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04-13-2018, 09:29 PM | #1 |
Scooby Newbie
Member#: 415163
Join Date: Mar 2015
Chapter/Region:
NWIC
Location: Oregon
Vehicle:2015 WRX Limited DGM |
Feedback Knock and Fine Knock Learn not at WOT
Some short logs:
https://datazap.me/u/bnejad/log45 https://datazap.me/u/bnejad/log46 https://datazap.me/u/bnejad/log47 I was driving from work hitting some traffic, so I was driving pretty slowly for past 10 minutes or so. I don't think I even hit positive boost. Anyways, 10 minutes in I started taking a log after I saw fine knock learn hit -6.XX and saw some feedback knock flash by just randomly. I didn't go WOT or do anything special, just normal driving. Then I started noticing every time I would stop and then move forward, I would see -4.xx Fine Knock Learn while easing the clutch into 1st. I'm not burning up the clutch or anything - just normal stop and go. While seeing that, I was not seeing any feedback knock which struck me as weird. I stopped at a store briefy and the journey home I wasn't seeing the same thing. One thing I've noticed lately is I will see Feedback Knock of -1.05 almost every drive even when I'm not using A/C or Defrost. Only thing that's changed recently is I installed springs, rear sway, and new wheels. Protuned by a reputable shop for about 5-6k miles. Car has 40k miles. Engine Mods: ProcessWest Verticooler (TMIC) PRL TGV and EGR Deletes PRL 3” Intake and box Cobb EBCS ETS Catted J-Pipe Corsa catback
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04-13-2018, 09:43 PM | #2 |
Scooby Specialist
Member#: 468117
Join Date: May 2017
Chapter/Region:
SCIC
Location: Southern Cali
Vehicle:2017 WRX DMG |
Could be a bad batch of gas or change recently in the weather
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04-13-2018, 09:50 PM | #3 |
Scooby Specialist
Member#: 391748
Join Date: May 2014
Chapter/Region:
NESIC
Location: The Shire
Vehicle:2015 WRX CWP (sold) 2019 STi CWP |
I don’t have to read a word of this post aside from the title: It’s fine, ignore it.
Search my post history there are multiple posts on knock control in these vehicles. They should help you understand Ps. Bet I can guess your tuner based on that feedback knock value |
04-13-2018, 10:48 PM | #4 |
Scooby Newbie
Member#: 469669
Join Date: Jun 2017
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I have a 2016 WRX running stage 2 MAPerformance 93 Octane tune and I see -1.41 feedback knock quite a bit..(never while getting on throttle) from what I read -1.41 seems to be nothing to worry about but there is so much back and forth around about it. I just don't beat on my car until I can drop 600 on a protune
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04-13-2018, 10:55 PM | #5 |
Scooby Newbie
Member#: 473534
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Kansas City, MO
Vehicle:15 WRX Prem. w/ HK CWP |
I get -1.41 to -2.82 fbk and fkl repeatedly if I drive constantly around 3k rpm and <20% throttle up a slight incline. I can watch the numbers pop up and learn out within a couple of seconds and repeat (can be back to back to back). Not an issue except you can feel it through the seat. Feels like the clutch is slipping or I can't hold the pedal steady but it is from the timing being pulled and re-added.
I'll just keep am eye out to see if it worsens or if you sort yours out. I'm stage 1 91 from MAP, but running 93 octane fuel. I am aware of the aggressive knock mitigation strategies by Subaru and they are similar to how my MINI was, but the slight lurching is a little annoying. Last edited by nine5raptor; 04-13-2018 at 11:13 PM. |
04-13-2018, 11:15 PM | #6 |
Scooby Newbie
Member#: 473534
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Kansas City, MO
Vehicle:15 WRX Prem. w/ HK CWP |
[quote=nine5raptor;45614733] nm. I give up. The app is not working for me posting tonight.
