6 speed transmission axle seal retainer/ sundial leak

[danger1138]

Hey all. currently running a JDM forester 6 speed transmission on my 06 forester xt. Recently went to get a driver side front axle along with that sides axle seal replaced at a small mom and pop shop. This transmission uses the older sti 'female' axles. transmission oil seems to be leaking now.

Yes, the correct side axle seal was used for the job.

I noticed in order to replace the axle seal, they removed the sundial. Ive read that these sundials are preloaded and cant just be screwed back in place like you would any screw w/ threads on it. They must/should be screwed back exactly the way it was installed, counting the # of revolutions originally to prevent any type of leak.

With all my trust lost in this shop, i plan to tackle this job myself. How can i go about 'resetting', so to say, the sundial, back to its normal place? and yes once in there i will replace the sealing o-ring on the sundial, most likely new axle seal as well.

[arse_sidewards]

The sundial preloads the carrier bearing. The position is about preload, not leaking.

[Elbert Bass]

Most common practice is to index the dial/case with a small punch mark then count the number of turns it takes to remove.
Hopefully that is how the shop did it...
The only other option is get the FSM and some special tools.
Odds are they did not replace the carrier (sundial) O-ring and that is where it is leaking. The big deal is to be sure everything is super clean - those fine threads are easily stripped. I once watched a Subaru tech strip a carrier, then strip a case with the new carrier.

[danger1138]

Originally Posted by Elbert Bass

Most common practice is to index the dial/case with a small punch mark then count the number of turns it takes to remove.
Hopefully that is how the shop did it...
The only other option is get the FSM and some special tools.
Odds are they did not replace the carrier (sundial) O-ring and that is where it is leaking. The big deal is to be sure everything is super clean - those fine threads are easily stripped. I once watched a Subaru tech strip a carrier, then strip a case with the new carrier.

so you advise, marking the dial, counting turns to remove, replace o-ring, & re-install?

[arse_sidewards]

Originally Posted by danger1138

so you advise, marking the dial, counting turns to remove, replace o-ring, & re-install?

Yeah that should do it. Throw a dab of pipe thread sealant on the threads for good measure if you want (more important with the style that has the O-ring below the threads since those tend to get crusty and corrode)



The fancy socket is $50 if you want to use it but a punch works fine if you're careful.

[danger1138]

Originally Posted by arse_sidewards

Yeah that should do it. Throw a dab of pipe thread sealant on the threads for good measure if you want (more important with the style that has the O-ring below the threads since those tend to get crusty and corrode)



The fancy socket is $50 if you want to use it but a punch works fine if you're careful.

thanks bro. Ive watched a few videos on this, they used some type of oil filter socket, the has 3-4 claws. That'll cling on to the knubs of the dial.

[Charlie-III]

Originally Posted by danger1138

so you advise, marking the dial, counting turns to remove, replace o-ring, & re-install?

That gets you back to a possibly incorrect bearing preload. The shop should have marked the sundial BEFORE removing it when doing the seal. If they didn't no clue on where you are now.
@Elbert Bass referenced the proper fix now which is to measure backlash to set the sundial. Not a trivial task.

Doing anything else is guessing on preload, thus maybe an issue down the road.

I would start by looking for a reference mark the shop may have made. Or, ask if they did so and counted turns. A new seal or O-ring won't make a difference in bearing preload (which is the purpose of the sundial)

[danger1138]

Originally Posted by Charlie-III

That gets you back to a possibly incorrect bearing preload. The shop should have marked the sundial BEFORE removing it when doing the seal. If they didn't no clue on where you are now.
@Elbert Bass referenced the proper fix now which is to measure backlash to set the sundial. Not a trivial task.

Doing anything else is guessing on preload, thus maybe an issue down the road.

I would start by looking for a reference mark the shop may have made. Or, ask if they did so and counted turns. A new seal or O-ring won't make a difference in bearing preload (which is the purpose of the sundial)

I understand that the shop should have marked the dial, but they did not. Now im in this predicament.

