle class has already been taking a beating since the 70s and specially the 80s and the majority already own nothing? Bcus this ain’t a political forum, and if we get into a back and forth it’ll be deleted just like previous posts here. But man, you can easily google statistic after statistic after statistic to reflect the decline’s been happening for a long time and debt bubbles keep getting worse and worse after they bust like 08.
Heck even our own country went from being the biggest creditor to the biggest debtor after 2 terms of a certain president during the 80s.

To think EVs are going to only now start some hellscape for us sheeple is disingenuous at best. Whatever hardship collateral they bring us, it’s just piling on to the list, nothing more nothing less. There’s bigger things we should be worried about that are the reasons.

[Yotsuya]

It wasn't the wage stagnation, cost of education and healthcare expenses over the last forty years that ruined the middle class. It was electric cars right now.

[mcarb002]

Originally Posted by Yotsuya

It wasn't the wage stagnation, cost of education and healthcare expenses over the last forty years that ruined the middle class. It was electric cars right now.

Hahahahahahahhaha right lol

[Genericuser1]

Join the two wheel world my brothers, throw off the yoke of high prices and steel cages...

Except for days like today when it won't get above 28 degrees. Then bring on the heated seats and heat in general.

[Yotsuya]

I thought in general small engines pollute like a bitch. Otherwise I saw the neatest looking Husqvarna parked near my office last month. It costs as much as a used car used to cost, though.

I've found that once moving on the bike only the toes and fingers will get cold. That said it was -1 this morning so I took the train. That and the bus are COVID crapshoots, and while it's not being announced several people from the office are home, though thankfully not the hospital.

[Pre]

Originally Posted by Genericuser1

Join the two wheel world my brothers, throw off the yoke of high prices and steel cages...

Except for days like today when it won't get above 28 degrees. Then bring on the heated seats and heat in general.

One of mine has heated grips. Love all my bikes in the winter though. That cold dense air adds some HP/TQ. Just have to thoroughly warm the tires up first then it rips out of the corners.

[Sid03SVT]

Originally Posted by Genericuser1

Join the two wheel world my brothers, throw off the yoke of high prices and steel cages...

Except for days like today when it won't get above 28 degrees. Then bring on the heated seats and heat in general.

I used to ride 8-9 months out of the year, rain or shine, used a bike as my primary mode of transport. Then I had kids and sold them; I want one again, but people are morons, faces crammed in their phone all the time while driving, I almost get hit while driving in a bright red sedan far too often. If I got a bike again it would be for track duty only, at least until people learn to be present while driving again, and I'm not holding my breath waiting for that day to come.

[Pre]

Originally Posted by Sid03SVT

I used to ride 8-9 months out of the year, rain or shine, used a bike as my primary mode of transport. Then I had kids and sold them; I want one again, but people are morons, faces crammed in their phone all the time while driving, I almost get hit while driving in a bright red sedan far too often. If I got a bike again it would be for track duty only, at least until people learn to be present while driving again, and I'm not holding my breath waiting for that day to come.

For 20 years I only ride in my twisties or track. My ride to the twisties is about half an hour and all highway to get there. i don't even have to hit a stop sign or red light before getting on the highway. Riding in the city or urban areas, especially light to light, is for someone else. You couldn't pay me to commute on one, not even if you offered my lust want V4 Pan for free. Sat/Sun mornings or afternoons is it, and my twisties are rural. But even those are slowly being ruined due to all the out of state invaders. So I give myself 5 more years here before I split and move out of state. I will not give up riding for anything.

[Genericuser1]

I rode, got married, had kids, sold the bike, got divorced and now ride again

Mine has heated grips as well but riding under 32 degrees on a naked bike is either cold or you have to wear so much it's a PITA. It's been over a month since I last rode due to snow and low temps. It was 12 degrees this morning so I took a car.

I have the gear and the next dry weekend I'm taking it out. As long as it's near 30 degrees when I leave for work and will be in the 40's or above I'll usually ride.

I love commuting on my bike, if I was doing mostly city (I'm rural or suburban commuting, no highway but around 40-70mph) commuting I would definitely be on a small bike, probably a Svartpilen 401 or CB300; something light an nimble.

