2022 BRZ now arriving at Dealers...

[JustyWRC]

I didn't watch the video. I just have one question. Have they had any failures directly related to this issue?

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[Kostamojen]

Originally Posted by JustyWRC

I didn't watch the video. I just have one question. Have they had any failures directly related to this issue?

How do you define "directly related"?

Spun bearings found after the teardown? Engine failure when no other issues were found (No RTV, good new oil, etc.)? Engine failure right when low pressure was seen on the gauge?

[Sid03SVT]

Originally Posted by JustyWRC

I didn't watch the video. I just have one question. Have they had any failures directly related to this issue?

Originally Posted by Kostamojen

How do you define "directly related"?

Spun bearings found after the teardown? Engine failure when no other issues were found (No RTV, good new oil, etc.)? Engine failure right when low pressure was seen on the gauge?

His/their reasoning for logging oil pressure was because of the quantity of people he/they know with 2nd gen BRZs/GR86s that have had engine failures.
They tested/logged with cars that had their pans dropped & RTV cleaned out of the pickup & excessive RTV removed from surfaces, as well as cars with engines that haven't been opened up. They also included/logged a 1st gen w/FA20 for comparison. None of the cars they logged had aggressive/sticky track tires either, they were 260 treadwear, which is a street tire that can handle some track duty, not the other way around.

Known FA24 issues:
1.) excessive RTV use during assembly, leading to RTV flaking off and getting caught in the pickup, which has the potential to reduce oil flow/oil pressure
2.) significant oil pressure drops on right hand turns while on track
2a.) Reduced oil pressure for extended periods of time during a sustained/long right hand corner while on track

When an engine spins a bearing and you perform a teardown, it's not typically easy to point to one culprit. Bearings spin due to high heat, loss of lubrication and manufacturing defects; ignoring manufacturing defects, there are several reasons for loss of lubrication. Low oil level, incorrect oil viscosity, detonation, over-revving, Pump cavitation resulting in aeration, blockage in the oiling system (filter, channel, pickup etc.).

"Loss of oil pressure" may be the reason a bearing spun, but what caused the loss of oil pressure? people are trying to find out, because it is an issue with the FA24 on track.

I'm confident in saying if you own an FA24 equipped car and just drive it on the street, the probability of failure during the warranty period is low; Subaru uses a variant of the FA24 in nearly all of their models. That stated, it doesn't discredit/invalidate the fact that there is excessive RTV used during assembly & oil pressure drops occur in right hand turns on track, both of which have the potential to result in a spun bearing/engine failure.

The excessive RTV issue likely applies to the FA24 turbo vehicles & FB25 vehicles, but the oil pressure drop issues may not.

Toyota offers a free track day & 1yr NASA membership with the purchase of a GR86; if the "manufacturer" is telling you, hell paying for you to track your car, the car should be able to survive a track day as it comes from the factory. Subaru does not do this however.

Toyotas official statement on track days and warranties:

"The Toyota GR brand is driven by enthusiasts and focused on delivering incredible experiences wherever the driver may take their vehicles, including the closed-course settings for which their vehicles are designed, so long as they are driven in a manner that falls within the terms of the warranty.

While the vehicle’s warranty excludes damage that results from activities such as misuse and racing, simply participating in National Auto Sport Association (NASA) High Performance Driving Events (HPDE) or similar NASA instructional events provided complimentary to GR owners would not, in and of itself, void the warranty. Warranty claims are evaluated on a case-by-case basis.

As always, we encourage customers who experience any issues with their vehicle to contact their authorized Toyota dealer or call the Toyota Brand Engagement Center (1-800-331-4331) when a dealer is not able to resolve a matter."

[Russ_G93]

So in other words, They built / designed the car for street use mainly. Then advertised its "Track" abilities and included a "Day on the track" with each purchase, even though the models themselves "Are not track ready." Many different thoughts run through my head on this specific list of events leading to the attention and existence of this current problem, but in any case, in my head it sounds like both the Marketing and design team needs better communication. Especially now that they have discovered a fatal flaw with their "Production to sale" Journey.

[Straight6]

Originally Posted by JustyWRC

I didn't watch the video. I just have one question. Have they had any failures directly related to this issue?

They didn't but SuBaRu BaD...

[Straight6]

Originally Posted by Russ_G93

So in other words, They built / designed the car for street use mainly. Then advertised its "Track" abilities and included a "Day on the track" with each purchase, even though the models themselves "Are not track ready." Many different thoughts run through my head on this specific list of events leading to the attention and existence of this current problem, but in any case, in my head it sounds like both the Marketing and design team needs better communication. Especially now that they have discovered a fatal flaw with their "Production to sale" Journey.

What is the "fatal" flaw here. How many failures have been reported that are related to this issue ?

