ESP - The competition

[sureshot007]

To make the WRX (especially the 2L variant) competitive, it REQUIRES an engine swap and various other mechanical bits, like diffs, brakes, etc.

To make an STI competitive, do you have to swap any bits?

So, from our perspective, suspension/wheels/tires aside, why throw money and effort into a WRX when you can just buy an STI? It's already shown to be able to win the class. So, if we wanted to go to ASP, it's a better plan to sell the car and buy an STI....unless you are Greg. But I think there is something wrong with that guy - it's as if he actually enjoys swapping trannies.

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[bradowen]

Originally Posted by griceiv

You guys did notice that a subie won ASP this year right?

I'm stuggling to understand why most of you would rather sell your cars for a loss or spend a **** ton of money on an SM build instead of buying a used turbo and coming to ASP. Greg has already shown that the wrx is ASP worthy without any changes. I'm worried that the spac gave you guys too much to be honest. The sky is not falling.

I wish my crystal ball was a good as yours. Depending on which set of assumptions you believe in this is either a great thing to happen or a really bad thing to happen. Which way is it going to work out? I don't know. Really good? Really bad? Some mix of both?

Realistically it is some mix of both but which mix of the good and the bad? The uncertainty is what is troubling me. Do I keep spending money to find out how it plays out? Where do I stop if I go down that rabbit hole? Or just take my losses and move on?

Hopefully that helps you with your struggles. You are right the sky is not falling but just like the weather man I can't predict if it will be raining or sunny 6 months from now.

[CamaroFS34]

Originally Posted by griceiv

You guys did notice that a subie won ASP this year right?

I'm stuggling to understand why most of you would rather sell your cars for a loss or spend a **** ton of money on an SM build instead of buying a used turbo and coming to ASP. Greg has already shown that the wrx is ASP worthy without any changes. I'm worried that the spac gave you guys too much to be honest. The sky is not falling.

Last I checked, an STi is a bit more than a WRX with a better turbo.

Sent from my XT1058 using NASIOC mobile app

[Splash]

Because you aren't going to bridge the 3-second gap between the ASP winner and the ESP winner with a slightly bigger turbo.

[Hold_Fast]

Agree with all the above. For me, if I'm going to make an investment in an engine, turbo, fueling, tuning, etc, to be competitive, I'd much rather put the money into a different class and/or car.

[griceiv]

Originally Posted by CamaroFS34

Last I checked, an STi is a bit more than a WRX with a better turbo.

Sent from my XT1058 using NASIOC mobile app

in SP land it really is just the engine/turbo and the turbo is 90% of it. once you have a front and rear diff (which you should already have in ESP), the DCCD is useless. The STI brakes are useless. I'll agree that the 6 spd is more reliable but I don't see it as a performance advantage. An STI long block looks to be around 4500 bucks, aka almost as much as an aftermarket turbo kit; not even close to the entry price of SM. What am I missing?

Originally Posted by sureshot007

So, from our perspective, suspension/wheels/tires aside, why throw money and effort into a WRX when you can just buy an STI? It's already shown to be able to win the class. So, if we wanted to go to ASP, it's a better plan to sell the car and buy an STI....unless you are Greg. But I think there is something wrong with that guy - it's as if he actually enjoys swapping trannies.

If you already have money sunk into mods in a wrx, why would you sell those parts for a loss (50% value if you're lucky) and then turn around and buy the exact same parts back for an STI? also, why would you pay the sti cost premium for something that you could build for a fraction of the price by starting with a wrx?

[bslate3]

WRX gets shafted again...

At least y'all have front and rear diffs. The STU WRX's can't swap those out at all! I wish they would move us to STX with the rest of the WRX's.

Sent from my XT1023 using NASIOC mobile app

[CamaroFS34]

Originally Posted by griceiv

in SP land it really is just the engine/turbo and the turbo is 90% of it. once you have a front and rear diff (which you should already have in ESP), the DCCD is useless. The STI brakes are useless. I'll agree that the 6 spd is more reliable but I don't see it as a performance advantage. An STI long block looks to be around 4500 bucks, aka almost as much as an aftermarket turbo kit; not even close to the entry price of SM. What am I missing?

