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Old 08-29-2005, 01:12 AM   #1
04STiguy
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Default Cobb AP Street tuner / Pro tuner and PE 850's

Looking for some AP street tuner assistance. I am putting PE850's in my 05 STI. Need to know what injector latency values and injector scalar to use from those who have done this already.


Thanks all!!!
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Old 08-29-2005, 01:29 AM   #2
Christian.
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You should not have to adjust latency for the PE 850s. Start with 3034 for the scaler value and the vehicle should start right up. Do you have an intake on the vehicle or the stock MAF housing and air box?

Christian.
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Old 08-29-2005, 01:58 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Christian.
You should not have to adjust latency for the PE 850s. Start with 3034 for the scaler value and the vehicle should start right up. Do you have an intake on the vehicle or the stock MAF housing and air box?

Christian.
AccessECU Trainer
That is the scalar I am starting with. I temporarily have the stock MAF and housing for now so I can get the injector scaling nailed.

Just wanted to get fedback from someone who has run a vehicle with this exact combo. Can I expect 100% OEM idle/driveabilty?

Thanks!
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Old 08-29-2005, 12:24 PM   #4
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OEM drivability will all depend on your parts combination. The closer you stick with OEM parts and operation...the better the drivability. Keep the BOV recirculation, keep the stock MAF housing and intake piping, etc. Just analyze how the vehicle is responding then give the motor what it wants. PE850s can be made to drive well. On some combinations with the PE850s I needed to adjust the Tip-in Enrichment table, which is a base table and will be a bit more difficult to tune, flash base map, and then review changes. Make sense? What type of power do you plan on making, what parts combinations, etc.?
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Old 08-29-2005, 01:02 PM   #5
04STiguy
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Tip-in Enrichment cannot be adjusted with real time mapping?

Also will be installing rotated GT30R, Tial gate, Walbro pump, 70mm APEXI MAF housing, Perrin EBCS. Keeping stock BOV w/ recirc. Looking for 375 whp with poopy CA 91 octane. Car baselined at 260whp with AP stage2 catless on Mustang dyno.

I thought it would be a good approach to get the base scaler for the PE850's dialed in, and then put aftermarket turbo and MAF on and finish calibration. I am assuming the stock MAF will peg with the new turbo, hence the APEXI. Comments? Thanks
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Old 08-29-2005, 02:25 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 04STiguy
Tip-in Enrichment cannot be adjusted with real time mapping?
Correct, only as a base map.

Set the scaler, then modify it so that the A/F Trim Immed. and Learned is close to 0 throughout the RPM range, install new parts including intake, then tune the Intake calibration table so that the A/F Trim Immed. and Learned is close to 0 throughout the RPM range. Then further tune the vehicle.
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Old 08-29-2005, 03:00 PM   #7
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Any feelings/suggestions on the MAF housing?
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Old 08-29-2005, 04:44 PM   #8
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A'PEXi generally designs a very good intake system. The vehicle will tell you how you should adjust the Intake calibration to properly tune the vehicle, just look at your A/F Trim Immed. & A/F Trim Learned, if they are both positive, then simply add more grams/sec of airflow for that corresponding MAF voltage. If your dashboard is up, observe MAF Voltage, A/F Trim Immed. & A/F Trim Learned...you will see that your trims go down while you add grams/sec of air flow for that corresponding MAF voltage. If their sum is negative then remove value from the Intake Calibration table for that MAF voltage. At WOT, if your actual A/F datalog is leaner than the dictated A/F for that particular load and RPM point, then add grams/sec for the MAF voltage datalogged at that particular load and RPM point. Make sense? DO NOT try to make the A/F output of the vehicle match exactly what you have dictated in your Primary Fuel table...as soon as you fill up with different gas, the atmospheric pressure changes, temperature changes, etc. the A/F output will slightly change. You will spend too much time and money chasing your tail trying to get it perfect.
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Old 08-29-2005, 05:11 PM   #9
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Makes sense. So, it is pretty much a given that my actual AFR will not match the commanded AFR in the table? How much could it be off? Sounds like that could be dangerous in certain conditions if the target A/F is way out of sync with reality? Is a 70mm MAF housing large enough to support 375 whp without pegging?