While I think eventually in the U.S. we will have mostly electric cars by then I probably won't mind since I'll be old and retired anyway.

Bikes while they are beginning to electrify are way farther behind than cars so I don't expect I'll ever get an EV bike.

For those that want that manual connection between man/woman and machine. Nothing is more visceral and connected than riding. Hell I don't even have a fuel gauge. Not carbed like the old days though which I'm glad.

[Calamity Jesus]

I got into riding in the mountains of NC. Loads of empty, tight, twisting pavement. Just tons of fun. I'd commute because it was short, but a town full of college students, rednecks (not the hardworking kind, the coal-rolling wannabes), and tourists just resulted in me being angry a lot.

I moved to the suburbs of a big city and just hated riding anywhere among the phone gazers. I'd meet a riding group outside of town and we'd spend half a day exploring the rural back country (more empty winding roads.. and a bunch of old guys with fancy bikes that like to ride swiftly).

Then I moved across the country to the Olympic Peninsula where the paved roads are almost all a constant line of traffic (because it's essentially an island with narrow strips of land where people can live), the air is moist & cold or dry & cool, and the proximity to Seattle means many locals and most tourists don't understand following distances (someone please explain this to me, the tailgating is insane). On top of that, the DOT insists on chip-sealing all pavement one year after paving, and it's low grip for tires but a cheese grater for leathers. I've barely ridden my bike. It's just not as much fun.

I've been hopefully rooting for Self-Driving Cars to come along and lend some safety and predictability to the braindead masses that make riding so dangerous, but the movement has been largely derailed by Silicon Valley megalomaniacal hubris and scams. Maybe they'll finally arrive in time to keep me from being run over while crossing the street with my Rascal.

[Pre]

Originally Posted by Calamity Jesus

Then I moved across the country to the Olympic Peninsula where the paved roads are almost all a constant line of traffic (because it's essentially an island with narrow strips of land where people can live), the air is moist & cold or dry & cool, and the proximity to Seattle means many locals and most tourists don't understand following distances (someone please explain this to me, the tailgating is insane).

Some of my best rides of my life were right there man. That 55 mile stretch with no stop signs or lights, is it 112? The northern part where it's Victoria across the water. It's been a long time, 2004 to be exact, but f me. I'd take the ferry over from Bothell. Dude on a 996 would meet me at the boat and we were off. He lived in Port Orchard. We'd be straight f'ing killing it all over the northern peninsula. Track days were boring comparatively, to that 55 mile stretch, because the track it's the same thing every lap. We'd be hauling the mail, carrying a ton of corner speed then his crazy ass would lead me back to the ferry at the end of the day. All the local idiots in the summer rubber necking the area would be lined up for miles and miles to get on a boat. He'd get in the opposing lane, pin it, and pass 15-20 cars at a time, get back in line, then do it again and again. I just remember going F there he goes again, must keep up, I'd see 140 on the speedo still pulling in 4th or 5th and I'd have to slam on the brakes, get behind him, I mean it was insanity. Then get to the boat and get to get on first after the pedestrians and bicycles was priceless.


Hear you though. My local twisties getting ruined as I type this. Friend lives out there, and they've torn up all the roads, and a MASSIVE amount of people are moving out there because Kalifornians have pushed them out of the suburbs. It's crazy. I'm out soon enough too. Just waiting on a certain equity number on the house that will pay for my rural setup and I'm gone. If I can't ride it's time to mafk move, pronto.

[Blitzkrieg]

Originally Posted by Pre

Do you have to know Aaron Rogers or Patrick Mahomes to get that discount?

Geez, hook a brother up with dem prices. Feel free to PM me

The credit goes to my wife and her ability to think about 30 days ahead.

