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Old 12-06-2020, 12:13 AM   #26
JustyWRC
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Originally Posted by gathermewool View Post
I***8217;ll always have a capable AWD vehicle for the really nasty days, and that will likely always be a Subaru. I drove my wife***8217;s FXT in the one white-out snow storm we***8217;ve had in a decade, leaving the Civic with snow tires I mentioned above at home. It was truly amazing flying by everyone on the highway, even with a bit of full-boost hooning. I was even able to stop and see if those who were stuck needed any help, then again flooring it up to speed again, just because I could.

Are you saying that anemic battery-only mileage will be even close to spec at 150-200k miles. I highly doubt it!

In the end, pathetic.



Pathetic compared to what? No other hybrid can do what the Crosstrek Hybrid can do. Everyone bitches and moans Subaru doesn't give them what they want. And when they put out a Hybrid that can do MANY things another hybrid can't, it's "pathetic"? If I were to just have to have a Hybrid, the Crosstrek is exactly what I'd want in one. Any other one would be a sacrifice of what I don't want to sacrifice. Ability.


And is there another fully AWD hybrid that gets better than this "anemic" Crosstrek EV only range?

And for the battery, I don't know; but, I've seen a couple articles in the past years take a decades old Prius and put it through the same tests they did when they were new and the differences weren't even worth mentioning. I haven't actually heard any major issues with old hybrid batteries. And, no, that doesn't mean there isn't any issues at all.


Have you heard of "all" these hybrids having crappy batteries after high miles? I'd figure it'd be a constant topic in some of these threads that talk about EV; but, I don't see much of that.
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Old 12-06-2020, 08:00 AM   #27
chanomatik
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I thought the point of a hybrid was to have a battery that assisted the ICE, not the other way around? Why would you want to drive with the battery only? Wouldn't that make it an EV, even though it's not meant to be an EV?
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Old 12-06-2020, 09:48 AM   #28
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I thought the point of a hybrid was to have a battery that assisted the ICE, not the other way around? Why would you want to drive with the battery only? Wouldn't that make it an EV, even though it's not meant to be an EV?
Hybrid yes, but this is a PHEV. So it is a gateway to an EV life. The point is to drive in EV-only as much as possible and only use gas when necessary (dead battery or power assistance). The gas engine is really sad and unenjoyable to use (not bc I prefer EV, but bc it is a rough sounding, slow, dinky engine).
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Old 12-06-2020, 11:13 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by JustyWRC View Post
Pathetic compared to what? No other hybrid can do what the Crosstrek Hybrid can do. Everyone bitches and moans Subaru doesn't give them what they want. And when they put out a Hybrid that can do MANY things another hybrid can't, it's "pathetic"? If I were to just have to have a Hybrid, the Crosstrek is exactly what I'd want in one. Any other one would be a sacrifice of what I don't want to sacrifice. Ability.


And is there another fully AWD hybrid that gets better than this "anemic" Crosstrek EV only range?

And for the battery, I don't know; but, I've seen a couple articles in the past years take a decades old Prius and put it through the same tests they did when they were new and the differences weren't even worth mentioning. I haven't actually heard any major issues with old hybrid batteries. And, no, that doesn't mean there isn't any issues at all.


Have you heard of "all" these hybrids having crappy batteries after high miles? I'd figure it'd be a constant topic in some of these threads that talk about EV; but, I don't see much of that.
I***8217;m comparing it to what I would want in a vehicle, nothing more. There needs to be something more than 17 miles (less than that in the real world) for me to be interested in that. As I said, I see it as a detriment, considering, for my use case, it will likely run the engine every single day, but for very few miles/hours. I cannot see this as being good for longevity and don***8217;t want to be a guinea pig for Subaru to find out in however many miles it takes for something akin and on the same scale as previous-gen HG issues to occur.

Again, EVERY Subaru can do what this PHEV can do, so it***8217;s not special enough to warrant the additional cost and risk...for me.

I was wrong to say that the battery would crap out or need to be replaced or whatever I alluded to. It is true to say that batteries degrade over time. You can***8217;t possibly tell me that the rated EV-only mileage will be at, say 100k miles. I would be very surprised if it was close to 17 miles still. So, an EV-only range that already doesn***8217;t meet my needs will be even desirable after 100k miles. Subaru may be receiving some help and lessons-learned from Toyota, but they***8217;re still a relatively small company with very little experience with PHEV. I see this as more of a test vehicle than a flagship offering.

