50/50 Water/meth PI using FrostByte controller + 2 FAILsafes

[Apb_pools]

So this is gonna go one of two ways:

Po' Man Kit:
Meth kit basically with selection of nozzles, #'s and sizes to customize solution
PnP Controller
Intake specific solutions (Subaru WRX pics soon to come) w nozzles and lines for clean look

Port Injection:
Injectors - choice of size
Fuel rail
PnP Controller
May require BRZ intake or custom intake

I have someone working on the fuel rail for proper PI setup. In my opinion they are both proper, its just a matter of finesse and comfort. I will be proceeding with a Po' Man Kit.

Mockups of 4x4 setup. (4 nozzles controlled via 4 valves)





















Drivers will tap into 12v switched at front o2 connector extension PnP and controller will activate via pulling gnd to fire

Fuel pump will actually hopefully work off my starter circuit—they will never run concurrently by design since fuel pump will be controlled in 3D table not always on.. and starter ONLY starts. Will step down to 20A for fuel pump wiring.

And controller will connect in cabin open connecto for 12v switched and gnd.

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[Apb_pools]

[Apb_pools]

Busy with real work. Connecting rods and bearings ordered. I have everything i need to completely plumb a working fueling solution to my car. It should be happening as temps let down as no one is doing it but me.

[Apb_pools]

Hopefully 3 LEDs for:

Sys on
Fuel pump on
Injection on

[Apb_pools]

Radium pressure regulator on the way.

http://www.radiumauto.com/MPR-RA-Mul...tor-P2750.aspx

Dw250 pump setup too for gasoline/e85 injection.

https://www.rallysportdirect.com/pro...line-fuel-pump

[Apb_pools]

More Radium stuff on the way.

[Apb_pools]

This is slowly becoming an auxiliary fueling solution.

One could do a Radium surge tank with built in regulator, and then T off in the engine bay with easy quick connectors, BUT you need to use proper injectors due to low pressure. This requires a rail and mounting solution for injectors--complicated.

Second option is completely separate fueling solution, which is what i am building and hoping to use high pressure 80psi-90psi, to achieve some type of spray pattern thru nozzles. Less complicated but also more redneck due to drilling in OEM intake.

In either first or second scenario, the additional injections are controlled by a separate controller and logic not interfacing with ECU.

Waiting on T brackets for the DW250iL pump. Already received Radium Engineering hardware. Also waiting on OEM sensor connectors to be able to tap into boost and rpm without modifying oem wiring.

[Apb_pools]

[Apb_pools]

Got controller wired in along with the injection system control module. Tested driving along for proper function, system is dry (no fuel connected) hence blue blinking twice (controller telling me pressure is low).

So happy with how it works so far. I am only using one table/bank to fire 2 solenoids which inject using 4 nozzles.

Progress was slow because this is a side side side hobby, but its picked up significantly since the temps have dropped. Still have to pwr up fuel pump in trunk, secure tank to trunk and plumb it all out to the front fuel filter which has been waiting on the air filter box for months.. patiently.

[Apb_pools]

Got controller wired in along with the injection system control module. Tested driving along for proper function, system is dry (no fuel connected) hence blue blinking twice (controller telling me pressure is low).

YouTube (Short URL)

YouTube (Short URL)

So happy with how it works so far. I am only using one table/bank to fire 2 solenoids which inject using 4 nozzles.


LEDs: Blue controller on/errors, fuel pump missing, green is injectors ready/injecting.

My turbo switch


Progress was slow because this is a side side side hobby, but its picked up significantly since the temps have dropped. Still have to pwr up fuel pump in trunk, secure tank to trunk and plumb it all out to the front fuel filter which has been waiting on the air filter box for months.. patiently.

[PyroguyFTW]

Damn, I've been away too long. There wasn't even an FA24 forum when I was last here. I've been going down nearly this exact road since May last year.

First meth into stock TMIC(post-core), then into post-FMIC piping.

I'm waiting for a flex sensor to come out before changing to a secindary injection setup, and intend on using something like a Split Second AIC to kick off a set of pre-TB small injectors. I like the power bump with the meth, but I don't like having to change over and the upkeep of the system. Plus, when e85 is a viable option for a daily, it'll have similar effects to the meth.