[Russ_G93]

The flaw is just, don't set your product up for failure. I mean yes, thats a bit harsh as nothing is perfect, there's always going to be things going wrong (Like my sudden acceptance of cladding lmao) but, mainly referring to the Internet naggings of a couple stories of guys bringing their vehicles to the track, with a dealer paid ticket, only to experience a problem.. Caused by bringing it to the track. Just makes me think idk maybe the production robots screwed up somewhere. Or maybe they skipped taking the first few off the line to test on the track, you know... before advertising to "Hey bring your car to the track" lol. It just seems silly that there would be owners experiencing these types of oil pressure drops while cornering, on a vehicle that is designed for ..cornering. Im not saying its all of them, but it is very much an annoyance to people like the RTV issue (Which isnt that big of an issue - but people make it out to be).

[neg_matnik]

Originally Posted by Straight6

They didn't but SuBaRu BaD...

Originally Posted by Straight6

What is the "fatal" flaw here. How many failures have been reported that are related to this issue ?

Right on cue Now it's a party

[Sid03SVT]

Originally Posted by neg_matnik

Right on cue Now it's a party

Like playing chess with a pigeon....

[neg_matnik]

Originally Posted by Russ_G93

The flaw is just, don't set your product up for failure. I mean yes, thats a bit harsh as nothing is perfect, there's always going to be things going wrong (Like my sudden acceptance of cladding lmao) but, mainly referring to the Internet naggings of a couple stories of guys bringing their vehicles to the track, with a dealer paid ticket, only to experience a problem.. Caused by bringing it to the track. Just makes me think idk maybe the production robots screwed up somewhere. Or maybe they skipped taking the first few off the line to test on the track, you know... before advertising to "Hey bring your car to the track" lol. It just seems silly that there would be owners experiencing these types of oil pressure drops while cornering, on a vehicle that is designed for ..cornering. Im not saying its all of them, but it is very much an annoyance to people like the RTV issue (Which isnt that big of an issue - but people make it out to be).

IMO, FA24 was never designed to deal with this kind of sustain lateral acceleration - although, somehow, FA20 is OK on that front, go figure -.
Subaru knew it all along, they basically stated so in their quote to R&T.
I don't know what's Toyota's excuse though; because I'm sure Subaru told them that this could happen.

At this point, with mainstream auto manufacturers, I always assume I'm on my own if something goes wrong with the engine/tranny/drivetrain while on track.
The only thing we can do is take steps to monitor engine/drivetrain health while out there.
An oil pressure gauge with a good quality sender, taping oil pressure at the right location in the engine block, with programmable, RPM-based, visual/audible low pressure warning is good investment.

[neg_matnik]

Originally Posted by Sid03SVT

Like playing chess with a pigeon....

Now, I basically assume Straight6 will jump in to downplay anything that appears to, even remotely, paint Subaru's products in a bad light.
I commend his dedication

[chanomatik]

"Subaru's oil pressure doesn't suck. YOU suck."

- Straight6, 2023 and Beyond

[Straight6]

OK so we have some funny posts but still no related engine failures then ?

[shtubaru_Binky]

Originally Posted by chanomatik

"Subaru's oil pressure doesn't suck. YOU suck."

- Straight6, 2023 and Beyond

Classssssic Subaru oil pressure, Sighhhh

[heavyD]

Double Post

[heavyD]

"Engineering and manufacturing reliable engines in 2023 is hard."

Subaru

[fredzy]

Proving the oil starvation design defect without a shadow of a doubt is basically impossible without a failure occurring during instrumented test

My opinion, 6 min into this video is the next best thing. (I'm sure this was already posted some pages back.)

2022 Toyota GR86 engine failure - YouTube

2022 Toyota GR86 engine failure - YouTube

I'm trying to make a case to myself that 2-3 HPDE per year is a reasonable hobby. The RTV never concerned me. This + the pressure data (and honestly a lot of other small factors) gives me pause though, as unlikely as it would be to affect me.

[Kostamojen]

Originally Posted by fredzy

I'm trying to make a case to myself that 2-3 HPDE per year is a reasonable hobby. The RTV never concerned me. This + the pressure data (and honestly a lot of other small factors) gives me pause though, as unlikely as it would be to affect me.

I'm going to use a little bit of logic here...

I don't think the RTV issue was ever the issue in the first place.

RTV has been found in oil pickups of EVERY F-series Subaru engine since what, 2011?

First-gen Twins with the FA20 didn't have the oil starvation issue, but there has been RTV found in the pickups, and those motors didn't have pressure drops during track use.

Therefore, the engines that have failed in the new FA24 twins have probably all or almost-all been the result of the Oil starvation issue and NOT the RTV issue.

[deanstevenson]

Originally Posted by Kostamojen

I'm going to use a little bit of logic here...

I don't think the RTV issue was ever the issue in the first place.