I drove the car after the "fix" from the crappy shop for about 100 or so miles, at times spiritedly & did not experience nor notice anything adverse while going thru the gears, so safe to assume the pre load was sorta on the mark; right? So i believe this can be a good starting point?

Also, my leak isnt anything severe. There isnt any puddle on the ground or anything of that sort. When i get under the vehicle i notice oil originating from the axle seal / sundial portion to the drain plug.
Im not even sure if its leaking from sundial seal or from axle seal. Will post a picture.

[danger1138]

Originally Posted by arse_sidewards

The sundial preloads the carrier bearing. The position is about preload, not leaking.

thank you, but regardless of my bad terminology, how do i go about finding a solution to my problem?

[arse_sidewards]

https://www.company23.com/products/suspension

[danger1138]

Originally Posted by arse_sidewards

https://www.company23.com/products/suspension

Holy hell, thanks bud. will probably get that tool instead of re purposing another for the job.

[arse_sidewards]

The sundial doesn't really change backlash if you're only touching one of them.

Think of it like a machinist vise with two traveling jaws. If you're only moving one jaw you're not affecting absolute position (enough to matter), just preload.

Secondly, it's really hard to have "too much" preload. Carrier bearings ****ing love preload. On truck rear axles where you can set preload with side adjusters (e.g. some GM axles) it's not unheard of for people who are pushing the limits of what the axle can take to make custom striking wrenches to get them extra tight and on axles where you don't have side adjusters those same people will put the axle in the sun and put the carrier in the freezer to get an extra 5-10 thou. This doesn't really apply to you since you're limited by the torque the aluminum in aluminum threads can take and the torque the tool can apply to those little tabs and even if that weren't an issue the big floppy aluminum casting would just spread. But the point is don't worry about having a little too much preload.

[danger1138]

I couldn't sleep, been thinking about this for hours hoping my transmission doesn't grenade. I'm OCD, had a 5 spd go on me because I had a small leak I did not take serious.

Thanks for the heads up. So if I'm understanding what you posted correctly , since the passenger side dial was not touched (driver side is where dial came off in order to service axle seal); its really just a matter of counting total turns it takes to remove dial, cleaning things up, replace dial o-ring with a new one, replace axle seal correctly , and reinstalling dial according to number of turns it took to remove? Correct?

Also with this older version 6spd (axle stubs in transmission/female axles); must the sundial be removed in order to install axle seals?

[arse_sidewards]

You should be able to do the seal without pulling the dial. Same as a pinion seal, sector shaft seal, trans output, etc, etc.

If you do remove the dial:

Mark dial, remove dial counting turns, do your stuff, replace dial. If it's not tight when you spin it back the same number of turns and get it back to the mark go until it's tight (there should be a distinct point where it gets tight (if you've ever seated bearings on a spindle this is basically the same feeling I'm talking about) since these are all solid metal objects butting together) then add a tiny bit for preload. Maybe 1/2 to 1 "mark" on the dial, not enough to flex things and change backlash, just enough to add a bit of preload.

[danger1138]

Originally Posted by arse_sidewards

You should be able to do the seal without pulling the dial. Same as a pinion seal, sector shaft seal, trans output, etc, etc.

If you do remove the dial:

Mark dial, remove dial counting turns, do your stuff, replace dial. If it's not tight when you spin it back the same number of turns and get it back to the mark go until it's tight (there should be a distinct point where it gets tight (if you've ever seated bearings on a spindle this is basically the same feeling I'm talking about) since these are all solid metal objects butting together) then add a tiny bit for preload. Maybe 1/2 to 1 "mark" on the dial, not enough to flex things and change backlash, just enough to add a bit of preload.

I just pulled the trigger and purchased the Company 23 dial socket. But here's the thing; i presume the dial will have to come out. My transmission has stubs coming off of it, uses female style axles like the older 04 sti transmissions used to use.

