2022 BRZ now arriving at Dealers...

[brandon]

Originally Posted by NutBucket

Just tip the engine over like a slant 6. Problem solved.

Unfortunately, the shape of modern multicam engines does not make this as practical. Back in the days of pushrod or single overhead cam engines, the head and valvetrain were fairly narrow and typically dome shaped. So as soon as you started to tilt the engine it's "height" would start to reduce. With today's dual cam setups, variable valve timing etc. the top of the valvetrain is substantially wider and flatter. As a result (geometrically), when you start to tilt the engine it actually gets "taller" before reaching a certain angle, at which point it would start to reduce again. Now I haven't modelled the 3 pot and rolled it over in CAD to see what the break even angle would be, but I would imagine it would be fairly substantial (30 or more degrees). To actually reduce overall height you might need 40 or more degrees... and at that point the engine is getting very wide AND the intake or exhaust (depending on which way you tilt) is going to start getting really close the hood thus impeding air or exhaust gas flow. Plus at those angles you're starting to upset weight balance side to side, because the point of rotation is going to be about the transmission.

Although the G16E-GTS may fit under the hood in a motorsport application, I highly doubt it would in a road car even with a dry sump. The pedestrian crash requirements are just too stringent. I believe Toyota's choice to go with a flat engine had far more to do with keeping the hood line low than it did with COG (just my opinion). If Toyota were to move to any inline engine, I would bet good money the hood would need to be raised substantially to accommodate it... which is what you can clearly see in the Supra (just look at that Car and Driver COG article to see how much taller the Supra's hood is). Now I'm sure many would be fine with that, but there are also many of us who like the low hoodline/beltline and large greenhouse look, as opposed to the bulbous front end and squinty greenhouse of the Supra. All of a sudden it's not a minor change to add another engine choice, but rather a major change to the entire profile of the car to accomodate it.

Brandon

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[NutBucket]

Obviously it's the internet but I made that comment tongue-in-cheek...

[brandon]

Originally Posted by NutBucket

Obviously it's the internet but I made that comment tongue-in-cheek...

It is difficult to discern tongue in cheek when neither tongue nor cheek are visible. So no harm or foul. The slant engines (4, 6, and 8) were very real solutions to engine height issues, so it's easy to see where someone might think it could be a solution without thinking about how engines have changed.

Brandon

[chanomatik]

Definitely went over my head, but I learned something in the process!

[Kostamojen]

YouTube (Short URL)

YouTube (Short URL)

Good little review by the TH crew.

[fredzy]

Originally Posted by brandon

It is difficult to discern tongue in cheek when neither tongue nor cheek are visible. So no harm or foul. The slant engines (4, 6, and 8) were very real solutions to engine height issues, so it's easy to see where someone might think it could be a solution without thinking about how engines have changed.

Brandon

Definitely a good insight I don't think many people have thought much about in context of the 86 potentially getting G16 power, and a very solid point.

[brandon]

Originally Posted by fredzy

Definitely a good insight I don't think many people have thought much about in context of the 86 potentially getting G16 power, and a very solid point.

Thanks.

If you want to see what a slant 4 DOHC 16 valve engine looks like, look up the Lotus 904. It sits at 45deg, which was partially to allow development of a 90deg 8 cylinder... which they eventually did. It becomes quickly apparent that the G16 would need major modifications to reduce it's height.

Brandon

[brandon]

Originally Posted by Kostamojen

Good little review by the TH crew.

I'm sure I know these guys from somewhere... but can't put my finger on it. Regardless, it is hyserical recognizing so many of the places they drive. The track they frequently use is Cayuga.

Brandon

[Sid03SVT]

Originally Posted by fredzy

Definitely a good insight I don't think many people have thought much about in context of the 86 potentially getting G16 power, and a very solid point.

