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Old 02-25-2020, 06:16 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by subySerb View Post
Mazda never offered a Mazdaspeed NC. However the NC was almost as fast as the NB Mazdaspeed and ND and especially the ND2 are much faster.
My bad. I meant "NB". I'm not the biggest Miata fan and fairly new to learning about the platform. Thanks for the correction.

Apparently Mazda did the Mazdaspeed Miata dirty anyway:

https://jalopnik.com/is-the-mazdaspe...col-1771908714

I prefer the mechanical simplicity of an NA motor over a boosted one. I find working for my power to be far more rewarding of an experience.
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Old 02-25-2020, 07:34 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by JustyWRC View Post
And the Miata is that much faster? Really? And if the Mazdaspeed sold so good, why don't they offer it now? Why isn't a turbo motor a standard motor for them?
My point is that adding a turbo attracted buyers. Just like now, a lot of people will shop the Fiat version with a turbo over the current Miata.

Adding power to the twins will help sales. Adding FI from the factory will attract tuners who know it will be easy to add more if desired.
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Old 02-25-2020, 07:38 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by chanomatik View Post
My bad. I meant "NB". I'm not the biggest Miata fan and fairly new to learning about the platform. Thanks for the correction.

Apparently Mazda did the Mazdaspeed Miata dirty anyway:

https://jalopnik.com/is-the-mazdaspe...col-1771908714

I prefer the mechanical simplicity of an NA motor over a boosted one. I find working for my power to be far more rewarding of an experience.
A better comparison would be the new Miata and Fiat spider which are essentially the same car but the Fiat comes with a turbo. Fiat doesnít sell as well but their dealer network is small by comparison...but most that have tested both really like the Fiat.

I like NA also if it has decent power already. I have added FI to a car that did not come that way from the factory before and wonít do it again. It was fun but so much easier if already FI
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Old 02-25-2020, 04:07 PM   #54
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Subaru has plenty of experience with FI. I doubt it is a big stretch for them to figure it out.
It's not a matter of experience with FI, it's a matter of return on investment. Figure that adding a second engine to a vehicle will add many, many months of validation and certification to a vehicle project. Not only that, you need to do validation testing to ensure the brakes can still keep up with the added power. Same with the suspension. You have to do cold cell and hot cell durability testing on the entire vehicle. Shake testing to make sure the turbo is mounted properly and wont drop off the engine. Stuff like that...

And it all costs money. Would you be interested in a turbo twin that started at $35k? $40k?
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Old 02-25-2020, 04:56 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by car_freak85 View Post
It's not a matter of experience with FI, it's a matter of return on investment. Figure that adding a second engine to a vehicle will add many, many months of validation and certification to a vehicle project. Not only that, you need to do validation testing to ensure the brakes can still keep up with the added power. Same with the suspension. You have to do cold cell and hot cell durability testing on the entire vehicle. Shake testing to make sure the turbo is mounted properly and wont drop off the engine. Stuff like that...

And it all costs money. Would you be interested in a turbo twin that started at $35k? $40k?
Welllllll, all that you just mentioned has to be done anyway on a new generation of car. They could just start out with a turbo. No other options. I do agree, however, about the cost to customer thing though. It would simply be a more expensive car. Taking it further away from an "affordable" sports car.
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Old 02-25-2020, 06:49 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by JustyWRC View Post
Welllllll, all that you just mentioned has to be done anyway on a new generation of car. They could just start out with a turbo. No other options. I do agree, however, about the cost to customer thing though. It would simply be a more expensive car. Taking it further away from an "affordable" sports car.
Considering BRZ sales...

just maybe that would be a good thing. As in couldn't hurt, could it? I can't imagine the current BRZ buyers are buying them just because they're cheap... seems to me they buy them because they're great at what they are and do. How many current buyers wish they had more power, turbo power, on top of what it is and does now.

My guess is it would be more in the running for more people, people quite willing to pay the extra it would cost.
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Old 02-25-2020, 07:07 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by car_freak85 View Post
It's not a matter of experience with FI, it's a matter of return on investment. Figure that adding a second engine to a vehicle will add many, many months of validation and certification to a vehicle project. Not only that, you need to do validation testing to ensure the brakes can still keep up with the added power. Same with the suspension. You have to do cold cell and hot cell durability testing on the entire vehicle. Shake testing to make sure the turbo is mounted properly and wont drop off the engine. Stuff like that...

