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Old 03-27-2020, 02:59 AM   #1626
ajsti24
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List of applications ZF 8-speed AT. My 2019 Giulia uses ZF 8HP50, no issues so far.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZF_8HP_transmission
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Old 03-27-2020, 07:21 AM   #1627
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ajsti24 View Post
List of applications ZF 8-speed AT. My 2019 Giulia uses ZF 8HP50, no issues so far.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZF_8HP_transmission
And is arguably the best decision they made with that car, along with the steering/suspension.

Quote:
As I've come to understand, the ZF even numbered transmissions are very good, the odd numbered gearboxes are problematic. So the ZF 6 and 8 speeds are good, the 7 and 9 speeds are not. I have the 6 speed in one of my cars and it's very good despite it being 10 years old.
You have the same understanding as I.

ZF found the magic recipe in the ZF8 (50, 55 or the 70). And I'll be honest, if the STi came with a flavor of the ZF8, I;d strongly consider one. Subaru needs to up their transmission game on the sporty cars.

FYI: the last two digits of the ZF8-XX is the TQ it can withstand just add a 0 at the end of those 2 digits for it's capability. ZF8-50 = 500ft/lbs gas tq. ZF8-70 = 700ft/lbs tq gas (they have different numbers for some in diesel). ANd, they have been REALLY bulletproof. Other parts fail before these transmissions.

--kC
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Old 03-27-2020, 08:10 AM   #1628
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Regarding the FA24DIT and Subaru designing it for more torque and less HP up top.
First, the FA24DIT lives in not only the Ascent, but the Legacy sedan and the Outback. They needed a modern engine that had more power and more headroom (think 87oct) than the FA20DIT.
They didn’t design the engine for the Ascent. They designed it as their new engine to go into many vehicles. It just happens to have ****loads of torque, thank goodness.
It is the natural successor to their tired old turbo 2.5L engines and ****stain 3.6L.
It incorporates newer technologies like Direct Injection and Twin-Scroll turbos. This is some of the same stuff all the other modern competitors engines are using. Lots of torque @ low RPM is a “feature” of both of those technologies. I happen to like, er love, that feature.
STI will tune their version of the FA24DIT both with different internals, fuel delivery and ECU tune (high oct req), all of those factors will combine to retain the torque and add more usable HP up top, which a car like the STI needs. How much HP up top (what that HP curve looks like), what redline and when that HP starts to nose-dive in the curve are the big questions.
It’ll be glorious (despite a horrible factory tune that’ll need to be fixed I’m sure.)
I will remind everybody though that the FA24DIT is the first turbo Subaru I’m aware of that didn’t have a crap stock tune out of the gate. I think it has to do with all of the headroom they have built into that engine and the fact the tune is intentionally locked at 87oct and is not dynamic and cannot take advantage of anything higher than 87oct. Subaru knocked that part out of the park. They got hammered on the ‘14 Forester XT for requiring 91oct, and we know the first 2 years of that engine’s ECU tune was an absolute disaster, blowing up engines etc.
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Old 03-28-2020, 06:54 AM   #1629
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New 1.8DIT Leanburn engine 200hp and 300Nm has 41% thermal efficiency. Very high number and matches the Toyota record engine. Quite exceptional result.
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Old 03-28-2020, 08:37 PM   #1630
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Originally Posted by Goempie View Post

New 1.8DIT Leanburn engine 200hp and 300Nm has 41% thermal efficiency. Very high number and matches the Toyota record engine. Quite exceptional result.
Does this mean we'll get this engine? That would totally make me reconsider a Crosstrek or Impreza hatch if it had a 200 hp 1.8DIT.
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Old 03-29-2020, 04:34 AM   #1631
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Does this mean we'll get this engine? That would totally make me reconsider a Crosstrek or Impreza hatch if it had a 200 hp 1.8DIT.
It should. Would be stupid to forget their +700 000 units market. The whole Europe gets 33000 Subaru's a year. Would not be profitable.
Ah, the max torque is available from 1500tr/min on. If that is true, very good news. This engine will be combined with the 2.4. also for leggy and outback in my humble view. And for Europe hybrid.
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Old 03-29-2020, 09:29 AM   #1632
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It would disappoint me after buying a 2019 impreza for a daily that it got a 1.8t or 1.6t just a few years later. I love this DD but another 30hp+ would do it wonders.
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Old 03-29-2020, 12:10 PM   #1633
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Originally Posted by electricmarquis View Post
It would disappoint me after buying a 2019 impreza for a daily that it got a 1.8t or 1.6t just a few years later. I love this DD but another 30hp+ would do it wonders.
I bought the Civic hatchback sport 3 years ago over the Impreza and others because of its turbo, and cause it was way more fun to drive.