The first gen chassis has seen a lot of swaps, not saying they would pass OE crash-test requirements, but many different engines have been stuffed under the OE hood without modifications to the firewall, crash bar or hood, and not just by "some dudes in their garage" but by major outfits.

taller/longer/larger engines:
Honda K-series (I4) - notable example: KPower offers a kit
2JZ (I6) - notable examples: Greddy (also, Collins offers a swap kit)
LS (V8) - notable example: Too many, just google it
G16E-GTS (I3) - notable example: Toyota

Will it fit? Yes. Will it fit under the stock hood? also yes.

The following questions get the default "I don't know" response:
Is it something that Toyota or the 'GR' division wants to do?
Can it be done in a way that it's accepted by governing safety bodies globally?
Can it be done in a way that is profitable for Toyota?
Will it be done?

The G16E-GTS has only been available in the US for a hot minute and only in one really hard to get & low volume model; it won't take long after GRC's start getting totaled that a G16 will get stuffed into a BRZ/86 (or Miata for that matter).

[SoDealer]

At the very least, there will be no Toyota engine in the twins chassis this generation

[fredzy]

Originally Posted by Sid03SVT

The first gen chassis has seen a lot of swaps, not saying they would pass OE crash-test requirements, but many different engines have been stuffed under the OE hood without modifications to the firewall, crash bar or hood, and not just by "some dudes in their garage" but by major outfits.

taller/longer/larger engines:
Honda K-series (I4) - notable example: KPower offers a kit
2JZ (I6) - notable examples: Greddy (also, Collins offers a swap kit)
LS (V8) - notable example: Too many, just google it
G16E-GTS (I3) - notable example: Toyota

Will it fit? Yes. Will it fit under the stock hood? also yes.

The following questions get the default "I don't know" response:
Is it something that Toyota or the 'GR' division wants to do?
Can it be done in a way that it's accepted by governing safety bodies globally?
Can it be done in a way that is profitable for Toyota?
Will it be done?

The G16E-GTS has only been available in the US for a hot minute and only in one really hard to get & low volume model; it won't take long after GRC's start getting totaled that a G16 will get stuffed into a BRZ/86 (or Miata for that matter).

I'm pretty sure if my engine blew and Toyota wouldn't cover it I'd go K-swap.

I'm probably one of the biggest proponents of G16'ing the twins there is, ha. I did some rough measurements of both and yes I'm sure you could get it in there but totally wasn't thinking about the ped impact stuff. I guess a hood bulge could get you there. There isn't much space between the engine and hood on the Corolla, but the hood has more of an air gap built into it and sits super high visually. About 6" higher than the 86. Getting hit by a Circuit Edition would be like jumping into a bean bag I imagine.

As of today I'd never undertake a project of that scale so I'd only ever concern myself with a factory version. It's hard to see that ever actually happening, especially considering regulation and electrification goals.

Originally Posted by SoDealer

At the very least, there will be no Toyota engine in the twins chassis this generation

For sure. Sato, now CEO but at the time GR president at end of 2022 Super Taikyu series regarding the G16 swapped 86:

Master driver Akio Toyoda is the 86’s biggest fan, and he is has high expectations for the joy that comes with cornering and operating the car. If there is a next model, we want to make it even more enjoyable than the current version.

To achieve that, we wanted to increase the car’s agility in response to steering, so we made the engine smaller and the front end lighter.

Doing this gives the car a completely different level of agility when turning the steering wheel. We created car No. 28 because we wondered what it would be like to have such an 86.

[fredzy]

Speak of the devil. More blathem about the hybrid 3rd gen. But sounding more and more plausible, I guess.

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/n...r-yaris-triple

[Kostamojen]

Originally Posted by Kostamojen

Oooh this should be interesting...

http://youtu.be/csclgEZeyC8

Follow up to this...

