My tuning experience: Why TGV and EGR deletes are a must

[rufus819]

Originally Posted by jobber

This is what stage 2 with TGV deletes gives you.. if you like this video, you can see there are 359 more videos on this car also.

Mods:
Cobb Catted Resonated Pipe
Torqued Performance Stage 2 tune (91 octane)
TGV deletes, EGR deletes

Made 30 mins ago..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCQb5T2eN6M

Here's a good question for you since I've followed your channel for some time, you've used 2 E-tuners correct? Both Brentuning and Torqued Performance? Is that Dyno chart from just a dyno pull session or from a Protune? Those numbers from your chart look awfully low, but then again I often forget that you west coasters run on 91 and not 93 like we do over here on the east coast. Why not take the drive down to Cobb Socal or Cobb Surgeline (I understand both are quite a drive from SF) or Equillibrium tuning? Your dyno charts look like you are leaving so much on the table unless you wanted it that way. I'm just confused since I'm pulling higher numbers with my Stage 1 with deletes than you are with Stage 2 with deletes, and I was tuned on a Mustang Dyno which typically reads lower than a Dynojet will. I also can't imagine the difference in Octane makes that big of a difference in power, I used to have a 2008 Spec.B that was stage 2 that I had tuned both out here on the East Coast @ EFI logics on 93 to a number of 268whp/308tq and when I was stationed out in California I was tuned by Crawford Performance on 91 to a number of 262whp/300tq. Not making any attacks at you, just curious as to why your numbers are so low.

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[tank the ek]

Every dyno, engine, tune is different. Every car provides different feedback to a tuner, and each tuner perceives it similarly, but with their own parameters of safeness, and their respective dynos only allow a real life simulation of the vehicle on the road, but with different evaluations. The dyno should be seen less of a benchmark to measure one engine/vehicles performance to another(because of the wide array of factors) and more so of a tool for that tuner to properly dial in engine parameters to their comfort level.

Wherever his respective tuner set his engine to perform, is where that tuner was comfortable from that data he was given. And that tuners' dyno was simply a monitoring tool he used along the way to help him dial in the engine.

It's really not about peak numbers(unless you're looking to make a dyno Queen). It's more about repeatability, and longevity, and we have to remember, that although some perceive dyno numbers as bragging rights or a claim to fame, that chart is a resource for the tuner, and can do nothing for the driver, other than create understanding and familiarity of where the engine will perform its best.

[Sillo]

^This x1000

[djemzine]

Good thread dude. Definitely useful. I'm glad I purchased my deletes. I won't be doing the Jpipe route mainly of not destroying the transmission.

Have you also considered an AOS to also reduce or somewhat avoid carbon buildup? Seems to go well with the deletes.

My goal is probably 250whp and I'll call it a day. Don't want to risk that transmission going kaput down the road.

[Sillo]

CVT or MT?

[rufus819]

Originally Posted by tank the ek

Every dyno, engine, tune is different. Every car provides different feedback to a tuner, and each tuner perceives it similarly, but with their own parameters of safeness, and their respective dynos only allow a real life simulation of the vehicle on the road, but with different evaluations. The dyno should be seen less of a benchmark to measure one engine/vehicles performance to another(because of the wide array of factors) and more so of a tool for that tuner to properly dial in engine parameters to their comfort level.

Wherever his respective tuner set his engine to perform, is where that tuner was comfortable from that data he was given. And that tuners' dyno was simply a monitoring tool he used along the way to help him dial in the engine.

It's really not about peak numbers(unless you're looking to make a dyno Queen). It's more about repeatability, and longevity, and we have to remember, that although some perceive dyno numbers as bragging rights or a claim to fame, that chart is a resource for the tuner, and can do nothing for the driver, other than create understanding and familiarity of where the engine will perform its best.

I understand that but those numbers are ultra conservative. Those are numbers that are slightly above what a Cobb OTS Stage 1 map will give you, that's really what I'm most curious about. I'd like to know what his goals were and what not etc.

Myself I wanted drivability with a noticable improvement over stock in all forms, power, torque, throttle response etc. My goal is when I go Stage 2 the same but with even more of what I want, which is why I'm going to do intercooler and J-pipe together. My goal is 300HP, why? because I love the difference in power between this FA20 and what my SpecB had with the EJ255T and how the same mods I've done to both are netting me bigger gains.