Right now my biggest hurdles are 1) figuring out what kind of injectors will offer the best atomization, to get the most even distribution
2) what the most effective way to trigger them will be. I liked the concept of IBR's SIC01, but this has been on the market a while now, and it seems like they've been inactive. When I've reached out, they don't seem too interested in working with anyone to develop for the '22 and up chassis. Not to mention that the SIC is programmed for ID1050Xs, which are way more than I'd need with a goal of ~500hp.

[Apb_pools]

We can control any proper injector of your choice or solenoids/nozzles. Up to you.

With a goal of 500whp you do NOT need either. You need stg1 turbine and proper e40 send it tune for 480-490whp.

[Apb_pools]

Dbl post***8230; additionally i tested a set of nozzles at 160psi meth pump and it was injecting 242cc/min with minimal -/+1cc error.

[PyroguyFTW]

Originally Posted by Apb_pools

We can control any proper injector of your choice or solenoids/nozzles. Up to you.

With a goal of 500whp you do NOT need either. You need stg1 turbine and proper e40 send it tune for 480-490whp.

The plan is 500whp, but also to get the charge cooling and valve cleaning that comes as a side effect of auxiliary injection.

I am still working on the idea, and piecing things together.

[Apb_pools]

Originally Posted by PyroguyFTW

The plan is 500whp, but also to get the charge cooling and valve cleaning that comes as a side effect of auxiliary injection.

I am still working on the idea, and piecing things together.

Best and cheapest solution is AEM kit and smallest nozzle into your charge pipe, hopefully it has a bung in it. You most likely wont need a tune either, ecu can self adjust if 250cc single injector of 50/50-70/30 or even full meth. Id do 50/50 for cleaning, cooling and convenience (safety).

There are more costly and elaborate ways to do the above, but not necessary.

[PyroguyFTW]

Originally Posted by Apb_pools

Best and cheapest solution is AEM kit and smallest nozzle into your charge pipe, hopefully it has a bung in it. You most likely wont need a tune either, ecu can self adjust if 250cc single injector of 50/50-70/30 or even full meth. Id do 50/50 for cleaning, cooling and convenience (safety).

There are more costly and elaborate ways to do the above, but not necessary.

I'm already running the meth. I've been for about a year and a half.
You definitely need a tune if you're running the methanol for power, even if you're running a 30% mix from a 250cc nozzle. It highly depends on how you're triggering it, as well. If you're just using it for cleaning, it's best keep the volume of the spray to a minimum, so long as you limit it to mostly WOT pulls to ensure you aren't messing with closed loop fueling.

My goal is to run a secondary injection setup that augments the standard DI in order to get charge cooling and valve cleaning, without any of the drawbacks of meth(AL degradation, maintenance, failure issues, etc). By my math, it will need to be at least 1.5' off the throttle body for the evaporative benefits to be fully realized, but I'm starting to think that I'll be sacrificing some of that cooling for packaging reasons.

[bt353]

Kudos on the build, love me some crazy projects. Anyways, if you want a flex fuel sensor/analyzer, BMS makes one under Fuel It! Priced retarded imo, but it is what it is. On another note, you mentioned a plan for hotside turbo WMI, but thats just an awful idea lol. On the other hand you can do pre-turbo injection which does wonders in improving efficiency and essentially shifts your compressor map to the right so you can flow more and hit higher boost. And on a final note, idk if youre even doing wmi anymore or straight up auxiliary fueling with injectors, but you should use some real nozzles and go for the AEM’s because atomization really does make an enormous difference in dropping IATs and improving efficiency.

[Apb_pools]

Originally Posted by bt353

Kudos on the build, love me some crazy projects. Anyways, if you want a flex fuel sensor/analyzer, BMS makes one under Fuel It! Priced retarded imo, but it is what it is. On another note, you mentioned a plan for hotside turbo WMI, but thats just an awful idea lol. On the other hand you can do pre-turbo injection which does wonders in improving efficiency and essentially shifts your compressor map to the right so you can flow more and hit higher boost. And on a final note, idk if youre even doing wmi anymore or straight up auxiliary fueling with injectors, but you should use some real nozzles and go for the AEM’s because atomization really does make an enormous difference in dropping IATs and improving efficiency.

I may have misspoke about turbine volute injection but it’s exactly what i had planned originally. Then changed minds, for now.

Yes i switched to straight e54% fueling using snowperformance nozzles. We can use injectors, any ones youd like but how do we attach them to the ports? Tapping for a nozzle seems quick n painless. Now im waiting to have my engine pulled and studded and rodded.