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04-13-2018, 11:26 PM | #7 | |
Scooby Newbie
Member#: 415163
Join Date: Mar 2015
Chapter/Region:
NWIC
Location: Oregon
Vehicle:2015 WRX Limited DGM |
Quote:
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04-14-2018, 12:18 AM | #8 | |
Scooby Specialist
Member#: 391748
Join Date: May 2014
Chapter/Region:
NESIC
Location: The Shire
Vehicle:2015 WRX CWP (sold) 2019 STi CWP |
Quote:
It makes perfect sense that it can start randomly becuase there’s hundreds of variables at play. Be glad you’re seeing any knock at all, your sensors are turned down globally. If there’s low load, low issue. Put the ap in the glove box and move on with your lives (all of you, seriously, you’re not doing yourselves any favors by looking at it, you’re probably just drinking more and losing sleep) |
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04-14-2018, 01:32 AM | #9 | |
Scooby Newbie
Member#: 415163
Join Date: Mar 2015
Chapter/Region:
NWIC
Location: Oregon
Vehicle:2015 WRX Limited DGM |
Quote:
I'm not really all that concerned the car is going to blow up. |
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04-14-2018, 07:11 AM | #10 |
Scooby Specialist
Member#: 378214
Join Date: Jan 2014
Chapter/Region:
Tri-State
Location: Blue Hole
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To give you some perspective... I have been trying to understand 'what combination of variables causes this' on my Subarus (and recent/current gen Subarus in general) for 10+ years... gave up trying or caring (like simpleJ suggests) a few years ago.
Along the way I leared more about these motors, their sensor array, wiring harnesses and ECU control logic (especially knock strategies) than I ever cared to know. The kicker - I am no better for it. The more I know, the less I understand and the more questions I have. It's a thankless bottomless rabbit hole. Most Subaru engineers have no clue either... Japan headoffice had the control logic outsourced to whoever does Denso and Hitachu xCU control system for them (typical for this industry). Ironically as the knowledge piles on, the less it makes sense in layman terms and the more counterintuative it becomes. Ultimately, its useless knowledge - unless you want to become a t00ner, work for CoBB, Ecutek, or similar. |
04-14-2018, 07:39 AM | #11 | |
Scooby Specialist
Member#: 391748
Join Date: May 2014
Chapter/Region:
NESIC
Location: The Shire
Vehicle:2015 WRX CWP (sold) 2019 STi CWP |
^ yup. All it's good for is nothing... except for not having anxiety about what your ap knock values are. Also attained by putting your ap in the glovebox.
Your knock sensors are "turned down" though, just FYI. That may more may not cause a problem. Whom'st tuned you? I am keeping a naughty list of tuners for my own use, I'd like to add them if they're not already on it. Anyways, here you are, from another thread, in layman's terms as what you see in your AP: Quote:
Last edited by simpleJ; 04-14-2018 at 07:44 AM. |
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04-14-2018, 08:13 AM | #12 | |
Scooby Specialist
Member#: 475983
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Upstate NY
Vehicle:2018 WRX Limited Silver |
Quote:
THANKS for what I m reading is one of the clearest explainations of this often seen question (which I would have too if my recent tune showed the OP er values). I now get an idea why it is never fully answered. I didn t realize that very few people understand this ECU tuning thing deeply. As I have started studying the subject I thought maybe I was not as bright as I thought (LOL) because I couldn t grasp the full picture on some of this. I was once told to put the AP in the glove box and was a little insulted. So do you really believe Cobb has it down totally as far as knowledge? I would hope so. That would limit who s tune I would put on my car for sure. You guys are right too that I see too much internet BS where everyone s tune is the best and everyone of them knows fully what they are doing. You two guys should put up a long post about this all in one spot if you haven t already. I don t know where you got all your knowedge from but it seems to be the best I ve heard on this topic. Thanks. |
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04-14-2018, 08:28 AM | #13 |
Scooby Specialist
Member#: 391748
Join Date: May 2014
Chapter/Region:
NESIC
Location: The Shire
Vehicle:2015 WRX CWP (sold) 2019 STi CWP |
You can read until you’re blue in the face but until you’ve been in the ecu, it’s not going to help.