In a nutshell we do 90% of our shopping at Kroger. We use the App to budget for fuel points and when there is a 4x fuel point savings you buy what it asks for. This includes Amazon (since foster parents we pay next to nothing for Amazon prime) gift cards, Home Depot and Lowes (My dad is a master carpenter and i can build just about anything) and your resteraunt gift cards. We spend it in such a way that we can get about a dollar off a gallon for up to 35 gallons for about 4x a week. Its a bit of work but the savings of 140 bucks a month is worth it. If your not in texas and you live near a Krogers your limit is more than 35 gallons per fill up. We basically fill up her Van, My ranger and two five gallon drums. So it works for us. Its a tiny bit of work but the pay off is about 1800 plus if you factor in the fact we buy everything with a credit card and save even more with cash back off the credit card.

Like i said we are smart with our money, and the above is only part of how we are able to live with 3 bios, 3 fosters, 3 cats and two exhausted adults. We are continually blessed by the life we live, and I wouldn't trade it for the world.

My Dad has finally caught on and since he is construction. They bank on it!


List of all he grocery stores that krogers owns plus how to work the program.

https://clark.com/save-money/how-do-...l-points-work/

[Pre]

Originally Posted by Blitzkrieg

The credit goes to my wife and her ability to think about 30 days ahead.

In a nutshell we do 90% of our shopping at Kroger. We use the App to budget for fuel points and when there is a 4x fuel point savings you buy what it asks for. This includes Amazon (since foster parents we pay next to nothing for Amazon prime) gift cards, Home Depot and Lowes (My dad is a master carpenter and i can build just about anything) and your resteraunt gift cards. We spend it in such a way that we can get about a dollar off a gallon for up to 35 gallons for about 4x a week. Its a bit of work but the savings of 140 bucks a month is worth it. If your not in texas and you live near a Krogers your limit is more than 35 gallons per fill up. We basically fill up her Van, My ranger and two five gallon drums. So it works for us. Its a tiny bit of work but the pay off is about 1800 plus if you factor in the fact we buy everything with a credit card and save even more with cash back off the credit card.

Slick work. I'm a Costco guy. Love the place. They have the best quality fish (my primary protein and means something when you consume 200-225 gr per day of it) around here, high quality organic fruit. And they have the best gasoline around, Tier 1 fuel. And fuel there can go up to fifty centers cheaper per gallon than the gas stations, depending on the time of year. Minimum 20 cents a gallon cheaper. Then I get a check from Costco annually for a few hundred.

I do your trick with an AA MC. It yields me two flights per year to Maui to visit my friends that live there and surf the entire time (and some snorkeling). I only pay a small fee for foot room or an exit row, flights are free. Then I rent an older vehicle from a local car rental spot that is a secret, so half the price of Avis, Hertz, etc. They have a Costco there so outside of Foodland Poke bowls for dinner every few days, I buy my same food I buy at home sans some special fish they will have. Food is net zero for the week compared to home. Gas is way higher there but a tank usually covers me for the entire two week trips (also hitting Kauai this year too for big time cheap). I have two different friends that live there where I can crash, and then I have a good friend with timeshare who will usually break me off a week a year. Biggest expense for me is putting my dog in the kennel/vet for the time I'm gone. Colleagues, etc, make comments and I'm like dude it's cheaper for me to go there compared to anywhere else possible. My friends have surf boards and snorkel rigs for me to use. It's rad.

Gas isn't a big deal for me since the DD is a cheap EV. I use half a tank a month in the truck in the winter. Once riding season hits and I'm riding the bikes, and the PWC at the lake, I'll do $100 or so a month for 6-8 months. Annual gas spending is under a grand. Kwh for the DD is basically free due to panels. But I was definitely curious how you were able to jack them so hard. That's some gangster **** right there you're pulling. One of my friends in Maui makes around 30k per year at one job, and then side hustles recycles, and on the odd occasion he'll uber one day a month. His rent is $1700 a month (ironically it costs the same to rent an apt around my hood) and I'm amazed at the **** he does to stretch a dollar. He's the biggest miser I have ever met, drives a 2019 Honda Fit he bought new, and let me tell you, he can stretch a dollar like a rubber band. He's a glorified janitor for a property and I wouldn't want to live the way he does. But he wakes up at 2am to go to work, works 4 hours, then takes a surf break at dawn for a few hours, then goes back to work for 3-4 more hours. Lives cheap AF, but he lives in paradise and surfs every day of the year sans rain or no waves coming in. He is a class study in flipping the bird at normal life in the US.