And it all costs money. Would you be interested in a turbo twin that started at $35k? $40k?
3 years ago I was looking for a 2 door sports car. I didnít even look at the twins because of the power. At it weight it doesnít need huge numbers to be fun but it needs more than what it has especially with the horrible torque dip down low.

A low $30k model would sell well imho with FI and 260s from the factory at around its current wt...especially with the tuning possibilities it would have. In a couple years, my oldest wants my Evo and when she starts driving I wonít need a 4 door. If the new generation brz has 260 with a turbo and is around 2900 lbs I will give it a serious look.
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Old 02-25-2020, 09:36 PM   #58
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I think an FA24 D4-S would be fine. It would address people's desire for extra power while keeping the car light, affordable and simple.
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Old 02-25-2020, 09:55 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by car_freak85 View Post
It's not a matter of experience with FI, it's a matter of return on investment. Figure that adding a second engine to a vehicle will add many, many months of validation and certification to a vehicle project. Not only that, you need to do validation testing to ensure the brakes can still keep up with the added power. Same with the suspension. You have to do cold cell and hot cell durability testing on the entire vehicle. Shake testing to make sure the turbo is mounted properly and wont drop off the engine. Stuff like that...

And it all costs money. Would you be interested in a turbo twin that started at $35k? $40k?
Why not? 35-40k, thatís what, half of what a damn Cayman costs? Say itís 37.5k, with the 2.0 FA DIT, thatís a good deal, even at that price.
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Old 02-25-2020, 10:58 PM   #60
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I think an FA24 D4-S would be fine. It would address people's desire for extra power while keeping the car light, affordable and simple.
No. It would suck some more. Needs turbo bad.
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Old 02-26-2020, 07:47 AM   #61
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240hp 2.4 would be kinda S2000-like. Does S2000 need a turbo? Nobody dare say yes.
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Old 02-26-2020, 08:47 AM   #62
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3 years ago I was looking for a 2 door sports car. I didn’t even look at the twins because of the power. At it weight it doesn’t need huge numbers to be fun but it needs more than what it has especially with the horrible torque dip down low.

A low $30k model would sell well imho with FI and 260s from the factory at around its current wt...especially with the tuning possibilities it would have. In a couple years, my oldest wants my Evo and when she starts driving I won’t need a 4 door. If the new generation brz has 260 with a turbo and is around 2900 lbs I will give it a serious look.
(not quite) 2 years ago I was looking for a 2 door sports car. the only one that ticked the boxes for me, and thus the only one I looked at was the BRZ.

(not quite) 2 years later, I am still very pleased with my decision.

there is very little that the next one could offer that would sway me into the dealership to trade in what I have.
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Old 02-26-2020, 08:56 AM   #63
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240hp 2.4 would be kinda S2000-like. Does S2000 need a turbo? Nobody dare say yes.
You're talking about a 20 year old car though.
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Old 02-26-2020, 09:13 AM   #64
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You're talking about a 20 year old car though.
That people seem to want more now than they did then, because they're still too damn expensive and I guess never getting cheaper.
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Old 02-26-2020, 09:17 AM   #65
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That people seem to want more now than they did then, because they're still too damn expensive and I guess never getting cheaper.
People want S2k's because they are a driver focused car without all the obligatory tech garbage modern cars are saddled with, not because of the power levels compared to modern cars.
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Old 02-26-2020, 09:41 AM   #66
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people want Honda's because they have a massive aftermarket supply of performance parts.

People want S2000's because they are sporty. They sound good with an exhaust.

People want S2000's for the same objective reasons that people want Miata's.

In short people want Honda's.
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Old 02-26-2020, 09:52 AM   #67
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People want S2k's because they are a driver focused car without all the obligatory tech garbage modern cars are saddled with, not because of the power levels compared to modern cars.
Right, which is supposed to be the 86's thing too.
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Old 02-26-2020, 10:02 AM   #68
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People want S2k's because they are a driver focused car without all the obligatory tech garbage modern cars are saddled with, not because of the power levels compared to modern cars.
Ahh... those were the days...