Tuners suck. I once had an argument with a tuner in Quebec over the factory break point for AF learning 1. I was literally looking at the factory map in ATR. Like the data was right in front of me. Some of them lie to you, and others will do irresponsible crap in your ecu. Like desensitize your knock sensors so you don’t call them with questions like the above, or so they can make 20 more hp than the next tuner. Cobb knows a lot but they don’t know everything. They leverage a lot of tuners for hive knowledge. Last edited by simpleJ; 04-14-2018 at 08:56 AM. |
04-16-2018, 09:56 AM | #14 |
Scooby Newbie
Member#: 424692
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: NJ
Vehicle:2015 WRX WRB |
Best advice on here. If you have a tune from a tuner you trust and the car has been running fine, take your AP and put it away. I can guarantee you will enjoy the car more without the AP on display. I've been on pretty much the same tune for 40,000 miles. AP hasnt been on display since about 10,000 miles in.
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04-16-2018, 11:54 AM | #15 |
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Join Date: Jan 2014
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Do what I did and stop monitoring them on your AP and just watch your DAM...
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04-16-2018, 01:31 PM | #16 |
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Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: SoCal
Vehicle:17 WRX |
put the Cobb AP in the glove box and drive the car.
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04-16-2018, 01:40 PM | #17 |
Scooby Specialist
Member#: 378214
Join Date: Jan 2014
Chapter/Region:
Tri-State
Location: Blue Hole
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DAM/IAM monitoring is useless without a wide context of the tune, conditions when RC triggers or fails to trigger a re-eval of DAM/IAM.
A DAM/IAM thats rock solid pegged at 1, means nothing without context and does not mean great, stable tune. A DAM/IAM that fluctuates also means nothing without context and does not mean a botched, bad, unsafe tune. A DAM/IAM pegged at 0 or any value between 0 and 1 and unable to recover back closer or to 1 also means nothing without context of tune. Its neither good or bad. |
04-22-2018, 09:33 AM | #18 | |
Scooby Newbie
Member#: 462457
Join Date: Feb 2017
Vehicle:2016 WRX Limited WR Blue |
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04-22-2018, 12:21 PM | #19 | |
Scooby Specialist
Member#: 391748
Join Date: May 2014
Chapter/Region:
NESIC
Location: The Shire
Vehicle:2015 WRX CWP (sold) 2019 STi CWP |
Quote:
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04-22-2018, 01:52 PM | #20 |
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Do we know which of the more popular tuners adjust the sensitivity of knock sensors? Ron, Bren, etc? Ian from MAP has said they don’t. Curious if that information is out there for the others.
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04-22-2018, 03:38 PM | #21 |
Scooby Newbie
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04-22-2018, 09:18 PM | #22 | |
Scooby Specialist
Member#: 391748
Join Date: May 2014
Chapter/Region:
NESIC
Location: The Shire
Vehicle:2015 WRX CWP (sold) 2019 STi CWP |
Quote:
All of them- but its more complicated than that. I would need to post the tables to make sense, but basically you can cut the nuts off all the knock sensing- that is the problem. Bren I know for a fact does not do this. I don't believe ron does either. |
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11-20-2019, 06:48 PM | #23 | |
Scooby Newbie
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Vehicle:2003 WRX WRB |
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11-20-2019, 07:52 PM | #24 |
Scooby Newbie
Member#: 462457
Join Date: Feb 2017
Vehicle:2016 WRX Limited WR Blue |
My first tune was by Calvin at EFI logics in CT. 2nd tune was done by Mike Botti. Both on the dyno in CT. I like Calvin's tune more and just stayed on it. He does not add knock reduction. Botti does boost by gear and the car feels slower than Calvin's tune. Calvin spent a good amount of time in my car and he was very honest and answered all of my questions. Hope that helps
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11-20-2019, 08:07 PM | #25 | |
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