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Old 09-26-2005, 01:25 PM   #76
ChicksDigWagons
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Subie Gal

it's like this.
80mph - into a tree = 160mph impact
- speed doubles when you hit something that abruptly, just like a head on collision -

Jamie
want to learn more about physics... maybe take a class or something ???
i'm not being rude. i'm just not sure how else to explain it.


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Old 09-26-2005, 01:34 PM   #77
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well, while it is just blatantly wrong, she has something of a point...

f=ma, or f=m*(change in v/change in t) , as you decrease time (ie, abrupt impact) , the accelleration increases alot, thus the force increases, higher G's...
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Old 09-26-2005, 04:25 PM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RRR-K2
As for Rodger Freeth (Possum's Co-Driver), the shoulder belts were attached to the "original seat belt mounts for the rear seat passengers <as opposed to the cage>. When the car hit the tree, <on Roj's side> it moved that part of the body-shell back, and the belts compressed Roj's rib cage, squashing his lungs, liver, and kidneys." <taken from Possum's autobiography "Bourne to Rally">

The ironic part is that they had already moved the mounts to the cage crossbar in all the other cars, and were going to move them in that car after that rally
This actually has more in common than most of the comments I have seen about NASCAR and Earnhart. I think a few people here need to go read the formal NASCAR report

Dale's crash had 2 major factors that were totally unrelated to the cage in anyway and one of them was bad luck, the second was his own fault and something he had already been warned about

1. His initial crash vector was actually minor, but the bump from the other car basically turned him into the wall whilst he was trying to steer/power out of it. Went from shallow to basically right at the wall and accelerating.

2. He had been repeatedly warned about how he attached the torso straps of his harness to the floor of his car. The extreme angle tore one side of it loose during the first impact with the other car.

Those 2 items were the single largest contributors to the accident. There is a good deal of belief that if the belt had held, whilst he would not have been well, he would have had a good chance of survival.



As for Beef, have a good look at the car - it was square centered on the tree and short of driving a tank that could have made the tree snap and be the crumble zone, there is very little practical that could have been done.

Tragically, it came down to there being no where for the energy to be dispated to before he ran out of room.

The worst of this is that is a simple racing accident, the sort that there is always a chance of happening in this sport, and Markko will be second guessing himself. I only hope he will be able to get through that.

That will be the second tragedy in all this and one that even Beef himself would not want to see Markko scarred by.
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Old 09-26-2005, 04:46 PM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M. Hurst
Other forms of motorsports have proven that the human body is capable of 100+G impacts without serious injury.

...so increased rigidity of the car and cage to reduce intrusion can work, but only if this is accompanied by restraining the driver / co-driver better with restraints and containment seats. One won't work without the other.
What about adding energy absorbing high density sheet foam like the type BSCI makes to re-enforce the door structures & the roof in conjunction with additional better restraints?

Also, what about adding Drivers nets to the list of additional restraints? Safety Solutions makes several Drivers nets(NOT Window nets) that are designed to go between the Driver & Co-Driver to help guide the occupant back into the seat system during an impact.

http://www.safedrives.com/proddetail...olHDNet&cat=31
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Old 09-26-2005, 04:56 PM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sunnynw
What about adding energy absorbing high density sheet foam like the type BSCI makes to re-enforce the door structures & the roof in conjunction with additional better restraints?

Also, what about adding Drivers nets to the list of additional restraints? Safety Solutions makes several Drivers nets(NOT Window nets) that are designed to go between the Driver & Co-Driver to help guide the occupant back into the seat system during an impact.

http://www.safedrives.com/proddetail...olHDNet&cat=31

That misses the point of this crash.

Those devices are good in rollover/bouncing around type events where the occupants are held into their safety environment and/or where there are making momentary contact with objects like the bars and helping to protect whilst the energy around them is disapated.

The physics of this are that at the point of impact, the G forces Beef encountered would have been much much higher (like many orders of magnitude!) as that tree does not effectively move and Beef, once the little space was remove between the tree and him, would have endured almost infinite instantaneous G impulses.

I don't know of a substance on earth that would be able, in sub inch thickness, disapate that much energy.......
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Old 09-26-2005, 06:10 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tt_ttf
I don't know of a substance on earth that would be able, in sub inch thickness, disapate that much energy.......
Sorbothane shoe inserts!......no, wait....