While testing another prototype baffle, apparently a piece broke off and plugged the oil pickup killing the engine

YouTube (Short URL)

YouTube (Short URL)

[Kostamojen]

2024 BRZ pricing announced. About what was expected...



https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/ne...ng-the-new-ts/

[Sid03SVT]

Originally Posted by Kostamojen

2024 BRZ pricing announced. About what was expected...



https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/ne...ng-the-new-ts/

JFC that is some horned bovine defecation right there. ~37k for a parts-bin car that is slow as hell? Give us something entertaining at least; I'd pay 40k for a 300/300 BRZ/86 that winds out to 8kpm (I'd settle for 7.5k); I will not pay 36k for a ****ty FA24d with documented oiling issues.

[Kostamojen]

Originally Posted by Sid03SVT

JFC that is some horned bovine defecation right there. ~37k for a parts-bin car that is slow as hell? Give us something entertaining at least; I'd pay 40k for a 300/300 BRZ/86 that winds out to 8kpm (I'd settle for 7.5k); I will not pay 36k for a ****ty FA24d with documented oiling issues.

Subaru won't be changing the engine anytime soon, probably never during this model run, so you can go ahead and just ignore it if you consider it slow or expensive. The oiling issues will never be fixed by Subaru either.

[Dex]

Originally Posted by Sid03SVT

JFC that is some horned bovine defecation right there. ~37k for a parts-bin car that is slow as hell? Give us something entertaining at least; I'd pay 40k for a 300/300 BRZ/86 that winds out to 8kpm (I'd settle for 7.5k); I will not pay 36k for a ****ty FA24d with documented oiling issues.

**** in one hand wish in the other.

I think it's a great car and plenty fast for what it is. Keeps up with the VA STI and is faster than the WRX. Plus it's an absolute riot in the twisties. If you want that dream 40k dollar car, maybe a used BMW is more your speed.

I want a 15k dollar electric commuter that's as fast as a Model 3. Let's compare notes when our dreams finally come true.

[carsebuco]

Originally Posted by Dex

**** in one hand wish in the other.

I think it's a great car and plenty fast for what it is. Keeps up with the VA STI and is faster than the WRX. Plus it's an absolute riot in the twisties. If you want that dream 40k dollar car, maybe a used BMW is more your speed.

I want a 15k dollar electric commuter that's as fast as a Model 3. Let's compare notes when our dreams finally come true.

Most everyone who talks bad about the twins have never driven one. It was one, if not THE most fun car I've ever driven. It handled so fantastically well with just tires when I had one back in 2016. Even with the torque dip it was a blast to drive it. I imagine the newer ones are a lot better.

People only seem to care about numbers, because it gives them a false illusion of going in a straight line real fast. That's why they keep asking for a turbo version of this car, when the weight addition would throw the balance completely off.

Keep the car as is as let those who know, enjoy it for what it is.

[Sid03SVT]

Originally Posted by carsebuco

Most everyone who talks bad about the twins have never driven one. It was one, if not THE most fun car I've ever driven. It handled so fantastically well with just tires when I had one back in 2016. Even with the torque dip it was a blast to drive it. I imagine the newer ones are a lot better.

People only seem to care about numbers, because it gives them a false illusion of going in a straight line real fast. That's why they keep asking for a turbo version of this car, when the weight addition would throw the balance completely off.

Keep the car as is as let those who know, enjoy it for what it is.

I drove a first gen BRZ, I liked nearly everything about it, the engine was abysmal; it let the whole car down, ruined the experience for me.

It's a fun chassis, seating position is great, getting in feels almost like putting on an article of clothing rather than just getting into a car; similar to a Miata in that sense, but different because it's a coupe not a convertible.

I was tempted to pick up a used 1st gen & swap in something better, but they aren't cheap enough for me to consider that yet, if they are, the interiors are destroyed; anything that is already swapped has a cage and/or the rear seats are deleted, AC removed, interior is gutted, etc.; I don't want a track car I want a fun street car.

I feel similarly about the Miata; fun chassis, not enough power to make it interesting. Admittedly I haven't driven an ND2, but I'm looking for 2+2 anyways, so not really a point to it.

