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Old 01-13-2021, 11:26 AM   #3626
heavyD
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Fast is relative. If you have been driving nothing but Subarus you may think a WRX or STI is fast. If you have driven even a V6 Camry you would know that they are not fast and downright slow compared to a lot of vehicles these day. The 5-60 mph times for the WRX and STI are extremely pedestrian as the Veloster N 5-60 time is only 5.5 seconds and for all intents and purposes is faster than anything Subaru offers today. Veloster N with DCT is legit fast for a FWD car;

https://www.caranddriver.com/hyundai/veloster-n
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Old 01-13-2021, 01:09 PM   #3627
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Drivers race in a straight line.
thank you for that. I didn't realize that a minivan might not handle as well as a wrx.
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Old 01-13-2021, 01:41 PM   #3628
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Originally Posted by heavyD View Post
Fast is relative. If you have been driving nothing but Subarus you may think a WRX or STI is fast. If you have driven even a V6 Camry you would know that they are not fast and downright slow compared to a lot of vehicles these day. The 5-60 mph times for the WRX and STI are extremely pedestrian as the Veloster N 5-60 time is only 5.5 seconds and for all intents and purposes is faster than anything Subaru offers today. Veloster N with DCT is legit fast for a FWD car;

https://www.caranddriver.com/hyundai/veloster-n
Things are even worse when you factor in places that do not have at least 93 AKI gas at the pump.
The stock tuned EJ257 falls further behind on Cali 91 compared to almost everything else on the market today.
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Old 01-13-2021, 02:19 PM   #3629
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Originally Posted by SupersayianNeo View Post
As an owner of a 2020 STI, I can say that it is slow. I was coming from a 2009 WRX of 12 reliable years with a OTS map within the first 1000 miles. My WRX felt just as fast as my STI. I knew what I was getting into. MY20 STI is a better car since it has many more years of refinement. If I want it faster, I will add basic bolt ons and a protune. I'm not looking for a fast car, just something enough for me....but I have to say, the handling compared to MY09 WRX is light years.
The 09 WRX was a "hot rod" that I don't think Subaru intended. They wanted to fix the 08 WRX but made it faster than the STI at the time. I want to recall 4.6-4.7 0-60 times. Things got slightly slower once they made the WRX a widebody.
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Old 01-13-2021, 03:01 PM   #3630
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The 09 WRX was a "hot rod" that I don't think Subaru intended. They wanted to fix the 08 WRX but made it faster than the STI at the time. I want to recall 4.6-4.7 0-60 times. Things got slightly slower once they made the WRX a widebody.
Yes, Car and Driver managed 4.7:

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...ake-road-test/

They also pointed out a couple reasons why the STI was slower in x-to-60 metrics: 180 extra pounds vs. the WRX and an additional shift needed to reach 60. Not that that excuses the erosion of differentiation between the two, but the acceleration numbers alone didn't tell the whole story.
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Old 01-13-2021, 03:08 PM   #3631
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We were handing out cheap SPT exhausts and everything else to appease the angry Subaruists back then. It was a real campaign of hair on fire. Good times.
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Old 01-13-2021, 04:15 PM   #3632
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We were handing out cheap SPT exhausts and everything else to appease the angry Subaruists back then. It was a real campaign of hair on fire. Good times.
It was interesting how quick they developed the 09 updates. Subaru tried to target two markets with one car (JDM S-GT and North American WRX)...not to mention the whole development of the hatch for WRC that was so short lived. The 08 WRX was really an odd duckling within the WRX model years.
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Old 01-13-2021, 05:41 PM   #3633
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Originally Posted by heavyD View Post
Fast is relative. If you have been driving nothing but Subarus you may think a WRX or STI is fast. If you have driven even a V6 Camry you would know that they are not fast and downright slow compared to a lot of vehicles these day. The 5-60 mph times for the WRX and STI are extremely pedestrian as the Veloster N 5-60 time is only 5.5 seconds and for all intents and purposes is faster than anything Subaru offers today. Veloster N with DCT is legit fast for a FWD car;

https://www.caranddriver.com/hyundai/veloster-n
Without getting way into my gripes with the Camry comparisons...

I can say I agree that WRX and especially STI are behind where they should be today in terms of raw performance. I blame Americans/Dealerships/SUVs. If people still had any interest in cars, there would be more competition to the WRX and STI. Alas, there is almost none of either. So why would Subaru reach for more?

Meanwhile, at NASIOC, the consensus is that the only plausible next step for WRX/STI is a small power bump with always predicted but never before seen massive price increase.
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Old 01-14-2021, 11:08 AM   #3634
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Without getting way into my gripes with the Camry comparisons...

