ESP - The competition

[zozza8]

Originally Posted by dodwrx

Truth.

I'm going to Pikes Peak during Farmington, guess I'll have to wait till Nationals to see it again.

Me too...were camping at the Ski Area

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[BeBop86]

Is it legal to have a set of whiteline rear lateral-links along with camber plates?

I know you're only allowed one set of camber adjustment per corner, but if I didn't replace both fore and aft lateral links, it should only adjust toe?

*edit* These are what I'm talking about. *edit*

[Crawlerado]

Good question. I found this:

On strut suspensions using a non-standard lower control arm (as defined
by Section 15.8.H.2), an alternate upper spring perch/seat and/
or mounting block (bearing mount) as described in Section 15.5.C
may be used provided it offers no camber/caster adjustment beyond
standard.

And:

2. On arm-and-strut (MacPherson/Chapman) suspensions, the lower arms may be modified/replaced OR other methods of camber
adjustment as allowed by Sections 15.8.C, F, or G may be used,
but not both.



So OR not both according to the rules. Now if you do this for the sole reason to get more toe I think you're still going to have a bad time with both camber plates and the adjustable arm if someone protests. Also, why... are you looking to get some insane about of toe?

[BeBop86]

It's not wanting more toe... I keep it at zero. it's mainly wanting:

-Easier adjust-ability of toe (I do my own alignments, and the eccentric bolts aren't as easy to adjust as the front toe adjusters)

-Stiffer bushings

-Beefier arm

[mccanixx]

Originally Posted by BeBop86

Is it legal to have a set of whiteline rear lateral-links along with camber plates?

I know you're only allowed one set of camber adjustment per corner, but if I didn't replace both fore and aft lateral links, it should only adjust toe?

*edit* These are what I'm talking about. *edit*

One or the other. Pick.

Besides toe. In stx I used them to increase track. (and adjust toe) In esp I use them to decrease. (and adjust toe)

[bdi]

Greg,

Were you able to measure your track width changes at home or did you do it on a rack? I always wanted to play with that but never developed a way to measure it using strings in ones garage.

[mccanixx]

Originally Posted by bdi

Greg,

Were you able to measure your track width changes at home or did you do it on a rack? I always wanted to play with that but never developed a way to measure it using strings in ones garage.

At home with jackstands and string. I recently saw people using suction cups stuck to the bumpers and string.

Seems easier and more consistent. Most annoying was getting parallel off of the rocker seam welds.

[mccanixx]

got bored and weighed the car this weekend.

2880 with half a tank. (longacre scales) Which is what it weighed in stx on the heartland park scales back in 07-08 lol

Still think there's 50lbs or so in cubic$ Seats and wheels.

[zozza8]

That is light! I need to get on the scales...Id think I am pushing 2900+/-

Nice driving this weekend, Drew!

[bradowen]

Count me a jelly too. I was just under 3K last time on the scales. Lots of things have changed since then but I would guess that is still pretty close.

The "Lincoln" springs are in. First event on them went well. Car is a bit looser but not homicidal on high speed transitions. Going to leave it that way for now.

Catch cans are in after finding the missing quart of oil in the intercooler. We will see what tells me.

New brakes are on the front. Feel much better. Not great, but very much improved. Going to up the friction coefficient of the pads and see if we can get it better. But never sure with new brakes. Is the improvement from them or just the bleeding? Time will tell...

A few other little things, fixed sway bar links, little more camber up from, fixed left side rear camber, etc.

Few more little things planed when I can find the motivation.

[Hold_Fast]

So after snapping a lateral link on my wagon this weekend, I began contemplating what I'll do to fix it, what rules allow, and the effects on my track width. 1st question, rules. I'm a little confused, does 15.8.H.2 or 15.8.H.3 apply to the rear suspension?

2. On arm-and-strut (MacPherson/Chapman) suspensions, the lower arms may be modified/replaced OR other methods of camber
adjustment as allowed by Sections 15.8.C, F, or G may be used,
but not both.

3. On swing or trailing arm suspensions, the main arms may not be
modified or replaced but lateral locating links/arms may be modified
or replaced.

Can I use STi aluminum lateral links, since they offer no advantage other than a change in track width and some stiffness?