Things are about to get tested in the real world, hopefully putting a vb chassis into 9’s

Stay tuned.. pun intended.

[PyroguyFTW]

Originally Posted by bt353

Kudos on the build, love me some crazy projects. Anyways, if you want a flex fuel sensor/analyzer, BMS makes one under Fuel It! Priced retarded imo, but it is what it is.

Their product only works with the JB4, and as such isn't really a good idea for high power builds. You can't adjust any tables to account for the ethanol content, and all it gets you is more boost. If you're already running a stock turbo, FMIC, and downpipe, more boost won't help you much. You need more timing.

Originally Posted by bt353

On the other hand you can do pre-turbo injection which does wonders in improving efficiency and essentially shifts your compressor map to the right so you can flow more and hit higher boost.

This isn't a good idea with a street car. You'll cause excessive impeller wear due to the corrosion caused by the meth. Pure water would be okay, but depending on power levels and intercooler efficiency, you may end up with condensate in the IC.

Originally Posted by bt353

And on a final note, idk if youre even doing wmi anymore or straight up auxiliary fueling with injectors, but you should use some real nozzles and go for the AEM’s because atomization really does make an enormous difference in dropping IATs and improving efficiency.

AEM's nozzle is very good, but the issue is that there isn't any precise control over it. Using it for fuel is kind of an all-or-nothing endeavor. As the flow is controlled by the pump, wear can cause a drop in volume which can spell death for your engine. A fuel pump and injectors that pulse may cost some atomization, but will not have 90% of the dangers incurred by methanol.

All of this is coming from someone who has been running it for over 18 months in a VB.

[Apb_pools]

I been running ethanol for 15k miles blind, without a flex kit. Nonissue. Just mix close enough or have straight mixes at pump.

Impeller damage, i was told over phone from multiple pros as well as read online, is mostly caused by water. Water takes more energy/heat to evaporate and it hitting impellers causes micro cavitations.. pure meth apparently atomizes at low temps like 70deg so it instantly aerosolizes and condenses air. This pure meth. Water also heavier. So water is a combo of aerosolizing later (at greater temps) and being heavier when "hitting" impellers when not aerosolized.

I plan on injecting e54% or e85 which contains gasoline so i will call some experts back and re-ask a question but using gasoline or ethanol to inject pre turbo.

What are you injecting pyroguyftw?

[Apb_pools]

Only pure alcohols like methanol and ethanol should be sprayed pre turbo, word is from two different sources.

[PyroguyFTW]

Originally Posted by Apb_pools

I been running ethanol for 15k miles blind, without a flex kit. Nonissue. Just mix close enough or have straight mixes at pump.

I am aware that it works. It's just not my preference. I don't feel like testing fuel quality at the pump, and I don't see much purpose in tuning for a blend with enough safety margin that it will cover getting a tank of E55 as a base fuel. Especially so when considering that I will be going for a sensor-based tune when available.

Originally Posted by Apb_pools

Impeller damage, i was told over phone from multiple pros as well as read online, is mostly caused by water. Water takes more energy/heat to evaporate and it hitting impellers causes micro cavitations.. pure meth apparently atomizes at low temps like 70deg so it instantly aerosolizes and condenses air. This pure meth. Water also heavier. So water is a combo of aerosolizing later (at greater temps) and being heavier when "hitting" impellers when not aerosolized.

I plan on injecting e54% or e85 which contains gasoline so i will call some experts back and re-ask a question but using gasoline or ethanol to inject pre turbo.

I'm not sure what experts you're referring to, but unless converting a turbo into a wear item is an acceptable practice for you, spraying corrosive fluids into it is never a good idea. While the mass of water can cause issues, with proper atomization it does not. When it is being sprayed and not fully atomizing, typically your impeller speed is low enough that it is inconsequential.

When looking at alcohols, there are times you will be introducing droplets into the impeller(shifting, cold ambient temps[depending on intake], during engine warmup[depending on injector control], etc.) and that can still cause corrosion. It's not my cup of tea, but my background heavily revolves around chemical interactions and this is just based on my experiences. I'm not a professional tuner, so naturally my knowledge isn't applicable to cars according to some.

Originally Posted by Apb_pools

What are you injecting pyroguyftw?

I am injecting a 50/50 blend via a 1000cc nozzle when running my methanol tune. Pre-tuning I ran about ~100cc of 30/70 blend that triggered at WOT.