Hubs. The STi hubs/bearings are more reliable than the WRX (I had to replace a bearing the Saturday morning I left for Nationals, for instance... and I'd done bearings/hubs earlier this year, too).

If you already have money sunk into mods in a wrx, why would you sell those parts for a loss (50% value if you're lucky) and then turn around and buy the exact same parts back for an STI? also, why would you pay the sti cost premium for something that you could build for a fraction of the price by starting with a wrx?

Because I spent a metric **** ton of money to build an ESP car already, I don't particularly care to "upgrade" everything to STi specs. I'm not selling the parts and then buying and STi; I'm out. Period. Buh-bye. Like I said elsewhere, if I had to make the decision today, SCCA wouldn't even be getting my membership renewal money. After the sting of this latest bull**** decision has faded, I might reconsider the membership piece, but it's going to be a damned long time before I spend a dime of my own money to prep a car for any level of autocross again.

[CamaroFS34]

My last comment on this situation :

I've driven the Millers' Evo. I've driven SP prepped STis. My WRX is not an "STi with less power." The Evo is unfortunately a superior platform, especially in the fact that it is easier to drive at the limit when compared to the STi.

I will root for Greg whenever he goes up against the STis and Evos, but I'm not spending my money on what I see as a worthless battle. To coin a phrase seen once or twice on the back of my car, the SEB can kiss my shiny metal ass.

[BeBop86]

[quote=griceiv;42671760]You guys did notice that a subie won ASP this year right?

*Edit* Nevermind, was confusing SM and ASP. Sorry *Edit*

In order for the WRX's to use the STI turbo, that requires us to swap the WHOLE ENGINE. The WRX's have EJ255, and the STI has EJ257.

Originally Posted by griceiv

in SP land it really is just the engine/turbo and the turbo is 90% of it. once you have a front and rear diff (which you should already have in ESP), the DCCD is useless.

It's not the DCCD we want, it's the durability of the 6 speed.

This is now an option, because we can update/backdate to an automatic driveshaft and use our existing rear diff and all around axles...

BUT... the STI has MUCH better bearings and lug pattern that would require new axles and r180 diff.


Then, at the end of the day, the Evo is lighter than a fully prepped STI, can handle 30psi on the stock block, and has an even more durable transmission.

[BeBop86]

The other new thing available to us is Legacy GT is now on the same line... meaning the we can now use the 2010 low mount turbo setup.

Not sure I want to sink money into doing that... or just buy a Miata for ES or STC.

Wanting fun, while staying affordable.

[Mojambo]

Originally Posted by BeBop86

I'm pretty sure the only reason the STI won, was because he had the only dry lap... where the other competitors, the sky opened above. Winning is still winning, not trying to insult the guy, but heard it was mainly luck.

It was my STI and co-driver that took the win in ASP. I'm guessing you were not there as much as you are guessing he had the only dry lap.

Both days of ASP runs were dry with the same weather from 1st to last run on each day. We all got a fair shot. My codriver drove well both days and took the overall win beating Miller on clean runs.

The Berry EVO did break day 1 and we can all guess that things could have been different/closer.

I know it's my car etc.., but I don't feel anyone can take anything away from the way it or my co-driver performed. He took a straight up win.

I just feel that I had to defend our position...


But everyone is comparing the times from ASP/ESP 2014. If I recall 2013, Greg would have taken a top spot in ASP.


It took a lot of work to get the STI where it is in ASP. I do feel that an early WRX chassis with the STI bits swapped in is the ticket in a Subaru. I've done just about everything for weight and I'm still at 3100. However, I think I'm getting just a touch more gearing in 2nd vs the EVOs at 67ish.

If someone was so inclined to put it together, a 5 spd with STI EJ257 with dual AVCS would be the best theoretical combo. I just don't know what the 5 spd will hold. It would get the weight down considerably and much closer to the EVO.

It is not all doom and gloom, but someone would have to invest some cash. Even doing the VF52 for the WRX 2.5 swap would be right about there for power levels.

You guys are closer than you think....never mind DCCD, we run it full open anyway.