I***8217;ll repeat that this is for me. I***8217;m not interested in a BEV, yet. I am interested in PHEV***8217;s that offer EV-only range that will cover my normal commute for years to come, while also providing extended ICE range for everything else. I also won***8217;t be looking or another new or new-to-me vehicle for a while, so who knows, maybe the Crosstrek PHEV will offer 37 miles in another half decade or so...

Finally, I LOVE that Subaru is doing this and with them the best. I***8217;d love to give them my money when I***8217;m ready to move on to something else, possibly a PHEV and eventually a BEV for at least one of our vehicles. I think a Forester or even an Ascent-sized vehicle with 30 miles of actual EV-only range would be great for my wife, since we now live closer to the town and the vast majority of her needs and wants, range-wise, would be covered by something like that.
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Old 12-06-2020, 12:00 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by gathermewool View Post
I***8217;m comparing it to what I would want in a vehicle, nothing more. There needs to be something more than 17 miles (less than that in the real world) for me to be interested in that. As I said, I see it as a detriment, considering, for my use case, it will likely run the engine every single day, but for very few miles/hours. I cannot see this as being good for longevity and don***8217;t want to be a guinea pig for Subaru to find out in however many miles it takes for something akin and on the same scale as previous-gen HG issues to occur.

Again, EVERY Subaru can do what this PHEV can do, so it***8217;s not special enough to warrant the additional cost and risk...for me.

I was wrong to say that the battery would crap out or need to be replaced or whatever I alluded to. It is true to say that batteries degrade over time. You can***8217;t possibly tell me that the rated EV-only mileage will be at, say 100k miles. I would be very surprised if it was close to 17 miles still. So, an EV-only range that already doesn***8217;t meet my needs will be even desirable after 100k miles. Subaru may be receiving some help and lessons-learned from Toyota, but they***8217;re still a relatively small company with very little experience with PHEV. I see this as more of a test vehicle than a flagship offering.

I***8217;ll repeat that this is for me. I***8217;m not interested in a BEV, yet. I am interested in PHEV***8217;s that offer EV-only range that will cover my normal commute for years to come, while also providing extended ICE range for everything else. I also won***8217;t be looking or another new or new-to-me vehicle for a while, so who knows, maybe the Crosstrek PHEV will offer 37 miles in another half decade or so...

Finally, I LOVE that Subaru is doing this and with them the best. I***8217;d love to give them my money when I***8217;m ready to move on to something else, possibly a PHEV and eventually a BEV for at least one of our vehicles. I think a Forester or even an Ascent-sized vehicle with 30 miles of actual EV-only range would be great for my wife, since we now live closer to the town and the vast majority of her needs and wants, range-wise, would be covered by something like that.



Absolutely. What you want in a vehicle and it seems, in this case, the Crosstrek's abilities over other PHEVs isn't a priority.



You are mentioning the longevity of the system........
Are you forgetting this is ALL a proven Toyota hybrid system? I don't think anything of this one is Subaru. They just stuffed the Toyota guts in a Subaru shaped transmission.



I look at this car as getting "free" upgrades.....with the government rebates, it brings it almost to the price of a fully loaded Crosstrek.....but, now you have that better gas mileage. Improved performance. Unique look....exclusive color, exclusive interior, wheels(yeah, I know you can buy those).....and a heated steering wheel
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Old 12-06-2020, 02:45 PM   #31
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Totally worth the price for the heated steering wheel alone.

Fight me.
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Old 12-07-2020, 01:46 AM   #32
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The rear motor is only good for 53 hp. That motor relies on a battery pack. If the pack is near dead, then it is only receiving charge from the generator motor. That is sending a TINY amount of charge (it takes a long time to actually charge the battery). With hybrids (I've had 2015 XV Hybrid and 2019 Crosstrek PHEV), when the battery is dead or low you basically get "EV" propulsion in a parking lot until you tip in (at all) forcing the gas engine to start. So, as we know, in snow you tip in harder. Plus, the gas engine is only attached to the front axel in the Rav4 Prime. Will it work in slush or a dusting? Sure, but at that point the fronts probably have grip too.
I just think this is too simplistic of a view to be true. Toyota has been doing awd hybrids in various forms for a while now. I don't think they'd offer a system that can't power the rear wheels as needed.

