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Old 10-24-2001, 04:32 PM   #26
DammitBevis
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Default Called SOA

SOA logged the problem, but said that I should take it to the dealer. I called the dealer and they said I should bring it in. I agree, but the dealer is 2hrs away. I might be able to get roadside assist to haul it in for me, but I'd still have to go and pick it up. That sucks.... I'm sure they won't find anything wrong with it anyway. Could some of you that live closer to your dealership take yours in too? I'll see if I can schedule an appointment anyway.
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Old 10-24-2001, 05:25 PM   #27
WindyWRX
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Okay, I'm in...happened to me this weekend for the first time. Almost went into an X5 at a stop light. That wouldn't have been pretty. Scared the S*@* out of me. I guess nobody knows until they bring it in, but I have a feeling that dealerships are going to say:

a) "We drove your car for hours and had a whole lotta fun, but never experienced the problem you discussed...we think you're nuts"
or
b) Yeh, it seems like what you are saying MAY be true, but we don't think there is anything that can be done. Drive safely.

Whaddayathink?
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Old 10-24-2001, 07:39 PM   #28
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Or they could say.... "We couldn't duplicate your problem, but we figure any problem you're having is probably due to you driving the car too hard, and we consider that abuse so we're not going to cover this repair even if we find something wrong."

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Old 10-25-2001, 12:14 AM   #29
kurichan
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Default Re: SOA is Looking

Quote:
Originally posted by Zoomer
First, to all who believe that SOA is trying to "sweep this under the carpet". If you stop and think for a moment, I'm sure you will realize that the liability (if nothing else) would preclude them from taking a position like that.
Your position is naive. After talking with SOA about other issues and listening to their well rehearsed corporate excuses, I wouldn't put ANYTHING beyond them.
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Old 10-25-2001, 10:30 AM   #30
DammitBevis
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When I talked to the SOA rep, she requested that I call SOA when the appointment is made for the inspection. She told me that they hoped to find something fixable, but they wanted to know if no problem was found so that they could investigate further.
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Old 10-25-2001, 12:32 PM   #31
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Okay, I'm volunteering to be the point man. If you have experienced this problem please email me at "[email protected]" with the following info:

1. You name and email address
2. your VIN #
3. date of mfg. (from the sticker inside your door)
4. weather conditions at time of problem
5. road conditions at the time

I have a contact at SOA that wants to help but they need info.
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Old 10-25-2001, 01:18 PM   #32
Opie
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Default

Here's a little more info on the problem:

Some cars (Including Impreza's, Forester's & Legacy's) could have a bad master cylinder. My RS did what the first post describe's at around 4,000 miles. It was IMMEADIATELY diagnoised by the dealer and SOA as a defective master cylinder and was replaced under warranty. No problems since, brakes work great during day-to-day driving, autocrossing and rallycrossing.

Unfortunately there are other things that can cause similar symptoms and I don't think that everyone's master cylinder is bad. Things like:
- Unfamiliarity with the ABS system
- Those crappy RE92's
- Loose or rough surface
just to name a few.

It sounds to me like SOA is having trouble determining which problems are legitiment brake system failures, and which are caused by some other reason.

I doubt that SOA is trying to "sweep this under the carpet", and no I am not naive...I just have a great dealer that works withSOA and me to get problems solved. Sadly, not every Subaru dealer can make that claim. Matter of fact, when I have had to call SOA they treated me fairly and did not give me any "excuse" that was "well rehearsed". Instead they either helped me solve my problem, or pointed me in the proper direction to get the problem solved.

Hope this helps some of you out.
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Old 10-26-2001, 02:01 AM   #33
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OK - I've probably driven 10 (or more) WRXs under all kinds of conditions and have not experienced this.

My brand new WRX does not have this problem (I've tried it), neither did my old WRX.

Your assertion "I believe this is a common problem in all 2002 WRXs." is therefore false, unless you are describing a scenario I have not tested.

I don't doubt YOU (and others) either have a real problem or perceived problem, and definitely should get it checked out by the dealer.

