The Competition is Worried..G Stock is worried

Scooby South · 02-22-2001, 05:53 PM

Well..Some Are already worried about the new WRX...especially on the track...

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JayP · 02-22-2001, 06:24 PM

They're right to be worried.

AWD, torque and a light weight chassis.
That's a fun combo.

adhowe70 · 02-22-2001, 07:52 PM

I don't know....

I think autocross is slow enough, it will be difficult to keep the turbo spooled all the time. When at low RPM's the car feels like a low compression 2.0 litre car. You know, gutless. So, you either have to shift back into first gear, or drop down to low revs in second. Either way.....

I found the 2001 WRX I drove SLOWER than my RS at the bottom end of second gear. This could be interesting.

JayP · 02-22-2001, 08:09 PM

Once the turbo guys figure the car out, it'll scare GS.

adhowe70 · 02-22-2001, 08:22 PM

But you're not allowed to touch the drivetrain. In GS, you are limited to stock drivertrain (except from the 3rd cat back) and nearly stock suspension, etc.

I am indeed scared (GS comptetitor that I am) but I think the car will be less competitive than you think. If it weighed 2800 pounds like the RS, it'd be a different story. The WRX will win events, but I don't think it will dominate everywhere it goes. And, I think after its first year, it will be re-classed to a faster class. Maybe FS or DS (ES is slower.)

In short, do I want one to show up to my local Auto-X? NO. Do I think it will clean up at nationals? No. I think a well prepared and well driven WRX will win GS at nationals, but not a sweep across the board.

OnTheGas · 02-22-2001, 08:46 PM

I'm not too familiar with the GS class this past season, but if the Integra Type R is dominating this class, then SCCA may have made the correct choice in placing the WRX there. The Integra Type R is 2,639lbs @ 195 hp, while the WRX is a comparatively heavy 3,085lbs @ 227hp. Some math tells us:

1 - Power to weight
WRX carrys ~13.6lbs per hp
Integ R carrys ~13.5lbs per hp
Very close to even! Good!

2 - Overall weight
WRX carrys 3,085lbs
IntR carrys 2,639lbs
The Type R is ~85% lighter than the WRX, and that will be an advantage under braking and turning. Advantage Type R!

3 - Drive Train Part 1
WRX is AWD
IntR is FWD
Advantage will go to AWD. However, Type R does have the unusual advantage over other FWD cars in that it has a limited slip differential, which means they can be on the gas a little earlier than their FWD bretheran. So an ace Type R driver will do quite well. Still advantage AWD!

4 - Drive Train Part Deux - Torque
WRX - 217 lbs-ft @ 4,000 rpm
Type R - 130 lbs-ft @ 7,500 rpm
This should be an advantage to the WRX! Torque pulls us out of the corners.

5 - Suspension
WRX - MacPherson struts @ all corners
Type R - ? (Someone help me out here!)
The MacPherson struts worry me a little bit, as I think there are better suspension designs. For Auto-X, keeping the outside front tires in near neutral camber during hard cornering is critical. Some MacPherson strut designs have a disadvantage here.
Someone else will have to let us all know which car has the advantage in suspension design.

6 - Tires
WRX - 205/55VR16
Type R - 195/55VR15
Too close to call since we carry more weight, therefore, we are working our square inches of tire on the ground harder than the R. OTH, we are using are square inches of rubber on the ground more efficiently, since we are AWD. Due to the weight difference, might be a slight advantage Type R.

So the pre-season bench racing summary sees that the differences thusly. The Type R is 85% lighter, but the WRX is AWD and apparently will have a better torque curve. I would say a slight advantage to the WRX because it will likely be easier to drive. Oh, and also, because I'm prejudice!

[edit:fixed some typos. Bad fingers! Bad, bad!]

[This message has been edited by OnTheGas (edited February 22, 2001).]