Tire selection is going to have way more impact on inclement weather traction than part vs full time awd.
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Old 12-07-2020, 10:11 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by dwf137 View Post
I just think this is too simplistic of a view to be true. Toyota has been doing awd hybrids in various forms for a while now. I don't think they'd offer a system that can't power the rear wheels as needed.

Tire selection is going to have way more impact on inclement weather traction than part vs full time awd.
Watch 01:30 when the rears ONLY have traction. Watch 2:22 when only 1 rear tire has traction.

I do not know the battery charge state in these tests, but assume either way...


Last edited by Snow Drift; 12-07-2020 at 10:34 AM.
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Old 12-07-2020, 10:26 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by JustyWRC View Post
You are mentioning the longevity of the system........
Are you forgetting this is ALL a proven Toyota hybrid system? I don't think anything of this one is Subaru. They just stuffed the Toyota guts in a Subaru shaped transmission.
It uses Toyota and Subaru parts/engineering.

Subaru Planetary Gear CVT with Multi-Plate Transfer and driveshaft to rear (Subaru Active AWD)
Toyota Battery (Prius Prime)
Toyota Motor 1 (Camry Hybrid - Starts engine and allows engine to charge the battery)
Toyota Motor 2 (Prius Prime - Powers the car from the battery)

Last edited by Snow Drift; 12-07-2020 at 10:35 AM.
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Old 12-07-2020, 10:56 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by Snow Drift View Post
Watch 01:30 when the rears ONLY have traction. Watch 2:22 when only 1 rear tire has traction.

I do not know the battery charge state in these tests, but assume either way...

Toyota Highlander Hybrid AWD | Roller Test - YouTube
it's an on-road "FWD+" system - with more aggressive coding (eg. parameters to lock multiple wheels for a period of time) or with electronic/mechanical diffs it could have pulled itself off the three roller, but it was never designed to do that, I think it performed in a way that will be predictable for normal/average drivers, and the roller test indicates it can pull itself out of way more difficult situations ("0" traction at an entire axle) than it will ever see (as even on ice the coefficient of friction is greater than "0").

I think the inconsistency has to do with his throttle application - the more throttle he applies when the front axle is on the rollers, the more the rear axle kicks in.

Listening to the ABS system when he was on three rollers was interesting, the system is definitely working as intended.

He only got off the three rollers by changing the direction power was applied, eg. by increasing friction above 0 by turning the front wheels; not a knock against the vehicle, a "0" friction situation is not likely to be encountered in rear world scenarios by actual drivers (except maybe stuffing the front end in a snow bank which lifts it; the two roller test shows how the vehicle can pull itself out of that scenario).

I'm willing to bet the front wheel rollers are the rollers that got bent from that 3-roller scenario.
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Old 12-07-2020, 01:03 PM   #36
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it's an on-road "FWD+" system - with more aggressive coding (eg. parameters to lock multiple wheels for a period of time) or with electronic/mechanical diffs it could have pulled itself off the three roller, but it was never designed to do that, I think it performed in a way that will be predictable for normal/average drivers, and the roller test indicates it can pull itself out of way more difficult situations ("0" traction at an entire axle) than it will ever see (as even on ice the coefficient of friction is greater than "0").

I think the inconsistency has to do with his throttle application - the more throttle he applies when the front axle is on the rollers, the more the rear axle kicks in.

Listening to the ABS system when he was on three rollers was interesting, the system is definitely working as intended.

He only got off the three rollers by changing the direction power was applied, eg. by increasing friction above 0 by turning the front wheels; not a knock against the vehicle, a "0" friction situation is not likely to be encountered in rear world scenarios by actual drivers (except maybe stuffing the front end in a snow bank which lifts it; the two roller test shows how the vehicle can pull itself out of that scenario).

I'm willing to bet the front wheel rollers are the rollers that got bent from that 3-roller scenario.
Yes, but we're just trying to determine the capability of the rear axle, solely driven by battery. It just sat there, not able to adequately move the rear tires.