Gary
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Old 09-26-2005, 09:30 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GarySheehan
Sorbothane shoe inserts!......no, wait....

Gary
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Boy don't we all wish it was that simple.........
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Old 09-26-2005, 10:34 PM   #83
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didn't mean to post...sorry.
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Old 09-29-2005, 11:22 PM   #84
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I was just looking at some old pictures of Martin/Park I had from rallies. I've been reading this thread, sitting on the sideline in respect of the current situation.

In short, just by looking at the 307, Michael had no chance.

There is no cage surrounding him, no head restraint, no nothing. Poor guy never had a chance. Maybe a 307 cc convertible car isnt the best car for rallying from a safety perspective. There is no technical reason for the accident, it was just a horrible accident.



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Old 09-30-2005, 03:02 PM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WRXedUSA
There is no cage surrounding him, no head restraint, no nothing. Poor guy never had a chance. Maybe a 307 cc convertible car isnt the best car for rallying from a safety perspective.
I never knew that the 307 car was based off of the convertible version. I had never looked closely, as I just thought the 307 was relatively ugly. I'm suprised there wasn't more stink when it was introduced; the lack of a B-pillar should have been an obvious safety problem. I don't care if there's an additional cage; These aren't track cars, they are meant to be driven sideways. That certainly didn't help the roof structure. Considering that door openings get seam welded, a B-pillar could have helped a lot in this situation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ilnmcom
Not sure if this helps the tech discussion here, but...
You can see in the image (and one above) that there isn't a B-pillar, just the A & C-pillars.

Tom
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Old 09-30-2005, 05:38 PM   #86
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Guh.

SWRT is running a special sticker in memorial on the rear spoiler. Check www.subaru-global.com for pics.
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Old 09-30-2005, 06:22 PM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Howl
I realize WRC team make their own stage notes, but for regional rallys with route notes maybe "Caution! Tree Outside", should be used in places where there is the potential for this kind of accident. Mind you in some rallys you may need to use it an almost every corner.

They do. I can remember all of them too. I read it, look ahead and see a tree WAY closer to the road than the normal treeline. The dangerous sections are marked, even in route books.
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Old 09-30-2005, 09:55 PM   #88
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sorry that im a little bit late with the news, but i just have three questions:

1. who was the driver/co-driver which which manufacture?
2. at which rally was this? and
3. which one died?

-Arthur.
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Old 10-01-2005, 09:57 AM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MyScoobie28
sorry that im a little bit late with the news, but i just have three questions:

1. who was the driver/co-driver which which manufacture?
2. at which rally was this? and
3. which one died?

-Arthur.
Did you read the thread? You just created your own reading comprehension quiz, you must get 100% right for a passing grade... get to it.
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Old 10-01-2005, 06:41 PM   #90
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The rallyt director quote had it right i think: design safer stages.

If hitting a tree side ways at 80mph isn't 100% survivable by any means, then remove the friggin tree!


I realize that removing tons of trees isnt possible in some places, but i would think the main areas of concern are after the apex of a turn.

also,
Perhaps some of this energy absorption material could be moulded into half-circles and then bungie-corded to offending trees before the rally.

---

with beefier door bars, one concern is getting out of the car in case the car becomes inhospitable. I'm thinking situations like fire (large or small) or being upside down in water.
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Old 10-01-2005, 06:48 PM   #91
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Better yet, why don't we just race around on tracks, with convenient ambulances and corner workers. Even better, that would allow us to dispense with co-drivers altogether. They could just sit in the pits and eat hot dogs.

I think the key is to balance the safety factor with the character of the sport. If you were going to remove all the dangerous trees at STPR, you'd deforest all of Tioga county. Then it's not rallying anymore...
- Christian
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Old 10-01-2005, 07:09 PM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by burnera
I realize that removing tons of trees isnt possible in some places, but i would think the main areas of concern are after the apex of a turn.

thats why i put this sentence in there. Of course i dont know how much an extra 20' of sliding room would help... if at all.

and again, what about putting safer barriers in front of the trees?
maybe something like the water-filled barrels on highways and such.
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Old 10-02-2005, 12:40 AM   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by burnera
The rallyt director quote had it right i think: design safer stages.

