Next Gen STI Canceled

[KC]

Originally Posted by Snow Drift

I recall the hoopla of the STi compared to Evo VIII.

You weren't in the right corner of the internet.

Lots of DSM and Mitsu forums were ablaze.

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[chanomatik]

I mean... isn't that the case with EVERY fandom though? Shouldn't they have their own, dedicated corner? I think the STI was different, from what I've gathered.

I wasn't really in the scene at that time. I do know that everyone was drooling over the STI and Evo back then. So much so that back in 2008 I was seriously considering an Evo over an STI. I never drove either, but after reading a bunch of reviews and feedback I went with the STI. It had more community support where I lived, more familiarity because of shared parts with other models, slightly more usable daily driver suspension, a somewhat more renowned six-speed transmission, and... cruise control.

[Snow Drift]

Originally Posted by KC

You weren't in the right corner of the internet.

Lots of DSM and Mitsu forums were ablaze.

In 2003/2004 I was a ClubRSX member. My RSX lease was ending and I really liked the Evo VIII, so I joined EvoM. Unfortunately, it was a bit expensive for a college kid, so, I got the 2005 WRX. The rest is history.

[NighthawkSTI]

Originally Posted by Snow Drift

No one wants vaporware. We want evidence of physical testing and competitive future products. So far, we received a product that shows they are unaware of the current technology/user experience expected by consumers. We need to see that they get it.


Yes, 300hp was a secret, but the STi was not.

Showing zero means you are probably doing nothing or unsure what to do. Could it mean they are in a skunk works lab creating something? Sure. But, there are plenty of details along the way which would show that Subaru understands what needs to be done (mineral contracts, battery manufacturing, etc) that can be announced (and are by others) without divulging top secret design/performance plans.

ummm..maybe you haven't heard?/.

https://www.subaru.com/vehicles/solt...a4377a189202f0

[rallly 4]

Originally Posted by NighthawkSTI

ummm..maybe you haven't heard?/.

https://www.subaru.com/vehicles/solt...a4377a189202f0

I find it pretty funny your last few posts make it sound like you’re actually rooting for an electric sti and you seem ok with the disgusting “ste” model designation or whatever that is.

[Snow Drift]

Originally Posted by NighthawkSTI

ummm..maybe you haven't heard?/.

https://www.subaru.com/vehicles/solt...a4377a189202f0

You quoted me saying "so far, we received a product that shows they are unaware of the current technology/user experience expected by consumers. We need to see that they get it." My statement is literally about the shortcomings of the Solterra.

[chanomatik]

How badly does the Solterra need to fail to be considered inadequate? Initial sales seem steady. Are people just not informed of alternatives? Is it fueled (teehee) mostly by brand loyalty? Or is it adequate for the target audience?

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[Straight6]

...Or and I know this may be shocking, it is a good car and people like it.

[SCRAPPYDO]

Originally Posted by chanomatik

How badly does the Solterra need to fail to be considered inadequate? Initial sales seem steady. Are people just not informed of alternatives? Is it fueled (teehee) mostly by brand loyalty? Or is it adequate for the target audience?

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it is maybe both. The Solterra is protected by its E status so insulting it is forbidden. It is electric and for some that is enough as that is all they need.

[Snow Drift]

Originally Posted by chanomatik

How badly does the Solterra need to fail to be considered inadequate? Initial sales seem steady. Are people just not informed of alternatives? Is it fueled (teehee) mostly by brand loyalty? Or is it adequate for the target audience?

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Watch bZ4X/Solterra reviews by the major EV journalists. It get's panned for it's extremely slow charging, low miles, lack of preconditioning, lack of route planning, etc. These are all basic attributes of modern EVs (not just Tesla). It costs $52k (fine, you can get a base for $48k) which is Tesla territory now.

Subaru is only building 6,500 MY23 Solterra for the US. The reservation system opened in February 2022.

Then they lost the EV credit (for financing), and regained it for leases. So I am sure some people canceled their reservations.

To date they have delivered: 2,278 since November 2022.

Cars.com shows 673 Solterra for sale today, nationwide.