It doesn't look like the rear wheels ever had enough torque to do the job when the fronts were slipping. And this video could also be with a full battery. Now, deplete the battery to near zero and let's see what it does. Any tip in will attempt to primarily use the front wheels/gas engine. The rear axel/battery can't push all that weight when the fronts are slipping.
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Old 12-07-2020, 01:28 PM   #37
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Watch 01:30 when the rears ONLY have traction. Watch 2:22 when only 1 rear tire has traction.
Roller tests are garbage. They confuse the tcs and don't reflect real life. You will never have zero traction. Even on ice, there is friction. And like I stated earlier, tires will make a bigger difference than awd system type. Better tires, more traction, leaving roller tests far behind.

How about a video with real-life implications...


Compared to this: Start at 4:00 ish. (admittedly not the hybrid system, couldn't find one)


Last edited by dwf137; 12-07-2020 at 01:42 PM.
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Old 12-07-2020, 01:46 PM   #38
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Roller tests are garbage. They confuse the tcs and don't reflect real life. You will never have zero traction. Even on ice, there is friction. And like I stated earlier, tires will make a bigger difference than awd system type. Better tires, more traction, leaving roller tests far behind.

How about a video with real-life implications...

Toyota Highlander Hybrid AWD Diagonal test | Turn on TRAIL MODE! - YouTube

Compared to this: Start at 4:00 ish.

Diagonal AWD TEST: 2017 Subaru Crosstrek (XV) | Part 3/3 - YouTube
I'm not saying it will never work, but the Toyota battery only rear system isn't as robust as sending power to all 4 wheels via a center differential or MPT. You saw it in the Outlander video, the rears didn't move at all. If the fronts have zero traction, the car won't go anywhere. The CQ angle tests give traction to at least one front wheel, they are never both off the ground, so it's hard to compare to the rollers.

For the Crosstrek at 4:00, I can't tell what Mode 1 means, so I assume VDC was still on (bad). I'm not defending Active AWD vs. Viscous or DCCD, which are a lot better with locking center and sometimes rear differentials.
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Old 12-07-2020, 04:51 PM   #39
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I'm not saying it will never work, but the Toyota battery only rear system isn't as robust as sending power to all 4 wheels via a center differential or MPT. You saw it in the Outlander video, the rears didn't move at all. If the fronts have zero traction, the car won't go anywhere. The CQ angle tests give traction to at least one front wheel, they are never both off the ground, so it's hard to compare to the rollers.

For the Crosstrek at 4:00, I can't tell what Mode 1 means, so I assume VDC was still on (bad). I'm not defending Active AWD vs. Viscous or DCCD, which are a lot better with locking center and sometimes rear differentials.
If having electric only rear is "not as robust" as having mechanical connection, then why did the highlander setup seem to be a bit more capable than the crosstrek?

At the end of the day, these are soft-roaders that will spend 99.9% of their life on the road. If one needs a really robust system that drives all four wheels, this class of car is the wrong one... trucks or a 4 runner would be the much better option.

But personally, I'd rather have something that can out accelerate a 1990 civic. The acceleration in the Rav4 Prime is a lot more appealing to me given my driving habits.
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Old 12-07-2020, 05:22 PM   #40
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If having electric only rear is "not as robust" as having mechanical connection, then why did the highlander setup seem to be a bit more capable than the crosstrek?

At the end of the day, these are soft-roaders that will spend 99.9% of their life on the road. If one needs a really robust system that drives all four wheels, this class of car is the wrong one... trucks or a 4 runner would be the much better option.

But personally, I'd rather have something that can out accelerate a 1990 civic. The acceleration in the Rav4 Prime is a lot more appealing to me given my driving habits.
The Crosstrek climbs each angle...eventually. The major difference is that the Highlander is longer so 3 wheels are always on the ground. The short wheelbase of the Crosstrek lifts one front and one rear is barely touching. Again, we don't know if VDC is on or off.

I'm just worried that there's not enough power from that little rear motor with a depleted battery.

My Tesla Model Y with over 300hp/300tq (dyno @ the wheels) without a driveshaft has plenty of power to push/pull it's 5k lbs. The Toyota battery is only 53hp and once you press the pedal for more power it will disengage and switch to gas (FWD).
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Old 12-07-2020, 05:39 PM   #41
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The Toyota battery is only 53hp and once you press the pedal for more power it will disengage and switch to gas (FWD).
It doesn't switch to gas only though... it switches to hybrid, where the rear wheels are still powered. Sure, they're not equally powered, but my experience has shown me that they don't need to be in order to be effective for this class of car.