Glenn
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Old 10-26-2001, 11:04 AM   #34
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Ok, I just wanted to state something. First of all I personally believe that SOA isn't fully aware of the problem. They've got a few reports of a few drivers complaining about ABS problems. They've probably got a few complaints about aliens living in gloveboxes too. I'm a tech manager for a small computer company, and I admit that when I hear something really unusual/unlikely I try and chalk it up to user inexperience. Sometimes I'm wrong though. I've also seen some really rare software bugs, that only happen when you hold your mouth right under a full moon and you're wearing a plaid shirt. I've experienced this braking problem, and I can't believe that it was designed to work in this manner. And I've tried and tried to duplicate it, but I can't. Only happens when I'm not expecting it, and only twice in 10K miles. I'm familiar with ABS systems, their motors, valves, sensors, pumps, control systems, etc.... Admittedly the setup on the subaru is more advanced than any I've worked with before. I'm used to 2 to 3 channel systems that work from wheel slip alone. I understand that the Subaru ABS also uses accelerometers and some complex software to determine the optimum manner to brake. All ABS systems made in the past 5-6 years have not only failsafes that switch the system to standard brakes if the accumulator or pump pressures are low, but don't hesitate to light a big red indicator on the dash telling you that someting isn't right. I'm confident that it's a software problem or a sensor glitch. I'm going to take the WRX in for inspection as soon as I possibly can, but I KNOW that they are not going to check what I think needs to be checked. They will pull codes, check connections, fluid levels, pressures, and take it for a test drive. Somehow we'll have to make enough noise that a Subaru Engineer is going to take apart the ABS control system, and scrutinize every line of code, and every ABS circuit for possible tolerances or conditions that weren't anticipated. Even if I had crappy tires, bad driving habits, or even got under the car and started cutting wires, that's no reason for the ABS to go berserk. The electronics/controls are SUPPOSED to be failsafe and switch me to regular brakes when something goes wrong. I don't want to blame anybody, I don't want to sue anybody, and I'm not claiming to be the god of all things ABS. I'm just sharing my knowledge and experience in the hopes that we can be productive in finding a solution. And I KNOW, without a doubt, that there IS a problem with MY WRX. Thanks for reading my long rant.
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Old 10-26-2001, 06:47 PM   #35
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Wow. Quite the thread. It seems that some people must have different cars. I know that people tire of my saying this, but I have tried braking my WRX in every situation that I can think of:

On gravel, on steel drawbridges that we have in Chicago, rumble strips, you name it. Hell, I can barely get my ABS to activate! Then again, when bumps make the ABS activate, I release pedal pressure then re-apply the brakes, just like they taught me in Skippy school. No problem.

But I have never, ever experienced what many are calling a secret Subaru plot. But realistically, after what happened to Ford with the Explorer, do any of you honestly think that ANY car manufacturer would voluntarily or knowingly issue a car, especially a performance car like the WRX, with substandard brakes, or a system that can make the pedal go to the floor over precisely the kind of stuff that the WRX is supposed to shine on?

I think not.

Probably the most important thing is that any of you experiencing this problem, should complain just as vociferously to your dealer as you do to this board. If you don't get satisfaction from the dealer, find the area SOA rep. Every region has one. Subaru cares about the WRX like they have no other car since the first generation Outback.

Here's when I can get my ABS to go off...in the rain, if I apply the brakes firmly and abruptly. It's also not the kind of braking that I do, and is the kind of braking that means I've probably overdriven the car (not that I'm implying that anyone here did such a thing...this is my experience alone).

Those who know me, know that I have DMS Golds on my car, with 17" P1s and Dunlop 9000s. But even with the stock suspension, I never noticed this problem. Some cars are different, apparently. But to blame Subaru for this, and to accuse them of sweeping it under the carpet defies logic. The Brit boys drive the piss out of their cars and to my knowledge, they haven't been experiencing similar problems, unless I just missed it on Scoobynet.

Something is wrong, if this stuff is going on. Go to the same spot, and duplicate the conditions. Since this is happening when it's dry out to most of you, this should be an easy thing to do. If it's a problem with the system, it should be duplicatable. But every ABS car that I have ever driven, when the wheels are unweighted, feels like the brakes have stopped working. Getting off of, then right back on the whoa pedal brings things back to normalcy.

There are a couple of people who have taken their cars in, and are having the dealer check out the systems. I'll be very curious to see what happens.