I can say I agree that WRX and especially STI are behind where they should be today in terms of raw performance. I blame Americans/Dealerships/SUVs. If people still had any interest in cars, there would be more competition to the WRX and STI. Alas, there is almost none of either. So why would Subaru reach for more?
The problem with the Camry comparison (I'm also one of the people making it) is that the Camry has come a long way since the early 00's where Subaru has been fairly stagnant performance-wise in the USDM since they dropped the WRX and STi in the early 00's. At the same time however, that argument goes both ways, where Subaru has been resting on their performance laurels, other brands "vanilla" vehicles are catching up, have caught up, or have exceeded the WRX/STi, at least in a straight line sense.
The WRX and STi aren't the same cars anymore, they used to be lightweight economy cars with performance bits slapped on and deliver a more raw driving experience, now they are bloated and comfortable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fredzy View Post
Meanwhile, at NASIOC, the consensus is that the only plausible next step for WRX/STI is a small power bump with always predicted but never before seen massive price increase.
I mean look at how they have "improved" since their inception, you can understand why everyone thinks that's what Subaru is going to do, because it's what they have done for the past nearly two decades.
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Old 01-14-2021, 11:26 AM   #3635
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Originally Posted by Sid03SVT View Post
...where Subaru has been fairly stagnant performance-wise in the USDM...
Were Subaru actually stagnant the STI would be much faster than it is. They really dialed down... something... after settling the ringland lawsuits. It can't be a coincidence that the EJ is both much slower AND seemingly much less likely to explode now.

If the 2020 STI were just as fast in a straight line as an early STI it would still be a very compelling car despite the nearly decade old interior design. Instead it's a lot slower.
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Old 01-14-2021, 11:31 AM   #3636
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Accounting for inflation, the cheapest Camry V6 from 2004 (22.3k in 2004 equates to about 30k now) is essentially the same price as the current entry level V6 model (Camry TRD V6).

The STI meanwhile is approximately 17% cheaper than the 2004 model (assuming you even could have bought one without dealer markup back then).

A secondary point here is that the Camry has a larger production run, and does not utilize any specialized components when compared to any other fwd Toyota platform.

Point being, the STI has specialized drivetrain components not used elsewhere by Subaru, and those components are produced in low volumes. Economies of scale don't work in favor for Subaru as much.

Back to the current cost of the STI, if they just made the base price of the next model 44-46k, and kept the same non-performance features as the existing base model, I'm certain they could sell a 375hp+ sti with a electronically controlled rear lsd.
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Old 01-14-2021, 11:53 AM   #3637
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Originally Posted by fathatch View Post
Accounting for inflation, the cheapest Camry V6 from 2004 (22.3k in 2004 equates to about 30k now) is essentially the same price as the current entry level V6 model (Camry TRD V6).

The STI meanwhile is approximately 17% cheaper than the 2004 model (assuming you even could have bought one without dealer markup back then).

A secondary point here is that the Camry has a larger production run, and does not utilize any specialized components when compared to any other fwd Toyota platform.

Point being, the STI has specialized drivetrain components not used elsewhere by Subaru, and those components are produced in low volumes. Economies of scale don't work in favor for Subaru as much.

Back to the current cost of the STI, if they just made the base price of the next model 44-46k, and kept the same non-performance features as the existing base model, I'm certain they could sell a 375hp+ sti with a electronically controlled rear lsd.
Itís also been decontented to go along with that price decrease.

Where is the mechanical center diff? Where is the IC sprayer? Where are the BBS wheels? Special thinner glass? Ha!

The early STIs were legitimately special cars and the price made sense. The current one isnít nearly the one-off that those were.

The veloster n has extra stitch wields added to its body in white prior to production. Subaru isnít doing anything like that on their current cars - even the S209.
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Old 01-14-2021, 01:51 PM   #3638
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Originally Posted by JP Chestnut View Post
Itís also been decontented to go along with that price decrease.

Where is the mechanical center diff? Where is the IC sprayer? Where are the BBS wheels? Special thinner glass? Ha!

The early STIs were legitimately special cars and the price made sense. The current one isnít nearly the one-off that those were.

The veloster n has extra stitch wields added to its body in white prior to production. Subaru isnít doing anything like that on their current cars - even the S209.
They also took away sodium-filled exhaust valves after MY2006.
Then they brought them back with the s209 engine like it was some brand new thing from the future .
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Old 01-14-2021, 01:56 PM   #3639
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Originally Posted by neg_matnik View Post
They also took away sodium-filled exhaust valves after MY2006.
Then they brought them back with the s209 engine like it was some brand new thing from the future .
Those early cars were so advanced for their time/price. A modern equivalent would probably have a variable vane turbo or something like that.
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Old 01-14-2021, 02:48 PM   #3640
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Those early cars were so advanced for their time/price. A modern equivalent would probably have a variable vane turbo or something like that.
IMO, the STI should have gone with the MY2010+ LGT turbo setup (single scroll), which is basically the same setup the FA2XDIT is using today (twin scroll).
Getting the turbo closer to the exhaust ports is such an improvement compared to the current EJ257 setup.
It's a cleaner setup too because the cat also gets closer to the ports, lights up faster and functions more efficiently overall (probably doesn't need to be as restrictive as a cat that is further away).
Anyway, Subaru has known all of these things for over a decade now.
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Old 01-14-2021, 02:49 PM   #3641
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Originally Posted by JP Chestnut View Post
Itís also been decontented to go along with that price decrease.