And Subaru would agree. They have a 60 front / 40 rear split on the torque in their standard cvt transmission... Hard to compare directly to the Rav4 system because of torque curves, but given that electric motors provide nearly full torque at 0 rpm, the split could be pretty good from a stop...

And that's the kicker, i guess. With the EV rear, it's all in the programming. It's a bit more black-box...
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Old 12-07-2020, 07:41 PM   #42
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It doesn't switch to gas only though... it switches to hybrid, where the rear wheels are still powered. Sure, they're not equally powered, but my experience has shown me that they don't need to be in order to be effective for this class of car.

And Subaru would agree. They have a 60 front / 40 rear split on the torque in their standard cvt transmission... Hard to compare directly to the Rav4 system because of torque curves, but given that electric motors provide nearly full torque at 0 rpm, the split could be pretty good from a stop...

And that's the kicker, i guess. With the EV rear, it's all in the programming. It's a bit more black-box...
Hybrid Mode = gas engine with coasting in EV, auto start/stop and initial off the line by battery.

BUT: With the battery depleted (near zero) you will ONLY get rear torque when barely touching the accelerator pedal. I mean a hair to coast through a parking lot. Once you tip in the pedal it will fire up the gas engine. That engine is FWD only. You will use up the available battery when depleted almost immediately. This is just how it works. I have had the 2015 Hybrid and 2019 PHEV. Once the battery is done you get almost zero EV mode.

My gas engine will send power to 4 wheels. The RAV4 Prime will be FWD.

Last edited by Snow Drift; 12-07-2020 at 07:51 PM.
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Old 12-07-2020, 09:05 PM   #43
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Snow Drift.. the ICE has two different motors attached to it. One of them is the traction motor, used to push the car (or against the ICE, as it were with the planetary transmission). The other motor used as generator that provides power for recharging the battery and the rear axle, as needed.

When a PHEV's battery is "depleted" it's really at like 35%, because there's a reserve left in the happily charged zone of that battery reserved for hybrid operation.

Honda's hybrid system completely powers the traction motor with the generator motor. By your theory, my PHEV Honda wouldn't be able to move once the battery was "depleted".
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Old 12-07-2020, 10:05 PM   #44
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Hybrid Mode = gas engine with coasting in EV, auto start/stop and initial off the line by battery.
The video of the highlander hybrid is exactly what I expect the Rav4 Prime will do when it's in hybrid mode. All videos of the Rav4 Prime that I've seen to date prove this out.

Subaru is hobbling together a car with Toyota technology. They don't know how to hybrid. Toyota does.
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Old 12-09-2020, 04:01 PM   #45
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Rav4 Prime failed the 'moose test' miserably. Could only manage 63 km/hr through it... 10 km/hr below the threshold. That would take it off my list, were I considering something in this class.
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Old 12-09-2020, 04:20 PM   #46
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Snow Drift.. the ICE has two different motors attached to it. One of them is the traction motor, used to push the car (or against the ICE, as it were with the planetary transmission). The other motor used as generator that provides power for recharging the battery and the rear axle, as needed.

When a PHEV's battery is "depleted" it's really at like 35%, because there's a reserve left in the happily charged zone of that battery reserved for hybrid operation.

Honda's hybrid system completely powers the traction motor with the generator motor. By your theory, my PHEV Honda wouldn't be able to move once the battery was "depleted".
The battery may not be 100% dead, but it doesn't do very much at that point. As soon as you press the pedal past a hair the gas engine fires up and propels the car. My Crosstrek, when the battery is depleted or above 65mph, is a gas powered car 99% of the time (partly driving, partly charging the battery) until you coast and it switches to EV or from a dead stop it attempts to use EV before immediately switching back to gasoline. When I have even 1% battery charge the car drives 100% EV and it is a much more enjoyable experience gliding around vs the 2.0 trying to chug along.

Honda's system can still drive the front wheels from the gas engine. If the battery is depleted or low then it uses the engine as a generator to refill the battery as it is being used. This works great when driving or in high traction situations. But how robust is that going to be from a dead stop at this exact moment when you need to get out of deep snow? Not to mention they would use a FWD-biased AWD system.