And kudos to what you are doing. I had to raise myself since 5 and started working at 10 so I know what those children would have to go through if you and your wife weren't' doing this. I hope God is looking out for all of you because you deserve it.

[Blitzkrieg]

Originally Posted by Pre

Slick work. I'm a Costco guy. Love the place. They have the best quality fish (my primary protein and means something when you consume 200-225 gr per day of it) around here, high quality organic fruit. And they have the best gasoline around, Tier 1 fuel. And fuel there can go up to fifty centers cheaper per gallon than the gas stations, depending on the time of year. Minimum 20 cents a gallon cheaper. Then I get a check from Costco annually for a few hundred.

I do your trick with an AA MC. It yields me two flights per year to Maui to visit my friends that live there and surf the entire time (and some snorkeling). I only pay a small fee for foot room or an exit row, flights are free. Then I rent an older vehicle from a local car rental spot that is a secret, so half the price of Avis, Hertz, etc. They have a Costco there so outside of Foodland Poke bowls for dinner every few days, I buy my same food I buy at home sans some special fish they will have. Food is net zero for the week compared to home. Gas is way higher there but a tank usually covers me for the entire two week trips (also hitting Kauai this year too for big time cheap). I have two different friends that live there where I can crash, and then I have a good friend with timeshare who will usually break me off a week a year. Biggest expense for me is putting my dog in the kennel/vet for the time I'm gone. Colleagues, etc, make comments and I'm like dude it's cheaper for me to go there compared to anywhere else possible. My friends have surf boards and snorkel rigs for me to use. It's rad.

Gas isn't a big deal for me since the DD is a cheap EV. I use half a tank a month in the truck in the winter. Once riding season hits and I'm riding the bikes, and the PWC at the lake, I'll do $100 or so a month for 6-8 months. Annual gas spending is under a grand. Kwh for the DD is basically free due to panels. But I was definitely curious how you were able to jack them so hard. That's some gangster **** right there you're pulling. One of my friends in Maui makes around 30k per year at one job, and then side hustles recycles, and on the odd occasion he'll uber one day a month. His rent is $1700 a month (ironically it costs the same to rent an apt around my hood) and I'm amazed at the **** he does to stretch a dollar. He's the biggest miser I have ever met, drives a 2019 Honda Fit he bought new, and let me tell you, he can stretch a dollar like a rubber band. He's a glorified janitor for a property and I wouldn't want to live the way he does. But he wakes up at 2am to go to work, works 4 hours, then takes a surf break at dawn for a few hours, then goes back to work for 3-4 more hours. Lives cheap AF, but he lives in paradise and surfs every day of the year sans rain or no waves coming in. He is a class study in flipping the bird at normal life in the US.

And kudos to what you are doing. I had to raise myself since 5 and started working at 10 so I know what those children would have to go through if you and your wife weren't' doing this. I hope God is looking out for all of you because you deserve it.

The exhaustion, fatigue, and tough hard life moments are well worth the overall reward of seeing kids totally changed and moving forward.

Enjoy your Costco gas. Heading there tomorrow for the free samples and whatever useless things that we need 10X over. hahaha

[juanmedina]

This turned into a Mr. Mustache thread lol.

BEV share of global vehicles sale is now at 6.1% from 3% in 2020. Will it more than double in 2022 ?

[Blitzkrieg]

Originally Posted by juanmedina

This turned into a Mr. Mustache thread lol.

BEV share of global vehicles sale is now at 6.1% from 3% in 2020. Will it more than double in 2022 ?

Depends more on Europe heavy fisted regulations. Then again, who in the world knows what stupid regulations will come out in the next year with current party in charge.

I wish the states would pour all the funds into establishing a more robust grid with key chargers every so 150 miles between major cities. Just placing them in key cities would force major strip malls to form in the middle of no where. who knows what fun attractions we could see like the old route 66. I mean it may make the states a more fun place to road travel. Like the good old days vs sardined In a flying can with A mask.