No I haven't driven a 2nd gen BRZ/86, they aren't exactly sitting on dealer lots available to test drive though.

I don't need an insane amount of power, I've found that around ~1hp:10lbs is a fun street ratio; the mustang & camaro do better than that, but they also weigh 4,000lbs.

[OldBlu]

Originally Posted by Sid03SVT

JFC that is some horned bovine defecation right there. ~37k for a parts-bin car that is slow as hell? Give us something entertaining at least; I'd pay 40k for a 300/300 BRZ/86 that winds out to 8kpm (I'd settle for 7.5k); I will not pay 36k for a ****ty FA24d with documented oiling issues.

Sounds like you want a Supra.

[Sid03SVT]

Originally Posted by OldBlu

Sounds like you want a Supra.

I want a lightweight 2+2 6mt FR/FMR drivers car with at least 1hp for every 10lbs of car.

Supra doesn't have enough seats and weighs 3,400lbs (3.0 w/6mt).
Related: Z doesn't have enough seats and weighs 3,600lbs (3.0 w/6mt).

The BRZ & 86 don't have enough going on under the hood & have an engine with known oiling issues, as well as the engine assembly issues.

All other 6mt 4-seat RWD performance cars on the market are north of 3,800lbs (M2, M3, CT4V-BW, Mustang & Camaro).

Like I said previously, I want a BRZ/86 with a good engine; that's easier than trying to cut 800-1000lbs out of the other 4-seat stuff on the market.

[Straight6]

Probably the best sports car for the money on the market today.

[heavyD]

Originally Posted by Sid03SVT

I want a lightweight 2+2 6mt FR/FMR drivers car with at least 1hp for every 10lbs of car.

Supra doesn't have enough seats and weighs 3,400lbs (3.0 w/6mt).
Related: Z doesn't have enough seats and weighs 3,600lbs (3.0 w/6mt).

The BRZ & 86 don't have enough going on under the hood & have an engine with known oiling issues, as well as the engine assembly issues.

All other 6mt 4-seat RWD performance cars on the market are north of 3,800lbs (M2, M3, CT4V-BW, Mustang & Camaro).

Like I said previously, I want a BRZ/86 with a good engine; that's easier than trying to cut 800-1000lbs out of the other 4-seat stuff on the market.

You want a car that nobody makes. You either make some compromises or you move on as this is a "you" problem not and industry problem.

[chanomatik]

1st BRZ was great, but definitely needed to be wrung out above the torque dip. Apparently the 2nd gen delivers on all fronts, so I'm not sure what the problem is? I do think it's overpriced, but when everything else is also overpriced then I guess it's on par.

[OldBlu]

Originally Posted by Sid03SVT

I want a lightweight 2+2 6mt FR/FMR drivers car with at least 1hp for every 10lbs of car.

Supra doesn't have enough seats and weighs 3,400lbs (3.0 w/6mt).
Related: Z doesn't have enough seats and weighs 3,600lbs (3.0 w/6mt).

The BRZ & 86 don't have enough going on under the hood & have an engine with known oiling issues, as well as the engine assembly issues.

All other 6mt 4-seat RWD performance cars on the market are north of 3,800lbs (M2, M3, CT4V-BW, Mustang & Camaro).

Like I said previously, I want a BRZ/86 with a good engine; that's easier than trying to cut 800-1000lbs out of the other 4-seat stuff on the market.

And you're an idiot if you think you'll get that for $40k today. What's a type R? $45k? And thats on a fwd economy car platform. Now you want to cut weight and have a dedicated RWD chassis?

There's reasons the Camaro weighs as much as it does. There's reasons the Supra costs as much as it does.

No **** you want a sub 3000lb car with 300hp for $40k. Not only that but 2+2? Haha. What a joke. Who doesn't want that? Every enthusiast who isn't looking at supercars would be buying one.

But welcome to reality.

Buy a used car and modify it or make some concessions.