I really hope to see the ESP subie guys and gals re-think their positions and join ASP. There may be some development, but you are closer than you think.

Eric

[BeBop86]

*Edit* Sorry, was confusing SM and ASP. *Edit*

The 5spd is only an option if you want to constantly replace them.

[Splash]

I think Greg has blown up enough 5-spds that he knows exactly how many runs they'll last per rebuild. He simply exchanges the transmissions with freshly rebuilt ones BEFORE they grenade, and rebuilds the one that came out. About every 3 events or so if I remember right. If you want to get in on this constant transmission exchange/rebuild program, then the 5-spd is for you.

If not, you need to swap in the giant 6-spd and everything that goes with it, even if you use an auto driveshaft, it's still expensive.

Then there's having to swap the turbo and engines together, making it necessary to remove the WRX engine along with the turbo to use the STI's turbo.

If you want to continue the theme of constant replacement, you can add the WRX front wheel bearings to the list, though these still don't need replaced as often as the 5-spds. If you swap in all the hubs and axles with the 6-spd, this mostly goes away, but drives up the cost.

Or, you could just buy a MIVEC EVO and be done with it...

[griceiv]

so the 5 speed and wheel bearings that are "perfectly acceptable" for ESP are some how completely useless in ASP? I understand that improved reliability is desirable but that has no effect on the performance of the car.

The evo is not completely indestructible. We have to limit mid range torque to limit drivetrain damage and send parts out for rebuilds every year. this is par for the course in SP, ESP included.

An SP wrx weighs less than an evo does and that is before the UD/BD was opened up. So there is potential for them to weigh even less.

I'll also agree that a 2.0L car is going to be tough to make fast, but any of the 2.5L motors can update to the newer, bigger non-sti turbos and be most of the way to the power levels of the STI without having to change engines. stock pull out motors are not ungodly expensive, even for the STI motors.

Lets not forget that in the end you'd have one hell of a fast car that would provide enjoyment for years to come. It's damn hard to find cars that are more fun to drive when they're as fast as the ASP cars are (and the WRX's would be that fast with the allowances provided).

[Splash]

Define "perfectly acceptable"... The only WRX that has done really well in ESP gets its transmission replaced every 2-3 events. The wheel bearings aren't as weak but it's pretty seasonal (not that seasonal work is out of the ordinary for SP). That said, if you don't want to play that game, you will be putting a 240lb 6-spd in there.

Not sure the newer WRX turbos would work. They have a 90* at the end of the compressor that is made for a deeper/narrower TMIC, which doesn't fit the underside of the hoods on an '02-'07 car. (VF52's didn't show up until '09). Since the bellows for the TMIC is part of the hood, I don't think you can change those without updating/backdating the whole hood, which doesn't fit the car. AFAIK, the TD04 is what 02-'07 EJ205 or EJ255 WRX's have to use unless they go to the STI EJ257 engine to get the VF39/43. If you are building an '08-'14 WRX, THEN you can use the VF52, but it's heavier, so what would be the point?

I already know for sure you can't modify the VF52 turbo to fit, and I also know you can't modify the hood/bellows to fit. The only thing you can do is get a custom TMIC made that merges the VF52 outlet with the TMIC shape needed by the '02-'07 cars, assuming it is even possible to get it to fit this way.

All this has done in Subaru-land is make swapping an entire '07 STI drivetrain into an '02 WRX shell a necessity. It would be the best combo of light weight shell, STI power/turbo, and the longer 2nd gear on a tranny that will last more than just a few events. A little bit of creativity can enable you to keep the smaller WRX brakes (I'd use the red '06-'07 4/2-pots). But not everyone is willing to go through the expense of building this when an EVO RS is plug-n'-play.

[BeBop86]

You could do a VF52, it would just require a completely custom, one off intercooler and possibly also the plastic intake manifold...

I think ultimately... the people that are currently in ESP are getting screwed the most. People just starting are in a much better starting point.


Does anyone know if STI's replace the diff's in ASP, or use the OEM ones?

[Mojambo]

Yup, diffs are a must. Doing the rear diff changed the car, when I did the front it completely transformed the STI.