ColinL · 02-22-2001, 08:59 PM

Uh, 85% lighter than 3085lb would be less than 500lb. I think you meant that the ITR is 15% lighter, or 85% as heavy. (3085x.85)

Oh, another point of interest-- torque at the wheels matters more than torque at the flywheel. That's what gearboxes are for! I don't feel like digging up ITR data though to tell you what the torque to the wheels is for the ITR vs. WRX in 1st, 2nd and 3rd gear.

Weight is king in autocross-- over 400lb more is a huge disadvantage. I think the ITR still wins with equal drivers... The WRX sure seems to be a much more competitive GS car than the 2.5RS though.

SUV-ETR · 02-22-2001, 09:27 PM

Remember that, next year, the stock classes will be completely re-shuffled. Word from the guy running the show (can't remember names...someone help me here) is that there will be a "factory hot-rod" class, where you'll find the likes of the Integra Type R, WRX, etc. The RS and the rest of what is now GS will probably be put in a separate class.

Regardless of where it's classed, I'm convinced that the WRX will be better than the RS, but by how much is unclear. Unfortunately, I have to agree that for this year it SHOULD be in GS. Where would it be better? FS...maybe? In GS you already have things like AWD turbo Talons, Eclipses, and TT's that are similar in weight and horsepower, not to mention 200hp 3-series Bimmers and ITRs that are known for good handling.

Neal

subrew2 · 02-23-2001, 08:10 AM

I think the WRX is classed correctly, based off the ITR, Mit GSX, and BMW 328 etc... Unfortunately, the bulk of "local" based g-stock racing across the country is filled with us "mid-runners" in the RS, Probe GT, GSR, Celica GT, Audi A4 etc.. I think the plan for separating the fast g-stockers into d-stock next year makes sense. The g-stock that will remain should be very competitive.

As to the WRX...I have no clue. I certainly know I would have liked another 65hp at a few events last year, however, I'm a fan of the mid range pulling power of my RS. I also like the 7" wide wheels, and 2800 lbs.

I hoping to run a WRX at a few Oregon Region events this year...but will mainly be running my '99 RS.

In the Northwest, the "unfair" talk is mainly from the PAX crowd. G-stock has a very low PAX coefficient. I actually finished 5th out of 160 cars last year on PAX, with stock struts and 2-year old Yokos. If the WRX is faster, it could prove to be a good pick for the PAX runners.

Chris Hartman www.subrew.com

ibis · 02-23-2001, 10:56 AM

5th of of 160 cars! Damn Chris. Lawrence was telling me the other day that if he is even close to your time while he is in the S4, he will consider it a personal victory

-justin

adhowe70 · 02-23-2001, 04:41 PM

Yeah, I have one goal for 2001....

Beat Chris (Subrew2) at 1 (one) event. With the addition of race tires, that shouldn't be out of the question. Difficult, yes, but not out of the question.

Last year I was 5-10% slower than Chris at every event, on RE 92's. I think Chris said he saw a 5% improvement from the RE 92's to the Yoko's.

02-22-2001, 05:53 PM	#1
Scooby South Subtly Outspoken Moderator Member#: 238 Join Date: Sep 1999 Chapter/Region: MWSOC Vehicle: OG05 STi 51E	The Competition is Worried..G Stock is worried Well..Some Are already worried about the new WRX...especially on the track... http://www.sccaforums.com/ubb/Forum18/HTML/000053.html * Registered users of the site do not see these ads.

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02-22-2001, 06:24 PM	#2
JayP Scooby Newbie Member#: 3125 Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Bedford, DFW Vehicle: 2001 Mustang Bullitt Black	They're right to be worried. AWD, torque and a light weight chassis. That's a fun combo.