Where is the mechanical center diff? Where is the IC sprayer? Where are the BBS wheels? Special thinner glass? Ha!

The early STIs were legitimately special cars and the price made sense. The current one isnít nearly the one-off that those were.

The veloster n has extra stitch wields added to its body in white prior to production. Subaru isnít doing anything like that on their current cars - even the S209.
But they added a stereo and speakers (2005+), more badges, heated seats, half Recaros. They will take away the wing for free.

I miss the gold BBSs.
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Old 01-14-2021, 02:54 PM   #3642
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But they added a stereo and speakers (2005+), more badges, heated seats, half Recaros. They will take away the wing for free.

I miss the gold BBSs.
Those half Recaro seats are terrible. Theyíre so low quality.
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Old 01-14-2021, 02:55 PM   #3643
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Fender, window, door, bumber height all doubled. Price decreased. Success!
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Old 01-14-2021, 03:14 PM   #3644
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Those half Recaro seats are terrible. Theyíre so low quality.
But it has the Recaro stitched in the seat. Street cred. Seriously, I don't know why Subaru can't offer Recaros offered in the Mustang. They meet all the airbag safety requirements. Heck, I wish they just put the BRZ seats in the WRX/STI.
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Old 01-14-2021, 03:25 PM   #3645
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But it has the Recaro stitched in the seat. Street cred. Seriously, I don't know why Subaru can't offer Recaros offered in the Mustang. They meet all the airbag safety requirements. Heck, I wish they just put the BRZ seats in the WRX/STI.
I'm actually really surprised that Recaro touts those seats on their website. If those were the only Recaros that you've ever experienced, you would think the brand sucks. At a cost of over $2,000 on the base STI Recaro must be getting some good money out of the deal.
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Old 01-14-2021, 03:30 PM   #3646
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I can say I agree that WRX and especially STI are behind where they should be today in terms of raw performance. I blame Americans/Dealerships/SUVs. If people still had any interest in cars, there would be more competition to the WRX and STI.
Well.. that was someone's dumb decision to drop the hatch instead of dropping the sedan.. most of the competitors are hot hatches.

I think a turbo (and I mean true fast turbo) Crosstrek with hood scoop and a big spoiler would outsell the WRX+STI combined.
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Old 01-14-2021, 07:32 PM   #3647
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Originally Posted by MtnXfreeride View Post
Well.. that was someone's dumb decision to drop the hatch instead of dropping the sedan.. most of the competitors are hot hatches.

I think a turbo (and I mean true fast turbo) Crosstrek with hood scoop and a big spoiler would outsell the WRX+STI combined.
Unfortunately it's the majority of Subaru owners who dictated the sedan over the hatch. Have we forgotten why the 2011 STI came back with a sedan variant? And even today people still keeping buying the sedans like they're going out of style... which, I mean, where the rest of the industry is concerned, they are, but where Subaru is concerned it seems like they're continuing with the sedan.

After watching the latest episode of Launch Control I'm kind of hoping the next STI is truly separated from the WRX because Subaru needs something smaller and lighter to rally with.
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Old 01-14-2021, 07:42 PM   #3648
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Originally Posted by subyski View Post
But it has the Recaro stitched in the seat. Street cred. Seriously, I don't know why Subaru can't offer Recaros offered in the Mustang. They meet all the airbag safety requirements. Heck, I wish they just put the BRZ seats in the WRX/STI.
Test drove a GT350 with Recaros and those are some seriously supportive racing seats! Truth be told, my large self didnít fit well but I accept the functionality. I think it would be painful for any lengthy road trip. I fit much better in the STi ďRecarosĒ. I donít care if if they are fake lol.
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Old 01-14-2021, 08:44 PM   #3649
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Test drove a GT350 with Recaros and those are some seriously supportive racing seats! Truth be told, my large self didnít fit well but I accept the functionality. I think it would be painful for any lengthy road trip. I fit much better in the STi ďRecarosĒ. I donít care if if they are fake lol.
That's the one complaint about the Mustang Recaros but that's the point of an option. The stock Mustang seats are not awful either. I can't help to think the base Mustang seats are generally equivalent to the Subaru Recaros. But really, they build good non-recaro seats in the BRZ.
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Old 01-15-2021, 01:21 AM   #3650
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But they added a stereo and speakers (2005+), more badges, heated seats, half Recaros. They will take away the wing for free.

I miss the gold BBSs.
The sad reality is this.

Remember the 2000ís, Fast and Festerment, and Civics with neon all underneath the car. Coffee can exhaust, big ghey ass wing on the back? FF to today, the STi is the replacement. Itís every teenagers wet dream, and they are 25, or 30 now, and instead of neon on it, some ricey mods, an overly loud exhaust, and itís slammed to the ground, even more so than stock. Oh and with that same ancient ass motor. Itís a joke at this point.
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