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Old 08-26-2007, 12:46 PM   #1
IllNastyImpreza
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Default Ion Implanter power wire=Speaker wire ???

ok so there is this Bin @ my work that they throw sliced or cut up computer parts and wires and such...

I work @ a semiconductor company, we build ion implanters.

SO I'm assuming all of the wires we use on the machines are going to be rather high quality wire

I got ahold of some(45ft) decent what looks like 16 gauge bi-wire that is used as power wire for something or other...

I'm assuming this would work great for speaker wire (assuming its OFC??)

whata u guys think ???
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Old 08-26-2007, 03:12 PM   #2
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should be perfectly fine. OFC is really the only thing you need to worry about especially with speaker wire.
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Old 08-26-2007, 05:03 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by Daishi00 View Post
should be perfectly fine. OFC is really the only thing you need to worry about especially with speaker wire.
sweet...thats what I'm thinking

+ the price is right
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Old 08-27-2007, 10:24 AM   #4
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If I had no clue at all about what kind of wire it is, I would at least hook it up to a meter and see what kind of resistance it has. My guess is it would be fine though.

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Old 08-27-2007, 12:32 PM   #5
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If I had no clue at all about what kind of wire it is, I would at least hook it up to a meter and see what kind of resistance it has. My guess is it would be fine though.

offset
well its definatly Power wire... Because I had to cut the huge power connectors off the ends.

so I'm guessing its got a pretty low resistance

But I will throw the ol multimeter on there just for 5hits and giggles.
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Old 08-27-2007, 02:41 PM   #6
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should be perfectly fine. OFC is really the only thing you need to worry about especially with speaker wire.
I've done some reading, and I'm starting to think that OFC cable (annealed in a oxygen free environment) is pretty irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. While OFC sounds great (keeping oxygen away), non-OFC annealing process are very good at doing that as well.

Just make sure it's listed as AWG.

In the end, this is kind of a moot point, as most stuff is OFC because the costs differences are so small.
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Old 08-27-2007, 04:41 PM   #7
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I've done some reading, and I'm starting to think that OFC cable (annealed in a oxygen free environment) is pretty irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. While OFC sounds great (keeping oxygen away), non-OFC annealing process are very good at doing that as well.

Just make sure it's listed as AWG.

In the end, this is kind of a moot point, as most stuff is OFC because the costs differences are so small.
Interesting idea. You got any links to articles or whatnot? Sounds like a very cool topic that might make cable selection even easier.
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Old 08-27-2007, 05:45 PM   #8
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This is the first thing I cold find:
http://forums.audioholics.com/forums...ead.php?t=8852

But I know it has been covered elsewhere. Specifically the speaker wire snake oil series.
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Old 08-27-2007, 06:40 PM   #9
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good find.
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Old 08-27-2007, 09:35 PM   #10
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Anything to pass along a good tidbit.
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Old 08-27-2007, 11:49 PM   #11
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sweet....so iether way it doesn't really matter
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Old 08-28-2007, 12:18 AM   #12
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I've never paid attention to the OFC or not debate... But at the very bare minimum when looking at wire, as long as it had hundrends of strands, I'd know it would fit my application (providing it was the appropriate gauge)

Power flows on the exterior of a strand of wire. And hundreds of copper wires in a 12 gauge wire offer more surface area, thus can offer lower resistance and increased power capacity vs a smaller strand count of wires in a similar "cheap," strand of 12 guage wire.

Eitherway, you will be fine.
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Old 08-28-2007, 01:59 AM   #13
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Default lol

nah im not interested
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Old 08-28-2007, 10:12 AM   #14
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I've never paid attention to the OFC or not debate... But at the very bare minimum when looking at wire, as long as it had hundrends of strands, I'd know it would fit my application (providing it was the appropriate gauge)

Power flows on the exterior of a strand of wire. And hundreds of copper wires in a 12 gauge wire offer more surface area, thus can offer lower resistance and increased power capacity vs a smaller strand count of wires in a similar "cheap," strand of 12 guage wire.

Eitherway, you will be fine.
then why does home power wire only have 1 big strand ?
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Old 08-28-2007, 11:11 AM   #15
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There is a LOT of misinformation about this stuff on the internet, and most of it is bull****. I tried to find something comprehensive, but I couldn't. So here is the quick and dirty.