Now there's the Elantra GT N-Line, also 200 hp turbo.

Subaru needs to step up, not only with a turbo but something sporty with a hatch.
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Old 03-29-2020, 12:47 PM   #1634
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Originally Posted by VarmintCong View Post
I bought the Civic hatchback sport 3 years ago over the Impreza and others because of its turbo, and cause it was way more fun to drive.

Now there's the Elantra GT N-Line, also 200 hp turbo.

Subaru needs to step up, not only with a turbo but something sporty with a hatch.
It is not the 30hp. It is the torque surplus you need.
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Old 03-29-2020, 03:21 PM   #1635
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Originally Posted by Goempie View Post
It is not the 30hp. It is the torque surplus you need.
HP and torque are directly related. We all know that the sooner you can achiece max torque the steeper your HP curve will be, both of which are only relevant if the entire drivetrain is built for sportiness.

You might as well tell him he needs shorter gears and a 10-speed MT that runs at 4K RPM at 60MPH. That thing would get to redline real quick!

Case-in-point, back in the mid-2000s, my grandma had a Ranger with a similar 2.3L Duratech to the one in my Focus ST, but was dog slow and not fun to drive by any stretch of the imagination. Even if the Rangers of that era had 200 HP turbo engines they’d still be **** to drive.
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Old 03-29-2020, 03:59 PM   #1636
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400 horsepower or dont even bother with a new engine. The S209 makes 360 to the wheels with just a stage 1 cobb tune...so even the EJ257 in THAT car has a lot of room to make more power. All this talk about an FA with 320 horsepower but with more torque under the curve is going to pale and disappoint. The next gen STI better have 400 horsepower either with a stout FA2.4 or a combo of that engine and dual electric motors.

At the end of the day everyone is ignoring the elephant in the room here. The 2021 is going to be delayed with the global pandemic....even the C8 has stopped production. Guess what that means. You got it...the 2021 is going to keep the EJ257....the next gen is going be be delayed people....2022 is the earliest we will see anything new.
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Old 03-29-2020, 04:23 PM   #1637
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The new Impreza's chassis is superb as is. Giving it the 1.8dit would make my hatch competitive with the current WRX in the fun roads. The ONLY thing it needs is a turbo engine to make it divine for me... with a few accompanying refinements for the extra power of course.

Still dreaming...

With wider rims and tires, bigger brakes, a (special I hope) TMIC air intake/scoop, GT paint scheme and badging, and a dual center exhaust from a low restriction muffler.

Not hoping or wishing. I grow more happy with my Imp as the months pass. It wouldn't be the first year for one for sure, but that is the only (imaginary) car on my "possible reason to change" list.

Now... for those with higher aims than that, it's my guess your hopes and wishes will come true in the forthcoming WRX and STI. Lucky youse.
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Old 03-29-2020, 04:39 PM   #1638
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Originally Posted by NighthawkSTI View Post
400 horsepower or dont even bother with a new engine. The S209 makes 360 to the wheels with just a stage 1 cobb tune...so even the EJ257 in THAT car has a lot of room to make more power. All this talk about an FA with 320 horsepower but with more torque under the curve is going to pale and disappoint.
Cobb's numbers are quite optimistic.

STI Mikey's S209 dyno tuning..

Stock vs Stage 1 vs Stage 1 + VP MS109 race fuel:



298whp/289wtq stock on 93 octane
317whp/323wtq stage 1 on 93 octane
356whp/349wtq stage 1 custom tune on MS109

He then did a comparison to an E85 '18 STI. Sure the S209 gains ~50 whp up top, but is down over 100wtq at 3,500 rpm.



And just for comparison, here's the old dyno for my stage 1 FA20DIT on E50.



Now add at least ~15-20% to the above dyno factoring in the 20% bump in displacement and, at the very least, a larger "STI" turbo..

There's a good reason why people talk about area under the curve.. especially if you plan to do more with the car than drag racing & high rpm, clutch dumping launches. Not everyone drives above 5k rpm at all times.

There are also other factors to consider besides peak power ratings... width of the powerband/area under the curve, boost threshold (rpm), turbo lag (time), transient boost response, partial throttle response, fuel economy, volumetric & thermal efficiencies, knock tendency, and so on...