Kevin
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Old 10-26-2001, 08:14 PM   #36
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Smile

OK - Just have to add my two cents worth. :monkey:

I concur with DammitBeevis that it could be a software error deep in the digital bowels of the ABS system. Who knows how many factors have to be just right before it misbehaves. I think the critical issue is whether or not it can be reproduced. Being in the software industry, I know how hard these things are to track down unless they can be reproduced. As long as this problem cannot be shown to exist SOA will not go to the expense of rectifying it. Also, the software may be another vendors code which complicates it even more. I am just speculating here - just another take on the problem.

If anyone can reproduce this problem then document it as best you can and submit it to the regional service manager or higher. Only when it can be proven that there is a problem, will they spend resources on the solution.

That probably wasn't worth two cents.
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Old 10-26-2001, 09:45 PM   #37
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I won't make it tomorrow, but I'm going to try duplicating the conditions in the last place it ocurred. I think I can probably whack the same bump at same speed under braking as I did before. I'll let you know what I find out.
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Old 10-27-2001, 08:18 PM   #38
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Sounds like Zoomer knows what he is talking about. If they get information, they can maybe sort out what is going on.

The problem is when there are other "issues" getting mixed in. i.e. Brakes have grooves so they are all defective and it is a vast conspiracy.

Also, if they start throwing parts at the car for something that they "think" may cause it, they may mask the problem, but not fix it. If they don't fix it, it could happen again.

So, go with Zoomer. Get it to a dealer and have them check out the obvious stuff. Call SOA and let them know what you experienced. Don't call them if you didn't experience it just to say that you read it on the internet.

If the dealer doesn't take you seriously - get SOA on them.

Just my $.02. The more info. we provide the better things will be towards a fix. P. S. - I can't get my Rex to do it - and I really tried.

Spider
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Old 11-01-2001, 08:14 AM   #39
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i dont think this is only a problem on 'some' WRX's or Impreza's.
i have put 7500 miles on my rex and have only experienced it twice. the condition have to be right. and my wife's New Beetle does NOT do this.

when rolling at only 25 or 30 mph, you should be able to stop in like what, 30 feet? if you are applying the brakes HARD, and whack a bump you WILL know what im talking about.

TRY THIS: find some railroad tracks... make sure nobody is behind you and there is no train coming ..... apply your brakes hard RIGHT BEFORE you hit them.... when you hit that first track, your brakes will go right to the floor and you will continue to roll like your arent even applying your brakes!!! its scary! they will catch in a couple seconds, but by that time you could have already hit something. i can repeat this at will. AND have done it in a friends WRX!

Bob
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Old 11-01-2001, 11:03 AM   #40
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Hey Westy, this was one of the things that I tried during my attempts to replicate the brake problem, and my car just stopped. The ABS did activate, but without any drama. Just a nice, smooth stop. I was quite impressed.

I forget what else I did, but if you search for a thread called "GTGUY's WRX brake test" or something like that in this forum, you can see what I did, and what happened.

Kevin
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Old 11-01-2001, 08:28 PM   #41
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Default I tried it.

I tried it too Westy and the ABS operated as expected. I used two different sets of tracks on my test, one set was fairly smooth and the other was rough. Neither produced the effect you described. I will try one more time though because the ABS didn't activate until I hit the tracks. I will try to activated it before I get to the tracks to see if this makes any difference. I don't see why it should but in the name of science I will be thorough. And I have one more set of tracks to try.
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Old 11-01-2001, 09:00 PM   #42
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i own a 2000 2.5rs and have experienced the same problems when going over rumble strips or bumpy road areas while braking.
I've been a Tech for 14 years and have never experienced this in other makes or models. I thought it may have just been my scooby but apparently it is a problem across the board. I'm going to research this and if I find anything I'll be sure to post it.


jediknight.
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Old 11-02-2001, 01:40 PM   #43
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Default Re: SOA is Looking

Quote:
Originally posted by Zoomer
First, to all who believe that SOA is trying to "sweep this under the carpet". If you stop and think for a moment, I'm sure you will realize that the liability (if nothing else) would preclude them from taking a position like that.

uh, have you never seen Fight Club? remember "The Formula" ? This really is the way they operate. It's not like SOA is some caring big brother... they are concerned about exactly one thing: the bottom line. This is how it is with ALL corporations and if they think they can get away with it without losing face, they will try.

whether or not they think they can get away with it depends on how much this problem is reported to people OTHER than subaru.
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Old 11-02-2001, 02:26 PM   #44
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I disagree. Subaru isn't like Ford, where a multi-million dollar lawsuit or three won't kill them. There is absolutely no way that the company would knowingly put cars with a potentially fatal problem out there. They sold about 190,000 cars last year. Hell, Toyota sold more Camrys than that! Were publicity to get out about a brake problem, the company's North American presence would be in serious jeopardy. Look at how long it took Audi to recover from the "unintentional acceleration" rumors.