Keep wishing.

There will be no return to the above. Instead, the proliferation of more isolation of the driver. Power increases only to (barely) make up for increasing weight. The current trend will remain. No one's listening. Auto pilot is on. It's out of our hands.

The drive now is for silent cars. Cars that not only are smarter and better than their drivers, screw around and they'll rat on you to The Man. Soon that data will be streamed, live, integrated into a traffic control system where the human is no longer even close to in charge.

Sit back and relax. Enjoy your ride.
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Old 02-26-2020, 10:19 AM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sid03SVT View Post
People want S2k's because they are a driver focused car without all the obligatory tech garbage modern cars are saddled with, not because of the power levels compared to modern cars.
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Originally Posted by fredzy View Post
Right, which is supposed to be the 86's thing too.
I mean, if this thread is any evidence, people want a faster BRZ too while still being focused.

Once rolling, an S2k was a pretty quick car...running right with an STI and faster than a WRX. And it was a blast to ring out. Total screamer.

The BRZ's engine just isn't inspiring either in feel or ultimate power. It's not getting any revvier, so just give us some more power.

I think the difference is Subaru has the engine sitting there which can be dropped in easily. At least with the Miata they'd have to rotate the MS3s engine to a longitudinal setup

They can't make money off of a $35k BRZ with a 270 bhp unit picked from the WRX? How is it not worth it for them to even try it?
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Old 02-26-2020, 10:21 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by NighthawkSTI View Post

People want S2000's for the same objective reasons that people want Miata's.
See, I don't think that's really true. The S2000 had much broader performance appeal.
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Old 02-26-2020, 10:46 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by Sid03SVT View Post
People want S2k's because they are a driver focused car without all the obligatory tech garbage modern cars are saddled with, not because of the power levels compared to modern cars.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fredzy View Post
Right, which is supposed to be the 86's thing too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeeeeeYa View Post
Ahh... those were the days...

Keep wishing.

There will be no return to the above. Instead, the proliferation of more isolation of the driver. Power increases only to (barely) make up for increasing weight. The current trend will remain. No one's listening. Auto pilot is on. It's out of our hands.

The drive now is for silent cars. Cars that not only are smarter and better than their drivers, screw around and they'll rat on you to The Man. Soon that data will be streamed, live, integrated into a traffic control system where the human is no longer even close to in charge.

Sit back and relax. Enjoy your ride.
I was talking about people wanting a 20 year old S2k today, I'd take one over a BRZ, and maybe over the ND2 miata, but I haven't driven an ND2 I hear they are great though. I might be looking at the S2k through rose colored glasses though as I haven't driven one in 5-ish years.

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Originally Posted by SoapBox View Post
I mean, if this thread is any evidence, people want a faster BRZ too while still being focused.

Once rolling, an S2k was a pretty quick car...running right with an STI and faster than a WRX. And it was a blast to ring out. Total screamer.

The BRZ's engine just isn't inspiring either in feel or ultimate power. It's not getting any revvier, so just give us some more power.

I think the difference is Subaru has the engine sitting there which can be dropped in easily. At least with the Miata they'd have to rotate the MS3s engine to a longitudinal setup
agreed - I don't like the mill in the BRZ; the S2k's wanted you to wind it out and rewarded you for doing so, the BRZ's feels as if it's almost begrudgingly getting up there. Subaru isn't going to offer a rev happy higher output NA motor with a lighter rotating assembly, but they could drop in a turbo mill; more power is better than no improvement.

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Originally Posted by SoapBox View Post
See, I don't think that's really true. The S2000 had much broader performance appeal.
S2k was basically a more focused, higher tier Miata; it improved on every aspect of the Miata; think of it similarly to going from a Mustang GT to a GT350.

Before the S2k, it was MR-2 vs. miata - the sw20 w/3S-GTE turbo was a higher tier and more desirable.