If I can, what's the general thought on track width front versus rear? Or am I over thinking things? My options (have the TR control arms in my garage):

Stock: Front = 57.7
Rear = 57.3
100.7% F/R

Front: TR Alum control arms w/ sedan axles = 58.5
Rear: 57.3
102.6%

Front: TR Alum control arms w/ sedan axles = 58.5
Rear: '04 STi Alum links w/ sedan axles = 58.5
Dead even

Front: TR Alum control arms w/ sedan axles = 58.5
Rear: '05 STi Alum links w/ sedan axles = 58.9
99.3%

Thoughts?

[mccanixx]

Originally Posted by Hold_Fast

Thoughts?

The TR control arms are pretty much identical weight of the stamped steel but offer more rigidity. I would use them.

You can use any rear lateral link you want as long as they're not metal bushings (unless that's changed) Since the STi version would give you no additional adjustment you could do camber plates in the rear as well if you wanted.

In regards to track I try to keep the rear of the car as narrow as possible, without binding anything, and then use spacers in the front to keep it 10-20mm wider than the rear. So I'd probably do the 04 STi rears.

Another kinda cheap mod, that makes the older ones fun to drive, is the 06-07 steering rack. Not sure of your year.

[Hold_Fast]

Thanks for the input. TR fronts and 04 sti rears seems to be the way to go then.

The wagon is an '04, so updating the rack would be an upgrade in my case, which I didn't realize. I have access to them, so it looks like that'll go on my list of things to do whenever things stop breaking.

[mccanixx]

Originally Posted by Hold_Fast

whenever things stop breaking.

eh. In my experience it doesn't stop. *SP kinda means everything the expensive, fragile, way. Especially in a subaru

I haven't really driven my car in 2 years and the right front wheel bearing was toast after I let my roommate take it to,

http://www.lonepinetimetrials.com/

It was obviously going bad but still.... I'm on my 4th set of fronts with ~ 80K on the chassis

[bradowen]

Originally Posted by mccanixx

eh. In my experience it doesn't stop. *SP kinda means everything the expensive, fragile, way. Especially in a subaru

It was obviously going bad but still.... I'm on my 4th set of fronts with ~ 80K on the chassis

People always say this and I don't understand. I look at the prepared and mod cars where everyone always says "you can fix the things in those classes that break in SP." And yet they seem to have even worse reliability than the SP cars. We all know guys there on their 3rd motor in 2 years. I'll take a few sets of wheel bearings over that any day...

[mccanixx]

Originally Posted by bradowen

People always say this and I don't understand. I look at the prepared and mod cars where everyone always says "you can fix the things in those classes that break in SP." And yet they seem to have even worse reliability than the SP cars. We all know guys there on their 3rd motor in 2 years. I'll take a few sets of wheel bearings over that any day...

Agreed. But I think some of that comes from low budget engineering. Couple with the time/expense of just maintaining an *SP, P, M car and you can get behind very quickly.

I look at the work, $, and general preventative maintenance that goes in to the sprite and it boggles my mind.

[BeBop86]

Originally Posted by Hold_Fast

Thanks for the input. TR fronts and 04 sti rears seems to be the way to go then.

The wagon is an '04, so updating the rack would be an upgrade in my case, which I didn't realize. I have access to them, so it looks like that'll go on my list of things to do whenever things stop breaking.

If the wagon lateral links are narrower than the STI ones, and you want to go the route greg has (narrower track in rear), I think you would just want to keep your wagon ones...?

[wrx wagone]

Originally Posted by BeBop86

If the wagon lateral links are narrower than the STI ones, and you want to go the route greg has (narrower track in rear), I think you would just want to keep your wagon ones...?

I would suggest keeping the wagon rear track. Will help with rotation and also getting bigger tires under the wagon fenders. I would also suggest getting a pair (each rear corner) of OEM aluminum lateral links. These were available on the '05-07(I think) wagons. Pair them with some GroupN or poly bushings and a relocation kit for the sway bar. That should put you in business.

[Mechie3]

Originally Posted by bradowen

People always say this and I don't understand. I look at the prepared and mod cars where everyone always says "you can fix the things in those classes that break in SP." And yet they seem to have even worse reliability than the SP cars. We all know guys there on their 3rd motor in 2 years. I'll take a few sets of wheel bearings over that any day...

It's not a mod car if things aren't held on with zipties after they fall off on the first run.

Originally Posted by mccanixx

Agreed. But I think some of that comes from low budget engineering. Couple with the time/expense of just maintaining an *SP, P, M car and you can get behind very quickly.

