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Old 06-23-2023, 02:05 AM   #351
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https://companiesmarketcap.com/autom...by-market-cap/

The system doesn't need significant re-design to work with a manual transmission. The only thing that might need some tweaking is the adaptive cruise control, but that's a pretty simple programming change with some follow up testing. The rest of it functions identically. A manual car may stall out due to emergency braking, there is no programming that will change that. Steering and lane keep, unaffected.

I think they just wanted the manual to die and didn't think it was worth the cost. But they're now realizing that the desire for a manual is still strong enough to keep it going, so they finally told their programmers to make it happen because they want the press of saying that all their cars come with it standard (like many other manufacturers can already do, Mazda included).


They could have also been trying to listen to the enthusiasts - a lot of them don't want automatic anything in their manual cars, which I can understand. That played to their budget, since they never had to re-work cruise control to deal with the manual trans. I'd personally be okay with the emergency braking, it's saved me once on a on right turn yield where the car in front of me should have gone but they didn't, and I'm turned looking for incoming traffic. My latest car acquisition doesn't have it though, so whatever.

SBR would just kill the manuals if that were the case. WRX and BRZ have always been mostly manual sales. On the flip side, frs/86 have been majority automatics. What has changed is agencies around the globe are expecting and in some cases requiring ADAS functionality be present on vehicles regardless transmission to achieve certain distinctions or recommendations. Consumer Reports is one for instance. That’s at odds with manual performance car drivers as they are the customers least likely to care about safety features or want ADAS functions of any segment. Subaru developing EyeSight for manuals began development before VB and ZD went on sale.
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Old 06-23-2023, 03:18 AM   #352
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WRX and BRZ have always been mostly manual sales. On the flip side, frs/86 have been majority automatics.
I've said this before, but the reason why the Toyota's sell eay more autos is they don't have the same ordering system as Subaru. They can't custom order or pre order cars like Subaru, and Toyota just sends them product.

If the dealers or customers had their way, more manuals would be on the lot.

As for why Toyota is doing that? Its probably something like you said relating to overall brand safety averages or something we don't get to know about.
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Old 06-23-2023, 06:54 AM   #353
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A manual car may stall out due to emergency braking, there is no programming that will change that.
It should be as simple as the clutch rod has an actuator on/through it that only activates in emergency braking.

Like a (thickish) slotted rod with a dowl/pin through it and an actuator that will activate when the EBS kicks in. In normal use, the dowel/pin just slides/rests in the slot. (If you don't know what a slotted rod is, google it... work computer is being stupid.)
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Old 06-23-2023, 09:52 AM   #354
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It should be as simple as the clutch rod has an actuator on/through it that only activates in emergency braking.
Failure point that could result in a driver at some point not having control of their vehicle. none of the manuals on the market that have emergency braking have this feature, highly doubt Subaru is going to break new ground...
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Old 06-23-2023, 12:16 PM   #355
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As for why Toyota is doing that? Its probably something like you said relating to overall brand safety averages or something we don't get to know about.
I'd like to see the split year over year. One point I've heard is that in the latter model years, sales had slowed enough to where autos were just easier to move to random non-enthusiast people and that swelled the AT sales figures. Seems plausible but I doubt that effect was big. Overall trend '13-'20 seemed heavily AT. Big head scratcher.

The initial split of AT/MT for the second gen followed suit, frickin brutal. It was almost 80/20 AT/MT at times in the first 4-5 months, basically the inverse of the demand. By end of the year it had drifted closer to 50/50 and thankfully, looking today it's almost exactly 50/50. The GR86 org reservation survey is sitting at 585 MT 124 AT. Yeah, it's a forum so enthusiasts are better represented there but come on.

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It should be as simple as the clutch rod has an actuator on/through it that only activates in emergency braking.

Like a (thickish) slotted rod with a dowl/pin through it and an actuator that will activate when the EBS kicks in. In normal use, the dowel/pin just slides/rests in the slot. (If you don't know what a slotted rod is, google it... work computer is being stupid.)
I think it could be done pretty simply and reliably just like ABS. Very similar pressure control module between clutch master and slave.

The only reason I can think nobody has done that is because - who cares? So ADAS might stall the car in an emergency braking situation. You want it stopped, it's stopped. Subaru is the only company that seems to have concerned themselves with that. Probably because NHTSA seems to equate a stalled car with a car that is engulfed in flames.
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Old 06-23-2023, 12:53 PM   #356
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I've said this before, but the reason why the Toyota's sell eay more autos is they don't have the same ordering system as Subaru. They can't custom order or pre order cars like Subaru, and Toyota just sends them product.

If the dealers or customers had their way, more manuals would be on the lot.

As for why Toyota is doing that? Its probably something like you said relating to overall brand safety averages or something we don't get to know about.

And yet the Toyota doesn't get EyeSight.......




Might be that Toyota customers are just different.


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....The only reason I can think nobody has done that is because - who cares? So ADAS might stall the car in an emergency braking situation. You want it stopped, it's stopped. Subaru is the only company that seems to have concerned themselves with that. Probably because NHTSA seems to equate a stalled car with a car that is engulfed in flames.