Thanks!!
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Old 08-29-2005, 05:43 PM   #10
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Default cuz.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 04STiguy
So, it is pretty much a given that my actual AFR will not match the commanded AFR in the table?
Correct

Quote:
Originally Posted by 04STiguy
How much could it be off?
+/- .8 is normal. I have seen as much as +/- 1.0 from the factory on stock vehicles! Just verify what is coming out of the tailpipe.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 04STiguy
Sounds like that could be dangerous in certain conditions if the target A/F is way out of sync with reality? Is a 70mm MAF housing large enough to support 375 whp without pegging?
On an '05 STi (your vehicle) the stock intake system will be sufficient...close to maxed out with some room left, but sufficient.

Christian.
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Old 08-29-2005, 05:59 PM   #11
04STiguy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Christian.
Correct


On an '05 STi (your vehicle) the stock intake system will be sufficient...close to maxed out with some room left, but sufficient.

Christian.
Is there a difference in MAF between 04 and 05?

My factory MAF I.D. is 65mm. The APEXI MAF is 70mm I.D.

Thanks
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Old 08-31-2005, 11:28 AM   #12
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Ok. Got the 850's installed last night. Loaded a real time map with the scalar change only. Had a hell of a time getting the car to start (yes, fuel rails was primed). Adjustable cranking fuel would be a neat feature for the ST.
Eventually started. At full temp, fuel trims were around 12+ at idle. Through live tuning I raised the scalar to around 3400 and trims at idle are now 1-3+. Do I just save those "live" changes to a new real time map and put into the handheld and then load into the ECU?
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Old 08-31-2005, 11:35 AM   #13
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no, the RT changes you are making are automatically saved, when you change them, no need to reflash. (only need to reflash when BM changes are made) glad to see you got it up and working.
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Old 08-31-2005, 11:40 AM   #14
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[wouldn't let me edit]

once you get the tune right where you want it, save as a base map, then flash that.
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Old 08-31-2005, 11:54 AM   #15
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Thanks. So far I am pumped about the ST!! Great tool.
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Old 08-31-2005, 03:23 PM   #16
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So ... is your car running absolutely fine with the PE850s and ONLY a scalar change???? I thought I remembered Jorge (RiftsWRX) saying that it was a PITA to tune for the PE850's and now you are saying that you just changed the scalar and that was it. Does it start up easily now? Does it idle close to stock? Are your fuel trims 1-3% across the board at all RPMs and load points?

t
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Old 08-31-2005, 03:26 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 04STiguy
Ok. Got the 850's installed last night. Loaded a real time map with the scalar change only. Had a hell of a time getting the car to start (yes, fuel rails was primed). Adjustable cranking fuel would be a neat feature for the ST.
Eventually started. At full temp, fuel trims were around 12+ at idle. Through live tuning I raised the scalar to around 3400 and trims at idle are now 1-3+. Do I just save those "live" changes to a new real time map and put into the handheld and then load into the ECU?
Wait till you hit WOT... Last time I tried that with a set of 850's I fuel walled above 10 PSI.

Jorge (RiftsWRX)
www.ProjectWRX.com
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Old 08-31-2005, 04:13 PM   #18
04STiguy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WolfPlayer
So ... is your car running absolutely fine with the PE850s and ONLY a scalar change???? I thought I remembered Jorge (RiftsWRX) saying that it was a PITA to tune for the PE850's and now you are saying that you just changed the scalar and that was it. Does it start up easily now? Does it idle close to stock? Are your fuel trims 1-3% across the board at all RPMs and load points?

t
Remeber that the injectors were only installed last night. I drove the car to work this morning (30 miles) and that is it. So far so good. Only the scalar change has been made. Starts fine. Idles like stock. I will keep an eye on the trims. I am sure other adjustments will be required when I can wring it out with the wide band installed. I will post more info. when I have it.
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Old 08-31-2005, 04:18 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RiftsWRX
Wait till you hit WOT... Last time I tried that with a set of 850's I fuel walled above 10 PSI.