Last edited by WRXnick16; 03-29-2020 at 04:44 PM.
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Old 03-29-2020, 04:51 PM   #1639
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NighthawkSTI View Post
400 horsepower or dont even bother with a new engine. The S209 makes 360 to the wheels with just a stage 1 cobb tune...so even the EJ257 in THAT car has a lot of room to make more power. All this talk about an FA with 320 horsepower but with more torque under the curve is going to pale and disappoint. The next gen STI better have 400 horsepower either with a stout FA2.4 or a combo of that engine and dual electric motors.

At the end of the day everyone is ignoring the elephant in the room here. The 2021 is going to be delayed with the global pandemic....even the C8 has stopped production. Guess what that means. You got it...the 2021 is going to keep the EJ257....the next gen is going be be delayed people....2022 is the earliest we will see anything new.
Just stop. Of course MY21 is the POS EJ. We already knew that a year ago. Are you just now catching up? That had nothing to do with Beer Virus.
Are you that dense to keep saying “don’t even bother unless 400hp blah blah”?
FA24DIT could have only 325HP and it would blow away the EJ.
You’re dumb comments are tired.
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Old 03-29-2020, 05:25 PM   #1640
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Either way we will buy it.
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Old 03-29-2020, 05:33 PM   #1641
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Originally Posted by SeeeeeYa View Post
The new Impreza's chassis is superb as is. Giving it the 1.8dit would make my hatch competitive with the current WRX in the fun roads. The ONLY thing it needs is a turbo engine to make it divine for me... with a few accompanying refinements for the extra power of course.

Still dreaming...

With wider rims and tires, bigger brakes, a (special I hope) TMIC air intake/scoop, GT paint scheme and badging, and a dual center exhaust from a low restriction muffler.

Not hoping or wishing. I grow more happy with my Imp as the months pass. It wouldn't be the first year for one for sure, but that is the only (imaginary) car on my "possible reason to change" list.

Now... for those with higher aims than that, it's my guess your hopes and wishes will come true in the forthcoming WRX and STI. Lucky youse.
Impreza+1.8DIT would be very appealing! But it woukd probably come with a CVT, at least here in the old boring Europe.
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Old 03-29-2020, 05:36 PM   #1642
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Originally Posted by gathermewool View Post
HP and torque are directly related. We all know that the sooner you can achiece max torque the steeper your HP curve will be, both of which are only relevant if the entire drivetrain is built for sportiness.

You might as well tell him he needs shorter gears and a 10-speed MT that runs at 4K RPM at 60MPH. That thing would get to redline real quick!

Case-in-point, back in the mid-2000s, my grandma had a Ranger with a similar 2.3L Duratech to the one in my Focus ST, but was dog slow and not fun to drive by any stretch of the imagination. Even if the Rangers of that era had 200 HP turbo engines they’d still be **** to drive.
The BRZ has also 30hp more, but no torque. It is more torque that is fun to have in my opinion. But ok.
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Old 03-29-2020, 07:52 PM   #1643
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Originally Posted by Goempie View Post
It is not the 30hp. It is the torque surplus you need.
Well the competition all have torquey turbos - Civic has 180 lb ft, Elantra has 195 lb-ft.

I'm assuming Subaru will do the same.

And yeah, I love the flat torque curve on my Civic.
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Old 03-29-2020, 08:05 PM   #1644
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I might enjoy an FB18DIT Impreza Sport with CVT. Otherwise just make the WRX hatchback, which I still wouldn't buy.
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Old 03-29-2020, 08:26 PM   #1645
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I might enjoy an FB18DIT Impreza Sport with CVT. Otherwise just make the WRX hatchback, which I still wouldn't buy.
Nope, don't want another WRX.

And I assumed everyone knew Impreza Limiteds are all CVT... so what I said was predicated on MY car. My Impreza with a 1.8DIT would be the berries.

That hatch/wagon/5-door, as executed in the Impreza, is the secret sauce.
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Old 03-29-2020, 09:34 PM   #1646
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Originally Posted by Goempie View Post
The BRZ has also 30hp more, but no torque. It is more torque that is fun to have in my opinion. But ok.
Remind me, what does the torque curve of the BRZ (2.0L engine) look like compared to the Impreza (2.0L engine)
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Old 03-29-2020, 11:13 PM   #1647
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Originally Posted by WRXnick16 View Post
Cobb's numbers are quite optimistic.

STI Mikey's S209 dyno tuning..