Lmk if im missing something here..

[arse_sidewards]

Originally Posted by danger1138

I just pulled the trigger and purchased the Company 23 dial socket. But here's the thing; i presume the dial will have to come out. My transmission has stubs coming off of it, uses female style axles like the older 04 sti transmissions used to use.

Lmk if im missing something here..

Have you ever replaced a pinion seal on a differential without removing the pinion (i.e. the normal way)? Seal replacement with the stubs in should go like that but more ****ty because you're working in a smaller space.


You shouldn't need to pull the dial.

[danger1138]

Originally Posted by arse_sidewards

Have you ever replaced a pinion seal on a differential without removing the pinion (i.e. the normal way)? Seal replacement with the stubs in should go like that but more ****ty because you're working in a smaller space.


You shouldn't need to pull the dial.

Nope, i have not ever replaced a pinion seal on a diff.

But i'd like to replace the o-ring on the sundial if im already in there since it was touched already by these mechanic hacks. That may be the reason for my slight leak.

[arse_sidewards]

Originally Posted by danger1138

Nope, i have not ever replaced a pinion seal on a diff.



But i'd like to replace the o-ring on the sundial if im already in there since it was touched already by these mechanic hacks. That may be the reason for my slight leak.

Well the TL;DR is that you just rip it out with a seal puller (or go around the edge under the metal lip with a screwdriver if you're trying to save it) and install the new one with a socket or sleeve of pipe or whatever and the shaft doesn't really cause a problem.



But if you're pulling the sundial then just do the seal with it out.

[Charlie-III]

Can you see a stamped number on the seal face, or molded into the rubbery part?

[danger1138]

Originally Posted by Charlie-III

Can you see a stamped number on the seal face, or molded into the rubbery part?

i have not checked yet. Will probably tackle this project over the next several days since i have a second vehicle. Takes a toll on my back getting underneath car so many times.

I trust the long time users here on NASIOC and other forums than i do most if not all subaru dealerships.

Most threads ive read on the forums regarding axle seal replacements on my specific style 6 speed transmission (early 04 sti / axle stubs on transmission as opposed to CV axle) ; states to use axle seal part # 806730042 for the front passenger side, but subaru dealership computer states that ^^ same part number is for driver side front. WTF

This thread appears to give the correct info;

https://forums.nasioc.com/forums/sho....php?t=2318375

so does this one....

https://forums.nasioc.com/forums/sho...oogle_vignette

[arse_sidewards]

It is odd to have two identical outputs on a gearbox have different seals so I'm inclined to take the dealership's word on it.

I know people claim the seals are directional but if so that should be fairly evident when you have them side by side to compare and no other gearbox or axle or anything I can think of that uses a modern rubber lip seal has directional seals. The stubs and CVs don't have anything special about their sealing surface but I haven't put them under a microscope so maybe they do.

[Charlie-III]

Originally Posted by arse_sidewards

It is odd to have two identical outputs on a gearbox have different seals so I'm inclined to take the dealership's word on it.

I know people claim the seals are directional but if so that should be fairly evident when you have them side by side to compare and no other gearbox or axle or anything I can think of that uses a modern rubber lip seal has directional seals. The stubs and CVs don't have anything special about their sealing surface but I haven't put them under a microscope so maybe they do.

The directional bit can be easy to miss......there can be small "wiper vanes" on the ID of the seal where it contacts the rotating shaft. They will have a different cant from one seal to the other.
I will guess, a seal that normally rotates clockwise (US passengers side) will have vanes that start near outer edge and move into the trans as you look clockwise "wiping lube" from the shaft into the trans.
The seals from each will look and measure the exact same OTHER THAN the little ID wipers.
Let us know what you find and if it matches my description...(guessing it will).

[danger1138]

the 2 outputs in the gearbox do indeed have there own respective seal. 100%

[arse_sidewards]

That's exactly the kind of feature I'm expecting. Usually it's knurled into the shaft rather than molded into the seal.