02-22-2001, 07:52 PM	#3
adhowe70 Scooby Specialist Member#: 3363 Join Date: Dec 2000 Chapter/Region: NWIC Location: Salem, Oregon Vehicle: 1982 Reynard Blue, Red, and White	I don't know.... I think autocross is slow enough, it will be difficult to keep the turbo spooled all the time. When at low RPM's the car feels like a low compression 2.0 litre car. You know, gutless. So, you either have to shift back into first gear, or drop down to low revs in second. Either way..... I found the 2001 WRX I drove SLOWER than my RS at the bottom end of second gear. This could be interesting.

02-22-2001, 08:09 PM	#4
JayP Scooby Newbie Member#: 3125 Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Bedford, DFW Vehicle: 2001 Mustang Bullitt Black	Once the turbo guys figure the car out, it'll scare GS.

02-22-2001, 08:22 PM	#5
adhowe70 Scooby Specialist Member#: 3363 Join Date: Dec 2000 Chapter/Region: NWIC Location: Salem, Oregon Vehicle: 1982 Reynard Blue, Red, and White	But you're not allowed to touch the drivetrain. In GS, you are limited to stock drivertrain (except from the 3rd cat back) and nearly stock suspension, etc. I am indeed scared (GS comptetitor that I am) but I think the car will be less competitive than you think. If it weighed 2800 pounds like the RS, it'd be a different story. The WRX will win events, but I don't think it will dominate everywhere it goes. And, I think after its first year, it will be re-classed to a faster class. Maybe FS or DS (ES is slower.) In short, do I want one to show up to my local Auto-X? NO. Do I think it will clean up at nationals? No. I think a well prepared and well driven WRX will win GS at nationals, but not a sweep across the board.

02-22-2001, 08:46 PM	#6
OnTheGas Scooby Specialist Member#: 3807 Join Date: Jan 2001 Chapter/Region: SCIC Location: Orange, CA, USA Vehicle: 2002 WRX Sedan Silver, tinted	I'm not too familiar with the GS class this past season, but if the Integra Type R is dominating this class, then SCCA may have made the correct choice in placing the WRX there. The Integra Type R is 2,639lbs @ 195 hp, while the WRX is a comparatively heavy 3,085lbs @ 227hp. Some math tells us: 1 - Power to weight WRX carrys ~13.6lbs per hp Integ R carrys ~13.5lbs per hp Very close to even! Good! 2 - Overall weight WRX carrys 3,085lbs IntR carrys 2,639lbs The Type R is ~85% lighter than the WRX, and that will be an advantage under braking and turning. Advantage Type R! 3 - Drive Train Part 1 WRX is AWD IntR is FWD Advantage will go to AWD. However, Type R does have the unusual advantage over other FWD cars in that it has a limited slip differential, which means they can be on the gas a little earlier than their FWD bretheran. So an ace Type R driver will do quite well. Still advantage AWD! 4 - Drive Train Part Deux - Torque WRX - 217 lbs-ft @ 4,000 rpm Type R - 130 lbs-ft @ 7,500 rpm This should be an advantage to the WRX! Torque pulls us out of the corners. 5 - Suspension WRX - MacPherson struts @ all corners Type R - ? (Someone help me out here!) The MacPherson struts worry me a little bit, as I think there are better suspension designs. For Auto-X, keeping the outside front tires in near neutral camber during hard cornering is critical. Some MacPherson strut designs have a disadvantage here. Someone else will have to let us all know which car has the advantage in suspension design. 6 - Tires WRX - 205/55VR16 Type R - 195/55VR15 Too close to call since we carry more weight, therefore, we are working our square inches of tire on the ground harder than the R. OTH, we are using are square inches of rubber on the ground more efficiently, since we are AWD. Due to the weight difference, might be a slight advantage Type R. So the pre-season bench racing summary sees that the differences thusly. The Type R is 85% lighter, but the WRX is AWD and apparently will have a better torque curve. I would say a slight advantage to the WRX because it will likely be easier to drive. Oh, and also, because I'm prejudice! [edit:fixed some typos. Bad fingers! Bad, bad!] [This message has been edited by OnTheGas (edited February 22, 2001).]