[Apb_pools]

Originally Posted by PyroguyFTW

I am aware that it works. It's just not my preference. I don't feel like testing fuel quality at the pump, and I don't see much purpose in tuning for a blend with enough safety margin that it will cover getting a tank of E55 as a base fuel. Especially so when considering that I will be going for a sensor-based tune when available.

Not sure what you meant by bolded statement.

I have 3 tunes. 91oct, 50% and 83%. I run 50% exclusively and it doesnt matter if your mix is 45% or 55% as car will correct to meet requested afr. There is no flex sensor tuning or flex tune available so flex sensor is useless. Having said this my pumps consistently have 83% and 51%, i last tested in 2018 and ran my 2018 flex tuned wrx as well so could see exact mix concentrations with it.

If you need to see it, fuel it has a bluetooth setup to your phone. Also there is diy for flex kit on these forums, its how i ran my 2018 for 65k miles. You just dont have anywhere to accept 0.5-4.5v output relaying your ethanol concentration.

https://burgertuning.com/products/fl...tooth-analyzer

[Apb_pools]

Originally Posted by bt353

Kudos on the build, love me some crazy projects. Anyways, if you want a flex fuel sensor/analyzer, BMS makes one under Fuel It! Priced retarded imo, but it is what it is. On another note, you mentioned a plan for hotside turbo WMI, but thats just an awful idea lol. On the other hand you can do pre-turbo injection which does wonders in improving efficiency and essentially shifts your compressor map to the right so you can flow more and hit higher boost. And on a final note, idk if youre even doing wmi anymore or straight up auxiliary fueling with injectors, but you should use some real nozzles and go for the AEM's because atomization really does make an enormous difference in dropping IATs and improving efficiency.

So i agree with you. My personal setup is gonna be pure fueling with 83% or 51% ethanol blend and i cannot spray that pre turbo, otherwise i would at least 25-33% of my fueling would go pre-turbo (in methanol only setup).

I installed this recently on another VB with a big ETS kit capable of 36psi and 900hp, i strongly advised client to move his 5th nozzle from charge pipe to pre turbo ETS airbox pipe, after tuning first with it in charge pipe, then run that same tune (with nozzle now pre turbo). Retune as necessary, and compare results. Time will tell if they will listen to me as they have never sprayed meth pre-turbo only nitrous.

My guess is they would see 2-3psi extra "out of nowhere" (on a 36psi) with pre-turbo meth injection.

[PyroguyFTW]

Originally Posted by Apb_pools

Not sure what you meant by bolded statement.

I have 3 tunes. 91oct, 50% and 83%. I run 50% exclusively and it doesnt matter if your mix is 45% or 55% as car will correct to meet requested afr. There is no flex sensor tuning or flex tune available so flex sensor is useless. Having said this my pumps consistently have 83% and 51%, i last tested in 2018 and ran my 2018 flex tuned wrx as well so could see exact mix concentrations with it.

If you need to see it, fuel it has a bluetooth setup to your phone. Also there is diy for flex kit on these forums, its how i ran my 2018 for 65k miles. You just dont have anywhere to accept 0.5-4.5v output relaying your ethanol concentration.

https://burgertuning.com/products/fl...tooth-analyzer

Flex is in the works, along with CAN input options. As for what I said, I am not a fan of tuning for a specific content, because no respectable tuner will tune for that without a large safety margin in both fueling and spark tables. I don't see a point in getting a tune for an E60 blend when the power gains will only be marginal at best over e30, which is only marginal over 91/93 in the stock configuration, when flex fuel is coming out in the near future.

While I am aware of the massive difference in power potential between the three, and how well the ECU can compensate for the difference in lambda, it's not ideal for power to have that kind of discrepancy.
An ideal E60 blend on a 93 base would yield about 101 octane. Let's say you fill up at a station with a really poorly mixed E pump that's coming out at 55%. You now have a tank of E40 with a maximum of 98 octane. While the rich condition will help to offset the decreased octane, it won't do your engine any favors to be running that much richer.

And that's also assuming the tuner doesn't leave any wiggle room for incorrect math on the driver's part when filling up. It's just not my cup of tea.

As for fuel-it, I am not a fan of Burger after some poor interactions with their personnel when I was considering a JB4 as a meth controller. My gripes aside, what good does it do to see the content after filling up if you can't do anything about it?