A car without control....seems pretty stupid. Especially if it's in traffic. Which can cause an accident having a car in the middle of the road stopped. Happens all the time(stalled car causing accidents). Ask me how I know.
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Old 06-23-2023, 01:05 PM   #357
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A car without control....seems pretty stupid. Especially if it's in traffic. Which can cause an accident having a car in the middle of the road stopped. Happens all the time(stalled car causing accidents). Ask me how I know.
Speaking from experience in owning a manual vehicle with auto braking - If a manual transmission driver ends up with a stalled car because of auto braking, chances are there is a medical emergency, or it was a serious incident where immediate acceleration is unlikely to be needed. Once the auto braking happens it immediately startles you and you clutch out of habit. You can always make up a scenario where it's going to be a detriment, but 99% of the time, it's going to be better to automatically stop the car without an accident than it would be to just allow the accident. Stop the immediate accident first, then worry about the follow up.
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Old 06-23-2023, 01:38 PM   #358
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Speaking from experience in owning a manual vehicle with auto braking - If a manual transmission driver ends up with a stalled car because of auto braking, chances are there is a medical emergency, or it was a serious incident where immediate acceleration is unlikely to be needed. Once the auto braking happens it immediately startles you and you clutch out of habit. You can always make up a scenario where it's going to be a detriment, but 99% of the time, it's going to be better to automatically stop the car without an accident than it would be to just allow the accident. Stop the immediate accident first, then worry about the follow up.



Or get rid of manuals and not have to worry as much about "chances are".
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Old 06-23-2023, 01:55 PM   #359
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I've said this before, but the reason why the Toyota's sell eay more autos is they don't have the same ordering system as Subaru. They can't custom order or pre order cars like Subaru, and Toyota just sends them product.

If the dealers or customers had their way, more manuals would be on the lot.

As for why Toyota is doing that? It’s probably something like you said relating to overall brand safety averages or something we don't get to know about.
Toyota orders its cars from Subaru. They will order the cars with the greater demand. No matter the volume, Toyota’s twin has always been auto biased. Even when the last gen twins were yesterday’s news and the sold orders were nothing to write home about, Toyota skewed auto, Subaru manual.
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Old 06-23-2023, 01:56 PM   #360
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And yet the Toyota doesn't get EyeSight.......


But it does and will
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Old 06-23-2023, 02:43 PM   #361
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Toyota orders its cars from Subaru. They will order the cars with the greater demand. No matter the volume, Toyota’s twin has always been auto biased. Even when the last gen twins were yesterday’s news and the sold orders were nothing to write home about, Toyota skewed auto, Subaru manual.
I'm tired of repeating this, just search through any discussion about the GR86, GR Corolla or GR Supra. There is NO connection between customer preference and allocations...

Quote:
"No custom ordering from the factory. You can have a dealer put in an "order preference" and the regional distributor will try to allocate a Supra that is close to the spec you requested."
You can't walk into a Toyota dealer and order what you want regardless. They have to find the car/allocation for you. Its a completly different system, and in no way reflects actual customer desires.
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Old 06-23-2023, 08:44 PM   #362
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I'm tired of repeating this, just search through any discussion about the GR86, GR Corolla or GR Supra. There is NO connection between customer preference and allocations...



You can't walk into a Toyota dealer and order what you want regardless. They have to find the car/allocation for you. Its a completly different system, and in no way reflects actual customer desires.
I am NOT talking about allocation. You are way down stream. Toyota the manufacturer orders what it wants to sell from Subaru the manufacturer. Toyota the the distributor gets what Toyota the manufacturer sells them. Toyota the distributor and Toyota the manufacturer know what’s selling and and how quickly.
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Old 06-23-2023, 09:18 PM   #363
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But it does and will

Ah. Haven't updated myself in a minute. Thought I remember that the 86 didn't get it when introduced.
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Old 06-23-2023, 10:55 PM   #364
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I am NOT talking about allocation. You are way down stream. Toyota the manufacturer orders what it wants to sell from Subaru the manufacturer. Toyota the the distributor gets what Toyota the manufacturer sells them. Toyota the distributor and Toyota the manufacturer know what’s selling and and how quickly.
When Toyota the manufacturer decides what to build (or have Subaru build), they are making "forecasts" on what they expect to sell. They are not taking orders from customers on what they want, or even what dealers want. They are cutting off direct input and sales, and ramming what they decide to build down the throat of their distribution.
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Old 06-24-2023, 12:54 AM   #365
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When Toyota the manufacturer decides what to build (or have Subaru build), they are making "forecasts" on what they expect to sell. They are not taking orders from customers on what they want, or even what dealers want. They are cutting off direct input and sales, and ramming what they decide to build down the throat of their distribution.
They aren’t taking orders. Forecasting is what happens with initial build outs. 2 years in they know the difference in demand between trims and transmissions. It’s not some shot in the dark at this point. Manufacturing mixes on a lineup as small as the twins is light work. Toyota will request what moves best at the most profit.
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Old 06-24-2023, 01:58 AM   #366
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Toyota will request what moves best at the most profit.
And that is the problem right now with Toyota...