If hitting a tree side ways at 80mph isn't 100% survivable by any means, then remove the friggin tree!
.
That's asinine. Rally IS racing on real roads with real trees and real dangers - rallyists CHOOSE to do this knowing that there are trees on the apex, and every where else for that matter. Taking down a single tree is a waste of time. Let's not forget, as noted above, the year that we lost 2 competitors in SCCA pro-rally you were as safe in a rally car as you were in a street car in NJ. What are you going to do to reduce that risk, take all the other cars off the road and ban driving in the rain?

Yes, make a safer car, but do it without changing the nature of the sport, "real cars, real roads, real fast" (stolen from SCCA's old rally motto). It comes with real risk too, just like everything else in life.
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Old 10-02-2005, 11:42 AM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by burnera
and again, what about putting safer barriers in front of the trees? maybe something like the water-filled barrels on highways and such.
I know a little bit about the Fitch system. Here's a link to the New Jersey Department of Transportation design manual for inertial barrier systems:

http://www.state.nj.us/transportatio.../figure9f.shtm

From the standards, to provide adequate safety for a 1,800 lbs vehicle at 50mph, you need 6 rows of barrels, with a total weight of 5,800 lbs. For a vehicle at 60mph, add another 5,800 lbs or so. Multiply that by 30 or 40 especially dangerous trees, and you're taking about a logistical undertaking the National Guard couldn't pull off.

Given this, I think it's clear that any safety additions in rallying needs to address the construction of the car, or the speeds attainable by the cars on stage. In other words, move the occupants in from the sides of the car, make the cars wider, or stick restrictors on the car.

Seriously, this is of more than academic importance to me, but to stick bumpers on every tree in the woods is no solution.

- Christian
www.christianedstrom.com
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Old 10-02-2005, 02:22 PM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by burnera
but i would think the main areas of concern are after the apex of a turn.
Not necessarily.

You're just as likely to loose it under heavy braking (remember, were usually talking about loose/unpredictable surfaces). And when you do find yourself in such a situation, you often have much less control over the outcome than when coming out of a corner (it basically becomes "which tree do I want to hit...)

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Old 10-02-2005, 10:01 PM   #96
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Some of you have probably seen the old Air force experiments for ejection seats. In the early 50s a guy was propelled to 600+mph then stopped in under 1.5 seconds. That lead to about a 48g deceleration force, he survived....but was pushing the limits of the human body (I believe his retina were datched, among other injuries). I dont know where you guys have seen 100g+ accidents being survived. How much velocity and how little time would you need to produce a 100g decleration?
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Old 10-02-2005, 10:37 PM   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil Jr.
I dont know where you guys have seen 100g+ accidents being survived. How much velocity and how little time would you need to produce a 100g decleration?
Ever heard of the IRL?

From a meeting with John Melvin, I've seen the data / crash recordings. The data is recorded by the vehicles, many in excess of 100G, and remember, the driver sees more force than the car.

The foundation of the theories of containment seats, etc, were born out of the history of indy car driver having 100G surviveable crashes, and stock car drivers having 50G fatal impacts...Why? 2 reasons.

1. Indy car drivers were / are fitted so tightly in their cars, stock car drivers were not restrained (side to side) above the torso.

2. In the pre-hans days, the Indy car drivers were hitting the steering wheel with the forehead area of the helmet in high-G frontal crashes, whereas the stock car drivers were hitting the steering wheel with the chin or chin bar area of the helmet...and yes, the body compression / belt stretch does allow your head to hit the wheel even when tightly belted in, in rally cars too!

Once again, this is not a comment on recent events, and intrusion is a completely different issue.
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Old 10-02-2005, 10:45 PM   #98
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yes, I have heard of the "in real life"....

can you give an specific examples? I am mainly curious to see what speeds and times are involved to create a 100g decleration...
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Old 10-02-2005, 10:53 PM   #99
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Robby Gordon's accident in practice at Michigan a few years ago was recorded at -115G. Robby is alive. I don't know the specific speed and distance of the crash, but I think 200mph and about 16" of compression are fair guesses.

Kenny Bräck's accident in Texas, 2003, was measured in excess of 190G. He was going 220mph, apparently.

- Christian

Last edited by bjorn240; 10-02-2005 at 11:08 PM.
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Old 10-03-2005, 01:41 AM   #100
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It not the absolute speed, its the difference or "delta V".

An example Dr. Melvin used a Scott Goodyear crash from the IRL, with a "delta V" of over 60mph over approximately 0.1 second, with a peak force of 135G. Goodyear suffered a leg fracture and a temporary loss of consciousness.
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