Stock vs Stage 1 vs Stage 1 + VP MS109 race fuel:



298whp/289wtq stock on 93 octane
317whp/323wtq stage 1 on 93 octane
356whp/349wtq stage 1 custom tune on MS109

He then did a comparison to an E85 '18 STI. Sure the S209 gains ~50 whp up top, but is down over 100wtq at 3,500 rpm.



And just for comparison, here's the old dyno for my stage 1 FA20DIT on E50.



Now add at least ~15-20% to the above dyno factoring in the 20% bump in displacement and, at the very least, a larger "STI" turbo..

There's a good reason why people talk about area under the curve.. especially if you plan to do more with the car than drag racing & high rpm, clutch dumping launches. Not everyone drives above 5k rpm at all times.

There are also other factors to consider besides peak power ratings... width of the powerband/area under the curve, boost threshold (rpm), turbo lag (time), transient boost response, partial throttle response, fuel economy, volumetric & thermal efficiencies, knock tendency, and so on...
thanks for posting the graphs for perspective. Cobb made the 360 horsepower on 93 though...that shop you posted made a little less on 109 octane...that indicates the cobb tune is more aggressive, thus why they were experiencing the knock sensor kicking in with pinging. They would have made probably 20++ more to the wheels with race gas. Point being if you can afford the S209 you can afford high octane fuel if you get it remapped for it and be making over 400 horsepower at the crank....so an new GEN STI should be making more than that at the crank right out of the factory....otherwise its a step back from what is available from a 2004 era engine.
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Old 03-30-2020, 07:41 AM   #1648
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Originally Posted by SeeeeeYa View Post
Nope, don't want another WRX.

And I assumed everyone knew Impreza Limiteds are all CVT... so what I said was predicated on MY car. My Impreza with a 1.8DIT would be the berries.

That hatch/wagon/5-door, as executed in the Impreza, is the secret sauce.
The competition has been adding 6MT options to the top trims with the safety features, so Subaru may do the same to try to keep up. Civic has a 6MT Touring hatch now and Elantra GT NLine has a manual with the safety/tech package. Id choose either one over a CVT Impreza even with the 1.8T. A manual adds some much needed fun and involvement to this category.
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Old 03-30-2020, 08:16 AM   #1649
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Originally Posted by VarmintCong View Post
The competition has been adding 6MT options to the top trims with the safety features, so Subaru may do the same to try to keep up. Civic has a 6MT Touring hatch now and Elantra GT NLine has a manual with the safety/tech package. Id choose either one over a CVT Impreza even with the 1.8T. A manual adds some much needed fun and involvement to this category.
The "competition" didn't use to have AWD, but Subaru saw the benefits outweighed the disadvantages... and led the industry into a new future. Keeping the CVT is similar, in that it enables a greater overall benefit than the anachronistic manual trans can ever approach.

There will always be people trying to hang onto the old days and ways, refusing to let go. I enjoy talking to them at auto shows... sitting in chairs next to their shiny pasts, polishing dusty memories, happy to share their garaged dreams.

Others move on. I have... although it did take me 74 years, LOL, so a smile for you today.
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Old 03-30-2020, 08:27 AM   #1650
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Originally Posted by SeeeeeYa View Post
The "competition" didn't use to have AWD, but Subaru saw the benefits outweighed the disadvantages... and led the industry into a new future. Keeping the CVT is similar, in that it enables a greater overall benefit than the anachronistic manual trans can ever approach.

There will always be people trying to hang onto the old days and ways, refusing to let go. I enjoy talking to them at auto shows... sitting in chairs next to their shiny pasts, polishing dusty memories, happy to share their garaged dreams.

Others move on. I have... although it did take me 74 years, LOL, so a smile for you today.
You know why my Civic is so much fun to drive? Cause its 2800 lbs - that gives it a lightness, a responsiveness that combined with the manual makes it genuinely fun. My MIL's Crosstrek Limited feels very solid, substantial, safe, smooth - I get why people love it - but it's a very different feel, it's not fun or responsive at all. Add 250 lbs to the Civic and it'll lose that too.

I've driven my car 84k miles in 3 years through snow, rain etc and never once needed AWD.

For people who haven't done track days in the rain, or hate the idea of having a seperate set of snow tires and wheels - yeah, AWD is great. I wouldn't want to drive my Civic in a snowstorm on the stock all seasons.

For my wife and her mom, Subarus are perfect.

Well except that her CVT blew up at 99k miles. Thanks to Subaru for the extended warranty!
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