I look at the work, $, and general preventative maintenance that goes in to the sprite and it boggles my mind.

Bolded the big part. I used to have an ESP WRX and now have an F500/FM. I bought it for $2500. Thankfully I have access to a machine shop with a CNC and CAD software and have the ability to design and machine my own parts (I'm an engineer). I've seen too many mod cars on third and fourth owners with some of the owners only having the equivalent of redneck/internet engineering knowledge, an angle grinder, band saw, and welder. Things get sketchy really quick. My FM was iffy the first year, missed 2 events due to mechanical. Completely stripped it and rebuilt it and it was stellar the next year. Time invested up front is a deal breaker that most people don't have.

[BeBop86]

Originally Posted by wrx wagone

I would suggest keeping the wagon rear track. Will help with rotation and also getting bigger tires under the wagon fenders. I would also suggest getting a pair (each rear corner) of OEM aluminum lateral links. These were available on the '05-07(I think) wagons. Pair them with some GroupN or poly bushings and a relocation kit for the sway bar. That should put you in business.

Exactly what I said

It looks like the '05-'07 WRX wagons use only front aluminum lateral links and steel rear. Found this picture on google images, looks like someone figured out you can use two sets of front lateral links, just that piece to attach the sway bar:

[Hold_Fast]

Originally Posted by BeBop86

If the wagon lateral links are narrower than the STI ones, and you want to go the route greg has (narrower track in rear), I think you would just want to keep your wagon ones...?

I was mainly looking for something stiffer/lighter than the steel, but since the conversation has gone this route (which is why I'm glad I asked)...

Originally Posted by wrx wagone

I would suggest keeping the wagon rear track. Will help with rotation and also getting bigger tires under the wagon fenders. I would also suggest getting a pair (each rear corner) of OEM aluminum lateral links. These were available on the '05-07(I think) wagons. Pair them with some GroupN or poly bushings and a relocation kit for the sway bar. That should put you in business.

I'll look into that. I already have the TiC race bushings in my current links, just need to get them out. Thanks JR.

[Hold_Fast]

Originally Posted by BeBop86

Exactly what I said

It looks like the '05-'07 WRX wagons use only front aluminum lateral links and steel rear. Found this picture on google images, looks like someone figured out you can use two sets of front lateral links, just that piece to attach the sway bar:

Does anyone know if the Update/Backdate rule applies between wagon and sedan as well? Maybe I can use wagon rear lateral links (because they are a "standard" part) instead of sedan ones to decrease my rear track width, but still use my camber plates?

Thanks for the picture. And I don't see why you couldn't switch to the wagon arms. The list-o-cars doesn't differentiate between body styles. And I'm planning on running the TR sedan front aluminum control arms due to this.

The only thing (I think) is not allowed sedan <-> wagon, is that I can't swap to sedan front fenders, since it wasn't offered on the wagon.

[BeBop86]

Does anyone know if the Update/Backdate rule applies between wagon and sedan as well? Maybe I can use wagon rear lateral links (because they are a "standard" part) instead of sedan ones to decrease my rear track width, but still use my camber plates?

[Hold_Fast]

Originally Posted by BeBop86

Does anyone know if the Update/Backdate rule applies between wagon and sedan as well? Maybe I can use wagon rear lateral links (because they are a "standard" part) instead of sedan ones to decrease my rear track width, but still use my camber plates?

C. Equipment and/or specifications may be exchanged between different years and models of a vehicle if:
(a) the item is standard on the year/model from which it was taken,
and
(b) the years/models are listed on the same line of Appendix A, Street
Prepared Classes.
The updated/backdated part or the part to which it is to be attached may not be altered, modified, machined, welded, or otherwise changed to facilitate the updating/backdating allowance. Standard factory installation methods, locations, and configurations are allowed. The updating and/or backdating of engines, transmissions, transaxles, and/or unibodies must be done as a unit; component parts and specifications of these units may not be interchanged.

I read that as yes, but I'm not 100% sure the double aluminum arm trick with the sway bar attachment modification would work for either of us.

[wrx wagone]

Originally Posted by BeBop86

Exactly what I said

It looks like the '05-'07 WRX wagons use only front aluminum lateral links and steel rear. Found this picture on google images, looks like someone figured out you can use two sets of front lateral links, just that piece to attach the sway bar:

Hey! That's my car!