RTV has been found in oil pickups of EVERY F-series Subaru engine since what, 2011?

First-gen Twins with the FA20 didn't have the oil starvation issue, but there has been RTV found in the pickups, and those motors didn't have pressure drops during track use.

Therefore, the engines that have failed in the new FA24 twins have probably all or almost-all been the result of the Oil starvation issue and NOT the RTV issue.

I think this is the right take based on what we know.

[Kostamojen]

YouTube (Short URL)

YouTube (Short URL)

They posted a follow up video on the oil pressure drop.

[KC]

Originally Posted by Kostamojen

http://youtu.be/8YoVsDFpaTA

They posted a follow up video on the oil pressure drop.

Wow, REALLY hates right hand turns. Which in my, and most everyones, case where speed and g's meet on a daily commuter basis, is every highway exit and onramp.

[Sid03SVT]

Originally Posted by KC

Wow, REALLY hates right hand turns. Which in my, and most everyones, case where speed and g's meet on a daily commuter basis, is every highway exit and onramp.

HPD/race track right hander g-forces are not the same as commuter on-ramp g-forces.

I am not defending the poor design of the FA24 here, just pointing out that running you engine near redline constantly and pulling high-g turns & braking events around a five mile loop is far more stressful than rushing up an onramp then turning on CC for the majority of the ride to hit those high g-forces again towards the end of your commute.

Speculating - poor pan design, by that I mean undersized for the FA24, maybe it's a direct carryover from the FA20, pickup location/design could also be the issue. The engine clearly wasn't designed/tested in a track environment, not saying it should have been, but it's clear it wasn't; the majority of the cars will never see track time anyways. A little disheartening that the baffle netted zero improvement though.

[Calamity Jesus]

Yes, thank you for informing KC about lateral g-forces. He's a total motorsports n0ob. He certainly doesn't have any SCCA championships in his past.

It's not difficult to pull 1G lateraly in a BRZ on sticky street tires on an onramp. The dude was experiencing oil pressure loss around 0.9G.

[chanomatik]

I always went hard on public roads in my BRZ. I finally sold it so I could keep everyone else safe.

#humblebrag #SubaruSaint #RealGzKnow

[Sid03SVT]

Originally Posted by Calamity Jesus

Yes, thank you for informing KC about lateral g-forces. He's a total motorsports n0ob. He certainly doesn't have any SCCA championships in his past.

It's not difficult to pull 1G lateraly in a BRZ on sticky street tires on an onramp. The dude was experiencing oil pressure loss around 0.9G.

Which fast and furious was it where they live their life one on-ramp at a time? I didn't follow the series; Tokyo drift maybe?

Semi-serious response: To expand on my original statement; a couple 1g on-ramps a day on an engine with oil that isn't hot as hell & thin as piss from being flogged around a track is very different than several back to back 1g corners every Saturday & Sunday on an engine with oil that's hot as hell & thin as piss from being flogged around a track.

Again, not defending the design of the FA24, I do not like that family of engines, go through this thread the one thing I've consistently complained about is the crap engine in the BRZ/FRS/86/GR86.

If all you do is commute/daily drive the BRZ/GR86, you're not likely to see the issues that track-rats see.

The LS was notorious for crappy pan & pickup design leading to oil pressure drops and failures at the track, meanwhile the local country club still has at least a dozen vettes parked in front of it every day with their original engines, why? Because although the LS has oiling issues at the track, those issues aren't a serious threat for a street car because the operating conditions they are subjected to are significantly milder. The lifter issue in the LS however did plague street & track cars because there were manufacturing defects/metallurgical inferiorities that resulted in failures during moderate operating conditions - similarly, BRZ/GR86 owners are worrying about the excessive RTV used during assembly that can clog their pickup regardless of operating conditions, WRX owners are probably worrying about it as well.

Different situation but similar premise: first gen Raptors had frames that would bend if you took them off a big enough jump, it didn't affect the mall crawlers & vast majority of owners though, because although they had the same frame with the same weaknesses, their trucks weren't subjected to the operating conditions that result in failure.

Driving a car on the track is the most reliable way to find it's weakest link, and once you've addressed that, you will find the next one, then the next one, then the next one....

similar but different situations:

I'm not worried about being attacked by a shark because I am rarely in the ocean; surfers that are in the ocean as much as they can be? yeah that's a reasonable thing to be worried about. On the flip side I doubt those surfers are as worried about lyme disease as much as I am because they spend way less time in the woods than I do.

I'm not worried about my car being stolen/vandalized where I live out in the sticks, especially with it being in the garage most of the time; when I lived in Brooklyn & street parked though, yeah it was a reasonable thing to be worried about.

I'm not worried about a random space rock ripping through the hull of my vehicle resulting in my death, but an astronaut? yeah that's a reasonable fear.