[Sillo]

You're missing the point where 300 on one dyno =/= 300 on another.

AFAIK he's also never dynoed his car. Just used VD.

[rufus819]

ohhhh I missed the VD part of his chart, all I saw earlier was that it said Dynojet. Either way I would recommend getting a Protune done either on the dyno or via Roadtune by a reputable tuner, a few hours and you're good to go vs. doing Etunes and having to do revision after revision. BrenTuning is great from everyone I know who has used him for their E-tunes, but just about every one of them went on to get tuned in person at either EFI , Prime Motoring or Precision.

With that said on dynos, on EFI's old Mustang Dyno I put down 275/309. A few weeks ago I was with some friends at Precision tuning hanging out so I had them put my car on their dyno for a pull, which is a dynojet and a much newer one, I put down 287/320. So I'm aware of the differences. Even mustang dyno to mustang dyno doesn't read the same. Mikey was telling me the shopct's Mustang reads way lower than EFI's does.

[tank the ek]

^^^youre aware that all dynos read differently, all tunes are different, and all engines are different. Yet, you still are critical in the numbers that are provided.

The ONLY comparison worth evaluating is the original vehicles dyno(unmodified) and the vehicles dyno after modification. Comparing any other car to another via their respective dyno graph is pointless. I THINK Grimmspeed baseline dyno'd their 2015 WRX BELOW 200whp. Does that mean the 2015 has below 200 WHP? No. It means their SAMPLE provides below 200 WHP, and their adjustments/modifications are a percentage change from that baseline. Without Jobber's baseline VD, evaluating his modifications is pointless, because you can't observe the % of difference between before and after.

[n2oiroc]

Originally Posted by tank the ek

^^^youre aware that all dynos read differently, all tunes are different, and all engines are different. Yet, you still are critical in the numbers that are provided.

The ONLY comparison worth evaluating is the original vehicles dyno(unmodified) and the vehicles dyno after modification. Comparing any other car to another via their respective dyno graph is pointless. I THINK Grimmspeed baseline dyno'd their 2015 WRX BELOW 200whp. Does that mean the 2015 has below 200 WHP? No. It means their SAMPLE provides below 200 WHP, and their adjustments/modifications are a percentage change from that baseline. Without Jobber's baseline VD, evaluating his modifications is pointless, because you can't observe the % of difference between before and after.

to add to this, everyone needs to take any dyno gains with a grain of salt from every vendor out there. time and time again we see outlandish claims for 15whp and 30 wtq for a single part, yet not one person in the real world will see half that. every single vendor lies.

[rufus819]

Originally Posted by tank the ek

^^^youre aware that all dynos read differently, all tunes are different, and all engines are different. Yet, you still are critical in the numbers that are provided.

The ONLY comparison worth evaluating is the original vehicles dyno(unmodified) and the vehicles dyno after modification. Comparing any other car to another via their respective dyno graph is pointless. I THINK Grimmspeed baseline dyno'd their 2015 WRX BELOW 200whp. Does that mean the 2015 has below 200 WHP? No. It means their SAMPLE provides below 200 WHP, and their adjustments/modifications are a percentage change from that baseline. Without Jobber's baseline VD, evaluating his modifications is pointless, because you can't observe the % of difference between before and after.

Critical? I'm asking him what his intentions and desires of from his car, because ultimate all those other things don't mean a thing if that's not what the driver wants. I'm keeping an open mind, just making an observation and asking him about what he wanted out of his car, since you know he's plugging his youtube channel and video in my thread and all.

[djemzine]

Originally Posted by Sillo

CVT or MT?

CVT transmission

[tank the ek]

Originally Posted by rufus819

Critical? I'm asking him what his intentions and desires of from his car, because ultimate all those other things don't mean a thing if that's not what the driver wants. I'm keeping an open mind, just making an observation and asking him about what he wanted out of his car, since you know he's plugging his youtube channel and video in my thread and all.

You stated his numbers are "low in comparison". I'm just saying you can't compare his car to anything but his car.

No hate/Ill intent man.

I think his videos are nice for familiarity of the 2015 WRX. He does set promote a lot, and unless there are rules against it, I don't see anything wrong with it. Although, it's apparent he wants people to watch his videos. And they're nice for checking out how everything is put together.