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Originally Posted by dwf137 View Post
The video of the highlander hybrid is exactly what I expect the Rav4 Prime will do when it's in hybrid mode. All videos of the Rav4 Prime that I've seen to date prove this out.

Subaru is hobbling together a car with Toyota technology. They don't know how to hybrid. Toyota does.
I'm not taking anything away from their HSD, but while Subaru took existing tech from a partner, they went out of their way to not use the electric rear axle design. They must have spent time and money on their full-time AWD hybrid design for a reason.

Last edited by Snow Drift; 12-09-2020 at 04:38 PM.
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Old 12-09-2020, 08:27 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by Snow Drift View Post

I'm not taking anything away from their HSD, but while Subaru took existing tech from a partner, they went out of their way to not use the electric rear axle design. They must have spent time and money on their full-time AWD hybrid design for a reason.
Remember the B9 Scrambler and the B5-TPH concepts? I think Crosstrek Hybrid is the fruits of those concepts with Subaru replacing the NEC components with Toyota's.
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Old 12-09-2020, 09:26 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Snow Drift View Post
The battery may not be 100% dead, but it doesn't do very much at that point. As soon as you press the pedal past a hair the gas engine fires up and propels the car.
The design of the transmission (in the Subaru and Toyota) only allows the car to move forward with the traction motor pushing against it. You have a fundamental misunderstanding of how HV mode works.

Do you honestly think the non-Prime AWD RAV-4 (and AWD Prius, AWD Highlander hybrid, Lexus RX hybrids, even the 2021 AWD Sienna) just never send any power to the rear axle because they're always in HV mode?

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Originally Posted by Snow Drift View Post
Honda's system can still drive the front wheels from the gas engine.
It doesn't have any gears, so it can only directly drive the wheels at low throttle settings around 50mph. I've had a "depleted" battery plenty with my PHEV Honda.. it still puts down plenty of power to move the car up to freeway speeds.
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Old 12-10-2020, 10:44 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by Calamity Jesus View Post
The design of the transmission (in the Subaru and Toyota) only allows the car to move forward with the traction motor pushing against it. You have a fundamental misunderstanding of how HV mode works.

Do you honestly think the non-Prime AWD RAV-4 (and AWD Prius, AWD Highlander hybrid, Lexus RX hybrids, even the 2021 AWD Sienna) just never send any power to the rear axle because they're always in HV mode?

It doesn't have any gears, so it can only directly drive the wheels at low throttle settings around 50mph. I've had a "depleted" battery plenty with my PHEV Honda.. it still puts down plenty of power to move the car up to freeway speeds.
The gas engine in HSD is connected to the planetary gear in the transmission, and that power is split direct into the wheels and to MG1 (on sun gear) for charging the battery. When cruising with ICE on (always >65mph Subaru), MG1 charges the battery and can supply MG2 with electricity for added propulsion if the gas engine needs help. For EV mode, the battery supplies energy to MG2.

The Toyota ICE can only mechanically power the front axle, not the rear, as there's no rear driveshaft. For the rear axle, MG3, if you will, is separate, and is only powered by the battery pack. Also, the system turns off the e-rear axle above 40 mph. Thus being FWD on the highway. Now, you could argue that the MG1 is connected to the ICE and that generates electricity to recharge the battery pack, thus allowing the ICE to supply the energy used by the rear axle.

Honda can be powered by the ICE: "Engine Drive, which uses the gas engine to deliver direct power to the front wheels. It is the only mode that can do this." https://www.detroithondadealers.com/...-system-works/

Last edited by Snow Drift; 12-10-2020 at 11:44 AM.
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Old 12-10-2020, 02:07 PM   #50
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Remember the B9 Scrambler and the B5-TPH concepts? I think Crosstrek Hybrid is the fruits of those concepts with Subaru replacing the NEC components with Toyota's.

All 4 hybrids...the 2 concepts and the 2 production.....are different systems.


The B9 is similar to other hybrids to day with mechanical FWD and motors for the rear.


B5-TPH was a motor sandwiched between the engine and the transmission.


Both Crosstreks, though different, are completely housed within the transmission.


Subaru has been working on things for quite some time. I guess maybe your statement is true. I actually came to post to say I disagreed based on the differences in the systems; but, they tried one and didn't go that route. Tried another. Same story.......so, they learned what didn't work for them and those "fruits" of Edison learning got them to where they are now.
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