These cars should be selling like hotcakes since only 45% have been delivered, and many were reserved... yet they are sitting. Some months the BRZ has outsold it. Especially since you can get a Model Y for a similar price, and way higher residual (lower lease payment).

EDIT: I drove it, it was very nice for around town. It just needs the basic stuff updated, because it will be harder to live with than the competition. And that is from a 3x Tesla owner with zero anxiety. Now, sell that to a newbie. The competition offers a better package (just less ground clearance).

[dwf137]

Originally Posted by chanomatik

How badly does the Solterra need to fail to be considered inadequate? Initial sales seem steady. Are people just not informed of alternatives? Is it fueled (teehee) mostly by brand loyalty? Or is it adequate for the target audience?

what makes it inadequate?

The average consumer doesn't care about overall efficiency as long as the mileage that they get is adequate for their needs. The average consumer doesn't care about what voltage the system uses as long as their at home charger gives them enough charge for their daily usage. The average consumer really doesn't see the soltera as a failure.

And honestly, EVs are so much nicer to drive that even a sub-par EV will wow an average consumer. The immediate and linear power delivery is something that no ICE can achieve. My wife is in love with our Leaf even though it's pretty much the most sub-par EV out there. She thinks it's the most fun car she's ever driven, and she's been behind the wheel of all of my vehicles. We bought it because it was cheap, had reasonable power (leaf plus), and hasn't been at risk of catching on fire like a lot of other brand's EV's have been.

Sure, there's a lot of room for improvement for the soltera, but I don't think it's a failure to anyone except EV geeks.

[Snow Drift]

Originally Posted by dwf137

what makes it inadequate?

The average consumer doesn't care about overall efficiency as long as the mileage that they get is adequate for their needs. The average consumer doesn't care about what voltage the system uses as long as their at home charger gives them enough charge for their daily usage. The average consumer really doesn't see the soltera as a failure.

And honestly, EVs are so much nicer to drive that even a sub-par EV will wow an average consumer. The immediate and linear power delivery is something that no ICE can achieve. My wife is in love with our Leaf even though it's pretty much the most sub-par EV out there. She thinks it's the most fun car she's ever driven, and she's been behind the wheel of all of my vehicles. We bought it because it was cheap, had reasonable power (leaf plus), and hasn't been at risk of catching on fire like a lot of other brand's EV's have been.

Sure, there's a lot of room for improvement for the soltera, but I don't think it's a failure to anyone except EV geeks.

Would you pay $52k for a Solterra?

Model Y = $50k+
MME = $50k+
Ioniq5 = $55k+
ID.4 = $52k+

[dwf137]

Originally Posted by Snow Drift

Would you pay $52k for a Solterra?

Model Y = $50k+
MME = $50k+
Ioniq5 = $55k+
ID.4 = $52k+

the subaru starts at 45K, so let's make that clear.

But no, I wouldn't buy any of those. That's too much money to spend on a regional commuter vehicle, hence why I drive a nissan leaf. I can't justify the price any of those vehicles. I could absolutely afford it, but I cannot logic myself into spending that much money.

[timpala11]

Originally Posted by dwf137

the subaru starts at 45K, so let's make that clear.

But no, I wouldn't buy any of those. That's too much money to spend on a regional commuter vehicle, hence why I drive a nissan leaf. I can't justify the price any of those vehicles. I could absolutely afford it, but I cannot logic myself into spending that much money.

I want a shrunken down hatchback version of the Ioniq5 so bad, but I doubt that would shrink the price too.

[dwf137]

Originally Posted by timpala11

I want a shrunken down hatchback version of the Ioniq5 so bad, but I doubt that would shrink the price too.

I love the design of that product, but agree, it would be better at 3/4 scale.

Having owned an EV now and knowing my use for it, I'd be more than capable of dealing with a 100-150 mile range (smaller battery), awd, and decent acceleration. Put it in something of similar size to my leaf, and I'm game. It doesn't exist but something like A VW ID.3R would be ideal.

[fathatch]

Not being eligible for the tax credit will likely make it unsuccessful from a sales perspective, not accounting for its other potential or perceived shortcomings (range, power, design).

[Snow Drift]

Originally Posted by dwf137

the subaru starts at 45K, so let's make that clear.