People at Subaru drive the cars, dealers drive the cars, their loved ones drive the cars. Who among us, even the most heartless, would voluntarily put their friends or family in harm's way by putting something that is knowingly defective out there?

Has anyone been able to duplicate the problem? I know that a few guys were going to try.

Kevin
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Old 11-02-2001, 04:49 PM   #45
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Default Thread with FIXES

Here is a thread posted in general that has two instances where the dealer was able to fix the issue, two different items, one from toby in the first post, second from StormRacing about 12 posts down (& mentioned in first post)

1. ABS module replaced
2. sensor replaced

http://www.i-club.com/forums/showthr...hreadid=108976

PLEASE take any bad braking cars to the dealer as soon as possible!
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Old 11-02-2001, 05:01 PM   #46
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Quote:
Who among us, even the most heartless, would voluntarily put their friends or family in harm's way by putting something that is knowingly defective out there?
The same people that work for tobacco companies?

Or those who put (and kept) the fuel tanks in GM trucks outside the frame rails?
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Old 11-02-2001, 07:20 PM   #47
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Sorry, but without hijacking the thread, tobacco can't be compared to allegedly defective brakes on a car. If someone chooses to smoke, party on. But brakes, especially on a performance car, are another matter. They are a critical component.

As far as the GM fuel tank "test" in which cars on the telly blowed up real good...please.

I refer to my previous statement.

Kevin
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Old 11-08-2001, 01:23 PM   #48
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Default Re: Thread with FIXES

Slide, thanks for the info, but I don't think this is a solution to the exact problem we are having here. It seems the problem that was solved in your linked thread was an "easier" one to fix... i.e. the problem was obviously apparent and an isolatable component was at fault.
With our problem, the main problem is that it's impossible for the usual routine testing to find the problem.

I'm going to email Zoomer with my info and hope that he's making progress. (Zoomer, please keep us posted as what to do and what's going on) But, I'm afraid it might depend on one of us being able to reliably replicate the situation, then go to a dealer and ask the manager or better yet the owner to take a test drive and make him wet his nice suit pants. then something might get done.

As I illuded to before, this is not a problem, unfortunately, where you can drop your car off for service and say "oh, by the way the ABS screws up when I hit bumps" and they can diagnose it and fix it...it just isn't that type of problem...which is a shame since it is such a life threatening issue. Once again, today, I almost rear ended someone when I was doing 25 mph and he cut in front of me on a bumpy road. I had to head for the shoulder and almost hit a curb to avoid ramming him. This is my 5'th or 6'th time it's happened in 2800 miles.

Jeff C.
--who now drives with one hand on the e-brake

Quote:
Originally posted by SlideWRX
Here is a thread posted in general that has two instances where the dealer was able to fix the issue, two different items, one from toby in the first post, second from StormRacing about 12 posts down (& mentioned in first post)

1. ABS module replaced
2. sensor replaced

http://www.i-club.com/forums/showthr...hreadid=108976

PLEASE take any bad braking cars to the dealer as soon as possible!
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Old 11-08-2001, 02:07 PM   #49
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Clearly nobody here can fix it, so you should take it to the dealer and hope it happens when they drive it. The sooner the better, before you or someone else gets hurt. If you did rear end somebody, think how hard it would be to prove there is a defect with the ABS.
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Old 11-08-2001, 07:57 PM   #50
DammitBevis
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Just an FYI
I've gone through the same intersection, hitting the same bump at the same speed with the same amount of braking quite a few times (don't have an exact count, 15 or so maybe). And I cannot duplicate the problem. In fact, I can't even get the ABS to engage under the similar conditions. I've got to practically stand on it to even get the ABS working in this spot. And then I just get a chirp as the tire bounces through the bump/hole. Maybe I hit a stone or something that one time. I dunno. Anyway, just thought I'd let you guys know. Still trying to find time to take it to the dealership.
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