Big ups to him for his enthusiasm and information.

But again, comparisons via a dyno, whichever brand and format, only hold value when there is a baseline, and a Followup evaluation using the same exact method as the first evaluation, after the modification. Other than that, comparing different cars in different regions from different tuners, having different levels of comfort and intentions, with different climates, is pointless.

My point is, his numbers may seem low in comparison to others with similar mods, but all that truly matters are his percentage of change from baseline to current mods. If you'd like to compare the percentages at the point, then you'd be discussing the difference in different tuner theory's for success, and how they classify success independently.

[rufus819]

What i was comparing to was the 2015 dyno thread where many cars with the same mods he has are making 280+ on various dynos all over the country. Yes each dyno reads different but with many people doing the same modifcations it becomes predictable of what power you'll make, give or take by 10hp. VD is not a good way to indicate what you're making, that's why i ask what his desires are from the car

[-Raven-]

Originally Posted by rufus819

What i was comparing to was the 2015 dyno thread where many cars with the same mods he has are making 280+ on various dynos all over the country. Yes each dyno reads different but with many people doing the same modifcations it becomes predictable of what power you'll make, give or take by 10hp. VD is not a good way to indicate what you're making, that's why i ask what his desires are from the car

VD is a great way to indicate what you're making. It shows you exactly what you are making. Why do you say otherwise?

Take the results for the dyno's of different cars as a grain of salt. There are sooooo many variables it's not funny. Same car on the same dyno will make different power on a different day. Even back to back runs will give you different power....

[playslikepage71]

Originally Posted by rufus819

What i was comparing to was the 2015 dyno thread where many cars with the same mods he has are making 280+ on various dynos all over the country. Yes each dyno reads different but with many people doing the same modifcations it becomes predictable of what power you'll make, give or take by 10hp. VD is not a good way to indicate what you're making, that's why i ask what his desires are from the car

VD data is pretty much as repeatable as dyno pulls, if you consider all of the factors that go in to it. If you use the same stretch of relatively flat road every time, you'll be able to compare data the same way. Using the argument that you are estimating a few variables (CRF, CdA, loaded weight, and tire size) is a straw-man, because you keep them consistent between runs.

Every dyno reads different, and most dynos scale differently. Anyone using an eddy current or AC motoring dyno has load cells, and I don't know about you, but I highly doubt most shops are paying for calibrations regularly. Inertial dynomometers are the only truly comparable dynos (VD is pretty much this).

Even then, temperature and humidity come into play, which SAE has corrections for but those are really only in regards to the change in the intake air and not charge air cooler performance. Honestly, the ability to drive around and let the car stabilize in the real airflow (vs fans on a dyno) before making the pull will give you better consistency in that regard.

[rufus819]

Originally Posted by playslikepage71

VD data is pretty much as repeatable as dyno pulls, if you consider all of the factors that go in to it. If you use the same stretch of relatively flat road every time, you'll be able to compare data the same way. Using the argument that you are estimating a few variables (CRF, CdA, loaded weight, and tire size) is a straw-man, because you keep them consistent between runs.



Every dyno reads different, and most dynos scale differently. Anyone using an eddy current or AC motoring dyno has load cells, and I don't know about you, but I highly doubt most shops are paying for calibrations regularly. Inertial dynomometers are the only truly comparable dynos (VD is pretty much this).



Even then, temperature and humidity come into play, which SAE has corrections for but those are really only in regards to the change in the intake air and not charge air cooler performance. Honestly, the ability to drive around and let the car stabilize in the real airflow (vs fans on a dyno) before making the pull will give you better consistency in that regard.

TL;DR

If you're trying to tell me that getting an E-tune and a VD is just as informative as getting a real time pro tune on an actual dyno, that's a bold statement. What would be nice is a response from jobber himself on what he wanted out of his tune instead of other people speaking for him that don't drive his car.

Me personally, if I spent all that money on parts like he has from what i've seen on his channel, I'd have spent the $500 for a protune.

[AkotaHsky]

Originally Posted by rufus819

TL;DR

If you're trying to tell me that getting an E-tune and a VD is just as informative as getting a real time pro tune on an actual dyno, that's a bold statement. What would be nice is a response from jobber himself on what he wanted out of his tune instead of other people speaking for him that don't drive his car.