At the frequencies we are talking about, I don't worry about skin affect, as it's ~3***37;. And even if it weren't, stranding doesn't actually increase the surface area nearly as drastically as people would think. Sure, the outside surface area of the cable is increased, but only marginally. Internally it makes little difference. Each strand does not exhibit skin effect individually, you will not get each conductor with current flowing evenly across the surface. Because each of the conductors are touching, the field strength is uniform through out the cable, with variations for regional wire to wire impedances,variations, air gaps, etc. Because of this, stranding in no way battles skin affect. In fact, at higher frequencies stranding attenuates the signal faster, because of the impedances it creates(more internal capacitance between the strands). This is why high frequency systems get better performance out solid wire, such as RF application, and in wall networking cables(patch cords are usually stranded for flexibility only).

However, stranding does introduce gaps in wires, where they can't touch, so the the total effective electrical cross section for the same diameter of stranded wire is decreased. This gap between the individual wires is accounted for in fill factor. When round strands form a triangular pattern, it's usually assumed to produce a wire with ~90% less copper than a solid wire. IIRC, AWG takes this all into affect, and #10 Solid and #10 Stranded have the same effective current carrying capacity.

CN: Buy wire that is cheap, and easy to install. That's often the most flexible.
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Old 08-28-2007, 11:22 AM   #16
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I saw the title and just had to come see.

So Last Resort has the same basic idea that I wanted to convey, which is that at audio frequencies, skin effect won't really make any difference between stranded and non-stranded wire. I'm also a strong believer in the fact that for every imaginary problem that people come up with, somebody is ready to introduce a solution that's expensive.

So, skin effect is the depth into the wire that current at a frequency will actually use. The higher the frequency, the less it gets into the wire. At super high currents, it will matter even at low frequency. This is why high tension wire for power transmission is actually hollow tubes. Stranded wire that is not insulated between the strands will be very little different from solid wire from a surface area perspective. Litz wire will offer significantly higher surface area because each strand is insulated from each other.

I design switching power supplies for a living and do calculate skin depth for even frequencies of 100kHz. In the MHz regions, especially with resonant mode supplies, it's very important. At audio.....20kHz, it's a don't care.

Use the wire, man. Good find.

CN: What LastResort said, with some embelishment.

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Old 08-28-2007, 11:24 AM   #17
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Thanks for the confirmation. I've done a bit with it, but not near what you have done.
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Old 08-28-2007, 04:33 PM   #18
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The only advantage stranded wire has over solid wire is the huge amount of flexibility. I got to play with some Kicker 0/1 gauge which was easily twice as flexible as my knukonceptz 0/1 gauge. Strand count is obviously less though on the Kicker, but for the small drop in total copper to the increased flexibility it's worth the trade off. I'm starting to believe more and more that we should base speaker wire off of average power handling not max, as you just reach an overkill level.

I remember installing a hot tub and I had to haul a dual 0/1 solid core wire through a house...I rather cut off my nuts again than try and make that stuff bend. A sledge became a good friend of mine that day
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Old 08-28-2007, 05:22 PM   #19
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I know of at least one car install using high end solid core home audio wire... as....


I don't know if i added to, or subtracted from, this post..... loud noises.... !!
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Old 08-28-2007, 05:29 PM   #20
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I remember installing a hot tub and I had to haul a dual 0/1 solid core wire through a house...I rather cut off my nuts again than try and make that stuff bend. A sledge became a good friend of mine that day
There has been a move to aluminum wire for really large runs (400A +), but despite the size being much larger(aluminum being less conductive than copper and all), it's hella flexible. I can wrap 1/0 aluminum around a coke can by hand.
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Old 08-28-2007, 07:50 PM   #21
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I am wondering if that's what the Kicker power wire is made up of and not tinned copper. I can bend that 0/1 gauge wire around my thumb...and hold it there with my pinky finger
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Old 08-28-2007, 09:31 PM   #22
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I can find NO documentation stating what the material is. So I'm guessing you are on to something. Which means it has a reduced current carrying capacity. If that is in fact the case, it's dirty pool to not tell people.
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Old 08-29-2007, 10:52 AM   #23
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It's HIGHLY doubtfull if that Kicker wire is aluminum, it's just to brittle to be used in the automotive enviroment.
It's most likely tinned copper with a coating to allow the strands to slide well aginst one another... Higher strand count = better flexibility as well... The insulation helps a ton to.... Try wrapping your thumb or a coke can with standard jumper cable wire....
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Old 08-29-2007, 11:58 AM   #24
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sweet, awesome news... This is my basic understanding anyway.... 90***37; of the car audio wiring market is gimicky CRAP that in no way is any better than the rest of the stuff on the market.

as far as the tinned copper goes... I understand that stuff is alot cheaper than OFC? are there many drawbacks to it ?
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Old 08-29-2007, 12:00 PM   #25
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More like 99***37; is gimmicky crap. And it ain't just limited to the car audio arena.
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