But no, I wouldn't buy any of those. That's too much money to spend on a regional commuter vehicle, hence why I drive a nissan leaf. I can't justify the price any of those vehicles. I could absolutely afford it, but I cannot logic myself into spending that much money.

Who wants the 45k model with no glass roof, a tiny infotainment screen, no HK, and manual seats for $45k? It's an even worse value for the money.

Modern BEVs are not regional commuter vehicles. Yours is, and it was a pioneer, but that is not competitive in 2023.

Originally Posted by dwf137

I love the design of that product, but agree, it would be better at 3/4 scale.

Having owned an EV now and knowing my use for it, I'd be more than capable of dealing with a 100-150 mile range (smaller battery), awd, and decent acceleration. Put it in something of similar size to my leaf, and I'm game. It doesn't exist but something like A VW ID.3R would be ideal.

You're talking about smaller vehicles. The Solterra is much larger, and is not competitive in it's own segment.

The Lexus RZ450e just got rated at 196 miles (big wheels) for $64k. Toyota/Subaru/Lexus are clueless. MT was not impressed:
https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/2...t-test-review/

Originally Posted by fathatch

Not being eligible for the tax credit will likely make it unsuccessful from a sales perspective, not accounting for its other potential or perceived shortcomings (range, power, design).

Yea, the credit is a huge hit. Makes the car $7,500 more expensive than some of it's peers. Again, you can get it if you lease.

[dwf137]

Originally Posted by Snow Drift

Modern BEVs are not regional commuter vehicles. Yours is, and it was a pioneer, but that is not competitive in 2023.

I get 225 miles in my leaf. That's not far off from most of the other cars out there, better than the base model Ioniq5. Even 300 miles is still regional commuter in my eyes. I have taken my car to the limit, came home from a round trip with single digit % left. It was still within the "region" (basically Everett to Olympia, if you care to look at that on a map). I'm full into EV, but we do not have the infrastructure to support anything but regional commuting for average consumers. Sure, some people will go to the lengths of mapping out a drive with planned charge stops, but even as an EV supporter, I'm not there, and neither is the general public. There are not enough charge stations for that to happen, and it's going to take generations for there to be enough. EV is still in its infancy and manufacturers should be embracing the limitations, not trying to break them. But hey, consumers want crossovers and they can charge a premium for them, so more power to 'em, it's more money in the shareholders pocket.

[Snow Drift]

Originally Posted by dwf137

I get 225 miles in my leaf. That's not far off from most of the other cars out there, better than the base model Ioniq5. Even 300 miles is still regional commuter in my eyes. I have taken my car to the limit, came home from a round trip with single digit % left. It was still within the "region" (basically Everett to Olympia, if you care to look at that on a map). I'm full into EV, but we do not have the infrastructure to support anything but regional commuting for average consumers. Sure, some people will go to the lengths of mapping out a drive with planned charge stops, but even as an EV supporter, I'm not there, and neither is the general public. There are not enough charge stations for that to happen, and it's going to take generations for there to be enough. EV is still in its infancy and manufacturers should be embracing the limitations, not trying to break them. But hey, consumers want crossovers and they can charge a premium for them, so more power to 'em, it's more money in the shareholders pocket.

You are limited to J1772 and CHADeMO. That is why you feel like the infrastructure isn't sufficient. The rest of us have a larger and/or faster network.

I could input Seattle and in a minute or less my Tesla would tell me the route, when to stop, where to stop, how long to stop and get me to Pike Place with little to no anxiety. Now, cross country might be a big trip, but the point is the same on the same coast. I can go to Miami with the same ease. I went from NY to VT to ski in 6-7 hours, made two stops (winter), and it was easy. No issues. Heat on, music pumping.

[chanomatik]

It's a toss up because Tesla has the technology and infrastructure while other manufacturers seem to have the build quality and interior design. Unless you pay over $100k to get all of it.

I feel like most of it is fairly subjective anyway. I just know I wouldn't be driving from the east coast to Alaska in an EV anytime soon. At least not in any timely manner. Could make for a potentially fun road trip documentary/vlog.