OsGiken 1Way front and a Carbotenics 1.5way Rear

[BeBop86]

My pondering

• Does the STI come with a helical front?
  
• Is the r160 a beefy enough diff to keep... rather not have to sell my Cusco at a loss.
  
• Legacy GT and GR WRX 5 spd's are now available to use. I've heard less about those breaking, and don't they have even taller 2nd gears? That way it's "beefier" while still remaining lightweight.

[Splash]

'05-up STI's come with a torsen worm-gear front. '04 has a Suretrac, which is also a torsen design, but with a slower reaction time, explaining its replacement. IMO, it's these torsen diffs that make the STIs do the hokey-pokey sometimes as you stiffen the cars up. As they get stiffer the cars tend to do more momentary lifting of wheels, which sets into motion a feedback loop of time delays and torque shifting that ends up out of sync with what is actually happening at the wheels. Clutch diffs will always keep some amount of torque differentiation, even if a wheel is airborne. A torsen goes open when that happens. Better diffs out at the ends minimizes the amount of reacting the center needs to handle as well.

It's a valid point as current R160's never had to deal with more than 50% of whatever torque the engine makes (380lbft or so?). With a 6-spd, the max rear is 65%. I do think Greg has broken one though.

I don't know enough about the newer 5-spds to say whether they are stronger or not. I haven't seen anything design-wise that would suggest it, but I'll leave that to folks that might know for sure.

[mccanixx]

I sheared the ring/pinion at the 2010 Toledo pro? We estimated ~ 800 Pro launches at that point, most of those launches were in STX at that point. It was the spider gears that broke in STX..mostly. I have beat the crap out of my cusco. 2009 with no rebuild or issues yet.

The 09+ trans appears to be stronger you just don't see *as* many fragged reports. Even running E85 so IDK.

2009 ratios WRX: 5 speed manual; 1st 3.166, 2nd 1.882, 3rd 1.296, 4th 0.972, 5th 0.738, final 3.900

2002 Gear ratio 1- 3.454: 2-1.947:1 3- 1.366:1 4- 0.972:1 5- 0.738:1 3.900 final

[Splash]

OK, so the newer 5-spd does have a taller 2nd (not really what you wanted), but I think the legacy or Forester from the same line might have shorter final drives to accommodate this. 4.11 or 4.44 if I am right.

[mccanixx]

Originally Posted by Splash

OK, so the newer 5-spd does have a taller 2nd (not really what you wanted), but I think the legacy or Forester from the same line might have shorter final drives to accommodate this. 4.11 or 4.44 if I am right.

Yeah I agree on not necessarily, wanting a taller 1st/2nd.

Only issue I see is Transmission falls under assembly of update backdate I believe. No mixy/matchy F.D's. 2005 legacy GT has the exact same ratio as the 2009 WRX, just as a quick example.

MT's are 4.11 Autos 4.44 for both the Foz and Leggie

Pick your poison. Fewer rebuilds or best gearing

[Splash]

Yeah, the 1.882 x 4.11 isn't much different from 1.947 x 3.90, but it is a bit shorter. I know the older Foz had 4.44 with MT, but that doesn't get you the alleged stronger 5-spd.

[mccanixx]

So for those playing along, here's my rough outline:

• VF52
• Intake from an 09 WRX
• Perrin Legacy/WRX interwarmer
• Tune
• Drive

Not enough power, sure. But minimal entry expense. When I was in STX I wanted moar HP, in ESP I wanted moar HP. They are giveing me the ability to have a moar faster car = moar fun.

My short block is legal as a EJ255. A set of JE pistons and it's an EJ257 shortblock. My 2007 single AVCS D25 heads are identical to the 2009 single AVCS D25 heads. Couple the pistons with STi heads and boom. I can use the STi turbo circa 2007-2011. Not a ton of expense.

I still think barring trying the dual AVCS heads and a low mount, the VF52 is going to get you within the noise of any of the other Turbos, heads, etc. Ultimately I would go this way to get the turbo as close to the heads as possible, if money weren't an issue.

Keep in mind you can get higher C.R. using wrx style pistons with allowable decking. Always good to have the off boost bump...

But I'm a drunkard anyways so maybe I'm wrong.