02-22-2001, 08:59 PM	#7
ColinL Scooby Guru Member#: 114 Join Date: Jul 1999 Chapter/Region: MWSOC Location: Wichita, KS and Whoring, OT Vehicle: '03 Evo, Rice White '01 Erion CBR 929	Uh, 85% lighter than 3085lb would be less than 500lb. I think you meant that the ITR is 15% lighter, or 85% as heavy. (3085x.85) Oh, another point of interest-- torque at the wheels matters more than torque at the flywheel. That's what gearboxes are for! I don't feel like digging up ITR data though to tell you what the torque to the wheels is for the ITR vs. WRX in 1st, 2nd and 3rd gear. Weight is king in autocross-- over 400lb more is a huge disadvantage. I think the ITR still wins with equal drivers... The WRX sure seems to be a much more competitive GS car than the 2.5RS though.

02-22-2001, 09:27 PM	#8
SUV-ETR Scooby Newbie Member#: 1310 Join Date: Apr 2000 Location: Apple Valley, MN Vehicle: 2000 Impreza 2.5RS BRP	Remember that, next year, the stock classes will be completely re-shuffled. Word from the guy running the show (can't remember names...someone help me here) is that there will be a "factory hot-rod" class, where you'll find the likes of the Integra Type R, WRX, etc. The RS and the rest of what is now GS will probably be put in a separate class. Regardless of where it's classed, I'm convinced that the WRX will be better than the RS, but by how much is unclear. Unfortunately, I have to agree that for this year it SHOULD be in GS. Where would it be better? FS...maybe? In GS you already have things like AWD turbo Talons, Eclipses, and TT's that are similar in weight and horsepower, not to mention 200hp 3-series Bimmers and ITRs that are known for good handling. Neal

02-23-2001, 08:10 AM	#9
subrew2 Scooby Newbie Member#: 2883 Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Burlington, VT Vehicle: 2004 STi Silver/Gold	I think the WRX is classed correctly, based off the ITR, Mit GSX, and BMW 328 etc... Unfortunately, the bulk of "local" based g-stock racing across the country is filled with us "mid-runners" in the RS, Probe GT, GSR, Celica GT, Audi A4 etc.. I think the plan for separating the fast g-stockers into d-stock next year makes sense. The g-stock that will remain should be very competitive. As to the WRX...I have no clue. I certainly know I would have liked another 65hp at a few events last year, however, I'm a fan of the mid range pulling power of my RS. I also like the 7" wide wheels, and 2800 lbs. I hoping to run a WRX at a few Oregon Region events this year...but will mainly be running my '99 RS. In the Northwest, the "unfair" talk is mainly from the PAX crowd. G-stock has a very low PAX coefficient. I actually finished 5th out of 160 cars last year on PAX, with stock struts and 2-year old Yokos. If the WRX is faster, it could prove to be a good pick for the PAX runners. Chris Hartman www.subrew.com

02-23-2001, 10:56 AM	#10
ibis Scooby Specialist Member#: 1132 Join Date: Mar 2000 Chapter/Region: BAIC Location: San Francisco, CA	5th of of 160 cars! Damn Chris. Lawrence was telling me the other day that if he is even close to your time while he is in the S4, he will consider it a personal victory -justin

02-23-2001, 04:41 PM	#11
adhowe70 Scooby Specialist Member#: 3363 Join Date: Dec 2000 Chapter/Region: NWIC Location: Salem, Oregon Vehicle: 1982 Reynard Blue, Red, and White	Yeah, I have one goal for 2001.... Beat Chris (Subrew2) at 1 (one) event. With the addition of race tires, that shouldn't be out of the question. Difficult, yes, but not out of the question. Last year I was 5-10% slower than Chris at every event, on RE 92's. I think Chris said he saw a 5% improvement from the RE 92's to the Yoko's.