Jorge (RiftsWRX)
www.ProjectWRX.com
I will let you know. Please explain "....fuel walled above 10 psi".
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Old 08-31-2005, 06:00 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 04STiguy
I will let you know. Please explain "....fuel walled above 10 psi".
I dumped so much fuel into the map that I flooded the motor (a fuel wall).

Jorge (RiftsWRX)
www.ProjectWRX.com
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Old 08-31-2005, 09:28 PM   #21
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Old 08-31-2005, 11:57 PM   #22
Christian.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 04STiguy
Ok. Got the 850's installed last night. Loaded a real time map with the scalar change only. Had a hell of a time getting the car to start (yes, fuel rails was primed). Adjustable cranking fuel would be a neat feature for the ST. Eventually started. At full temp, fuel trims were around 12+ at idle. Through live tuning I raised the scalar to around 3400 and trims at idle are now 1-3+. Do I just save those "live" changes to a new real time map and put into the handheld and then load into the ECU?
Does it cold start well now? Was it only difficult to start that first time? Going to this large of an injector is not easy to tune, it can be done. I want to get your feedback, teaching people about a tool (StreetTUNER) before they use it and talking them through the process are entirely different...especially when you are not there. Just trying to help.
Christian.
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Old 09-01-2005, 05:53 PM   #23
04STiguy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Christian.
Does it cold start well now? Was it only difficult to start that first time? Going to this large of an injector is not easy to tune, it can be done. I want to get your feedback, teaching people about a tool (StreetTUNER) before they use it and talking them through the process are entirely different...especially when you are not there. Just trying to help.
Christian.
Update. Now have a few complete drive cycles. Start-up is almost like stock. Immediate idle RPM right after start-up (hot and cold) seems to a few RPM lower than it was stock and then returns to normal after a few seconds. Hot idle seems to have an ever so slight fluctation that I cannot see on the tachometer or vacuum gauge. Just can barley notice by ear (when the windows are up and I am idling in the garage). I am hypersensitive about driveability so most would not even notice or care about the minor points mentioned.

Fuel trims hover from 1-3 98% of the time. Throttle off transitions will blip a -10 to -12 for a brief nano second. Any feedback?

Thanks
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Old 09-01-2005, 09:23 PM   #24
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What about WOT as per what Jorge said?

t
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Old 09-02-2005, 12:41 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 04STiguy
Fuel trims hover from 1-3 98% of the time. Throttle off transitions will blip a -10 to -12 for a brief nano second. Any feedback?Thanks
Fuel trims sound good, the Tip-in Enrichment may need to be adjusted. Is the nano second just after you let off throttle, if so you should be O.K. This is a difficult table to tune but it can be done. Here is the information for that table =

Tip-in Enrichment -
Effects the amount of enrichment used during throttle "tip in" conditions. This is the situation when the throttle is opened quickly, an extra burst of fuel must be injected to improve throttle response. Table values are arbitrary values referenced against a delta (change) in throttle position. The higher the values, the more fuel will be injected.
Tuning Tips = These values should only need adjusting when using aftermarket (larger) fuel injectors. As the injector size increases, the amount of Tip-In enrichment required typically decreases. The goal in tuning these values will be to provide a clean throttle response when the throttle is suddenly opened from a cruise condition. In addition, you should watch your A/F Ratios to verify the A/F ratio does not suddenly increase/decrease from expected values when quickly opening the throttle. Go with what “feels” best and what matches the intended driving style and application of the vehicle and driver.

Hope this helps & please update me with your progress.

Christian.
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