Everything they sell is perceived as "gold" and they can't keep inventory on the lot. Their dealerships have reverted to the scumbaggery of yester-year, with the worst salesmen and customer service of previously derided brands because they know they can make so much markup on almost everything they sell, attracting the worst of the worst kind of people.

Brands that have modernized for direct sales models and focus heavily on customer relations are still actually the most profitable, but Toyotas engineering success is hiding their flaws. If they make any serious miss-steps in the near future, they are going to have massive issues.
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Old 06-24-2023, 10:09 AM   #367
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Originally Posted by Kostamojen View Post
When Toyota the manufacturer decides what to build (or have Subaru build), they are making "forecasts" on what they expect to sell. They are not taking orders from customers on what they want, or even what dealers want. They are cutting off direct input and sales, and ramming what they decide to build down the throat of their distribution.
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Originally Posted by Kostamojen View Post
And that is the problem right now with Toyota...

Everything they sell is perceived as "gold" and they can't keep inventory on the lot. Their dealerships have reverted to the scumbaggery of yester-year, with the worst salesmen and customer service of previously derided brands because they know they can make so much markup on almost everything they sell, attracting the worst of the worst kind of people.

Brands that have modernized for direct sales models and focus heavily on customer relations are still actually the most profitable, but Toyotas engineering success is hiding their flaws. If they make any serious miss-steps in the near future, they are going to have massive issues.
I have to disagree with a lot of this. Toyota is where they are because they are smart. You REALLY think they just decide to build what they want without market research? Com'on man. If that were REALLY the case, they wouldn't be as popular as they are. Seriously.....a car company being massively popular given customers NOT what they want.
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Old 06-24-2023, 10:54 AM   #368
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Seriously.....a car company being massively popular given customers NOT what they want.
Like I said, the Engineers/Designers are building what people want in general, but the details matter. As a customer, you can't order the color you want or even a trim you want, the dealers have to find it or you have to go find it yourself... It's a flawed system. Even Subaru lets you order cars, a lot of folks bought BRZs over GR86's because of that and because Subaru has cracked down on markups.

As for market research, there are MANY different scales and ways to do so. Porsche for example sends out a survey every month to owners asking a ton of questions directly. Tesla also does a far more effective job engaging with owners. Toyota is just too content with itself to be better.
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Old 06-26-2023, 12:19 PM   #369
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Like I said, the Engineers/Designers are building what people want in general, but the details matter. As a customer, you can't order the color you want or even a trim you want, the dealers have to find it or you have to go find it yourself... It's a flawed system. Even Subaru lets you order cars, a lot of folks bought BRZs over GR86's because of that and because Subaru has cracked down on markups.
The only way I could be convinced that Toyota knew what was really going on re: the insane nightmare for customers trying to get a manual GR86 while autos were a dime a dozen, and said "yep that's fine" is if they:

1. profit so much more on autos that they don't care (no)
2. actually wanted dealers to make $6-$10k markup per manual GR86 (no)
3. supply chain somehow meant a heavier manual mix wasn't possible (maybe, unlikely)

Otherwise it sure seemed to me like they badly underestimated what the initial demand for manuals was going to be.

That said, their way of doing things does work pretty much fine for most of the vehicles they sell. At least when dealers have inventory. For small volume stuff it can only be terrible though. Even if there were zero COVID supply chain issues etc, getting a manual GR86 would have been a nightmare.
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Old 06-26-2023, 06:57 PM   #370
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Old 06-26-2023, 07:05 PM   #371
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Oh, I was contemplating posting that but got busy today and forgot. Interesting video.
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Old 06-27-2023, 10:11 AM   #372
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wow, glad I didn't see this before my freebie Toyota track day this past weekend. It was a clockwise track too, probably 3 places where this was happening.

Anyhow the traffic was so bad I never got more than one full hot lap in at a time. Maybe 3 good laps in total all day. I was barely able to break 240F.
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Old 06-27-2023, 10:11 AM   #373
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double
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Old 06-28-2023, 11:27 PM   #374
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Looks like R&T picked that up:

https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a4...rvation-issue/

Subaru's response is top notch, as usual...

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[...]A Subaru spokesperson tells R&T that "Subaru of America stands behind the design integrity of the FA24 engine which is used reliably in thousands of vehicles. Oil pressure varies in all engines based on RPM, temperature, cornering loads and numerous other external and internal factors. This is normal in an engine duty cycle. The FA24 engine is designed to perform within a wide set of tolerances for road use, and the Subaru BRZ is designed as a road car. Race cars are specially modified to be used for race conditions."[...]
Sent from my SM-S906U1 using Tapatalk
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Old 06-29-2023, 01:12 AM   #375
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And there is even a "track" button in the car

Subaru won't spend a dime to fix it I bet.
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