Me personally, if I spent all that money on parts like he has from what i've seen on his channel, I'd have spent the $500 for a protune.

You do know not all pro-tunes require a dyno right? A dyno is just more or less a tool for tuning. You can also have a tuner street-tune instead of dyno-tune the car. This helps them also see drive ability and puts the car in the elements it will be driving in every day..

[rufus819]

You do know the poster whom I'm addressing has used 2 different E-tunes and not an actual real time protune (road or dyno) right? He's based out of San Francisco, but used BrenTuning for his first tune, who is based out of Boston, and TorquedPerformance for his other one, whom is based out of Oregon.

[AkotaHsky]

Originally Posted by rufus819

You do know the poster whom I'm addressing has used 2 different E-tunes and not an actual real time protune (road or dyno) right? He's based out of San Francisco, but used BrenTuning for his first tune, who is based out of Boston, and TorquedPerformance for his other one, whom is based out of Oregon.

ETunes are not far off from getting one in person these days. I will admit using VD is like shaking a magic 8 ball. The only time VD would be useful is you used it for a baseline and once you got tuned/modded. Even then, you still need to go into it and adjust for weight/temps/etc to be truly close. Even at that point, it will only show you a gain of power from stock vs tuned/modded, but should not be taken as a "My car made over 9000 hp!!" statement.

[playslikepage71]

Originally Posted by AkotaHsky

ETunes are not far off from getting one in person these days. I will admit using VD is like shaking a magic 8 ball. The only time VD would be useful is you used it for a baseline and once you got tuned/modded. Even then, you still need to go into it and adjust for weight/temps/etc to be truly close. Even at that point, it will only show you a gain of power from stock vs tuned/modded, but should not be taken as a "My car made over 9000 hp!!" statement.

No dyno should be used like that unless it's at an accredited laboratory with precision calibrated equipment.

I think the quality of the E-tune is fully dependent on your tuner and the amount of work you and they are willing to put in to it. some people get 3 revisions and call it good. My experience has been many many revisions.

A dyno tune is only better than a road tune if you spend a whole lot of time calibrating the car at different loads and speeds (like a day or more) and then still go test it on the street.

[tank the ek]

Originally Posted by playslikepage71

No dyno should be used like that unless it's at an accredited laboratory with precision calibrated equipment.

I think the quality of the E-tune is fully dependent on your tuner and the amount of work you and they are willing to put in to it. some people get 3 revisions and call it good. My experience has been many many revisions.

A dyno tune is only better than a road tune if you spend a whole lot of time calibrating because you can accurately adjust and monitor the engine and how it responds at different loads and speeds safely and rapidly. (like a day or more) and then still go test it on the street. A roadtest while monitoring a few ecu values will substantiate the stability of the tune on the road

Fixed.

[n2oiroc]

A dyno tune is never as good, they just dont load the same.

[arghx7]

A lot of it depends what dyno you are using and what mode you put it in. Controlling rpm ramp rate with the dyno brake is a lot more consistent than just slamming the gas pedal on an inertia dyno for example.

[Cisco Kidd]

Originally Posted by rufus819

TL;DR

If you're trying to tell me that getting an E-tune and a VD is just as informative as getting a real time pro tune on an actual dyno, that's a bold statement. What would be nice is a response from jobber himself on what he wanted out of his tune instead of other people speaking for him that don't drive his car.

Me personally, if I spent all that money on parts like he has from what i've seen on his channel, I'd have spent the $500 for a protune.

I think he has answered your question in the past as it has been asked several times. He does not want to spend the money on pro tune, he is happy with the power he has, he is constantly changing things and highly unlikely he will remain at one power level for a long time before he just wants to do something different. I am not trying to answer for him just paraphrasing what he has basically said, the guy has done over 400+ videos to date, he cant get enough.

Similar to him I don't have a Pro tuner or a Cobb super close to myself, it is a good 6 hr drive, as much as I want to get there the odds are I will nto be doing it anytime soon so I am opting for Etune service from TP and already paid for a 92 US tune and a Chevron 94 Cnd tune so I can flip back and forth between tunes. I just need to determine if I want to install the MAP intake I have or if I stay stock intake and add the TS TGV's w egr delete, crawford aos, prl chargepipe kit and MAP catted dp and my gs ebcs