Back to modern cars, no; I don't think we're going to get something as focused as the S2k was. Too many requirements (occupant & pedestrian safety, fuel economy, emissions, etc.), not to mention the limited market and how entrenched the Miata and it's fan base are, and the lack of mills from manufacturers that would fit that application; I think the ND2 Miata is about as close as we are going to get; I'm still surprised Mazda did it. Maybe the ND3 or NE Miata (assuming it's not electric) will continue the trend of lightweight & driver focused, sharing the platform with an RX model would help, but the future of ICE is shaky; trucks, large SUVs and performance cars will be the last holdouts.
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Old 02-26-2020, 11:14 AM   #72
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Ahh I miss my S2000.

Unfortunately, the FA24 won't see the F20C's 9k rpm or even the F22C's 8.2k rpm redline.. or emit the same auditory pleasure as Honda's naturally aspirated VTEC engines..

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoapBox View Post
an S2k was a pretty quick car... And it was a blast to ring out. Total screamer.

The BRZ's engine just isn't inspiring either in feel or ultimate power. It's not getting any revvier, so just give us some more power.

They can't make money off of a $35k BRZ with a 270 bhp unit picked from the WRX? How is it not worth it for them to even try it?

The S2000 had much broader performance appeal.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sid03SVT View Post
People want S2k's because they are a driver focused car without all the obligatory tech garbage modern cars are saddled with, not because of the power levels compared to modern cars.

the S2k's wanted you to wind it out and rewarded you for doing so, the BRZ's feels as if it's almost begrudgingly getting up there. Subaru isn't going to offer a rev happy higher output NA motor with a lighter rotating assembly, but they could drop in a turbo mill; more power is better than no improvement.

S2k was basically a more focused, higher tier Miata; it improved on every aspect of the Miata; think of it similarly to going from a Mustang GT to a GT350.

I think the ND2 Miata is about as close as we are going to get; I'm still surprised Mazda did it.
Agreed. Having owned an S2000 and spent a lot of time driving a BRZ.. the BRZ & S2000 provide completely different driving experiences. The BRZ is a great driver's car by today's standards.. but IMO, it's no where near the S2000. Don't get me wrong, the twins have a great chassis. I think a bit more power would help.. whether that be more displacement & revs (and eliminating the torque dip) or in the form of turbocharging. The WRX has already proved that the FA20DIT is a potent platform.

I considered buying a BRZ, but having previously owned an S2000 & FD RX-7.. the BRZ just seemed like too far of a step back in terms of power, performance and overall character. Instead I went with the WRX (now the STI). It would have been a different story had the BRZ been turbocharged or even had a bit more oomph and character from the engine.

I'd really like to spend some time in the ND2 Miata with the power bump & higher redline to see how it compares to the two.

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Originally Posted by chanomatik View Post
I think an FA24 D4-S would be fine. It would address people's desire for extra power while keeping the car light, affordable and simple.
This is most likely what we'll see.

Unfortunately, if the source I quoted earlier is correct.. I don't think people's desire for extra power will be satisfied with 217 hp & 177 lb-ft. But who knows.. it should "feel" faster thanks to the extra torque. I think it'll just depend on the powerband (torque curve, redline, etc.). I'd love to see them adopt Mazda's philosophy of "adding lightness" with some more aluminum, carbon fiber, etc. to keep the curb weight down.
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Old 02-26-2020, 11:19 AM   #73
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People also still want an S2000 now because they couldn't afford it new.

Comparing how much a base Miata cost today vs a base Miata cost in 2009, the percent increase in price carried over to a S2000 to today, we would be sitting in the low $40k for a modern day S2000.

People don't want to put down $30k for a new BRZ/86 or Miata today. I can't imagine people putting $40k+ for a modern day S2000. The closest car we have that fits a similar style, is the 4 cylinder Supra. The interwebs is all saying that the predicted $40k is too much.
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Old 02-26-2020, 11:53 AM   #74
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People want S2k's because they are a driver focused car without all the obligatory tech garbage modern cars are saddled with, not because of the power levels compared to modern cars.
Owned one, still a member over there too. The joke on the s2000 forum, is a minivan would pull on it. That's pathetic. It was great for its' time, them days are long over. Let's not give Subaru any ideas of matching a got damn 20 year old car.

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People don't want to put down $30k for a new BRZ/86 or Miata today.
Then they can go panhandle in the streets for it. It needs a turbo, and the price needs to go up so everyone can get it.
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Old 02-26-2020, 12:19 PM   #75
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Definitely not interested in a turbo BRZ.
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