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[dwf137]

Originally Posted by Snow Drift

You are limited to J1772 and CAHDeMO. That is why you feel like the infrastructure isn't sufficient. The rest of us have a larger and/or faster network.

I could input Seattle and in a minute or less my Tesla would tell me the route, when to stop, where to stop, how long to stop and get me to Pike Place with little to no anxiety. Now, cross country might be a big trip, but the point is the same on the same coast. I can go to Miami with the same ease. I went from NY to VT to ski in 6-7 hours, made two stops (winter), and it was easy. No issues. Heat on, music pumping.

No, that's not why I think the infrastructure is insufficient... it's because everywhere I go, regardless of type, the chargers are full. We have a lot of EV's around here and it's nearly impossible to get a spot at one because there's not enough to go around. I'm not going to plan out a trip based on theoretical availability of a charge port and then get there and find out that it's full. I'm going to take my ICE and not worry about it. Until the infrastructure is there, it's a no from me dawg.

And I do multiple trips a year for mountain biking an snowboarding in excess of the range of any EV on the market, and until someone forces me to, I will not be doing that trip in an EV because I don't want to deal with charge stops. I get annoyed enough watching all those cars I just passed go by me at bathroom breaks, lol.

[Snow Drift]

Originally Posted by chanomatik

It's a toss up because Tesla has the technology and infrastructure while other manufacturers seem to have the build quality and interior design. Unless you pay over $100k to get all of it.

I feel like most of it is fairly subjective anyway. I just know I wouldn't be driving from the east coast to Alaska in an EV anytime soon. At least not in any timely manner. Could make for a potentially fun road trip documentary/vlog.

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I would guess that Alaska is a bit of a stretch if the weather isn't perfect.

For you to drive from MA to DC, easy. MA to Quebec City, easy. You just set the navigation and go in less than a day.

[Snow Drift]

Originally Posted by dwf137

No, that's not why I think the infrastructure is insufficient... it's because everywhere I go, regardless of type, the chargers are full. We have a lot of EV's around here and it's nearly impossible to get a spot at one because there's not enough to go around. I'm not going to plan out a trip based on theoretical availability of a charge port and then get there and find out that it's full. I'm going to take my ICE and not worry about it. Until the infrastructure is there, it's a no from me dawg.

And I do multiple trips a year for mountain biking an snowboarding in excess of the range of any EV on the market, and until someone forces me to, I will not be doing that trip in an EV because I don't want to deal with charge stops. I get annoyed enough watching all those cars I just passed go by me at bathroom breaks, lol.

I'm not saying that it is perfect, and the east coast is clearly less congested. My nav will tell me how many stalls are available and reroute if it get's clogged. So, it's not an issue, certainly not here in my experience. Trips are not a daily occurrence. 300 miles is not necessary for a daily commute, but the charging speed/curve and lack of preconditioning/routing for $45-5Xk is unfortuante.

[samagon]

Originally Posted by chanomatik

It's a toss up because Tesla has the technology and infrastructure while other manufacturers seem to have the build quality and interior design. Unless you pay over $100k to get all of it.

I feel like most of it is fairly subjective anyway. I just know I wouldn't be driving from the east coast to Alaska in an EV anytime soon. At least not in any timely manner. Could make for a potentially fun road trip documentary/vlog.

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recent article about the current issues.
https://www.politico.com/news/2023/0...s-why-00089181

towards the end of the article it starts talking about uptime, as in the up/down, but that doesn't really do much to tell a person if the CC auth is working, or the screen is turned off, or if the charging cable is missing.

anyway, it's just a data point, nothing major, I'm glad people are taking the opportunity to push this technology by paying to be a beta tester and work out the issues. if I am forced to adopt, I want you guys to make sure the network is flawless first.

[JustyWRC]

Originally Posted by chanomatik

It's a toss up because Tesla has the technology and infrastructure while other manufacturers seem to have the build quality and interior design. Unless you pay over $100k to get all of it.

I feel like most of it is fairly subjective anyway. I just know I wouldn't be driving from the east coast to Alaska in an EV anytime soon. At least not in any timely manner. Could make for a potentially fun road trip documentary/vlog.

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Maybe you'd give a heads up on that trip and not "sneak" through!