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Old 06-15-2022, 10:41 AM   #26
JustyWRC
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Originally Posted by Snow Drift View Post
We will see how innovative they are over the next year or two. Ascent got a mild refresh, so maybe they will keep going as if nothing happened.

Mild? Shoot. This is the most extensive BMC they've ever done.


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It should be a short wheel base Solterra, but I'm sure they will soldier on with the FB. CB is probably too expensive to federalize.
Don't think they'd abandon the SGP just yet.
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Old 06-15-2022, 01:20 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by JustyWRC View Post
Mild? Shoot. This is the most extensive BMC they've ever done.

Don't think they'd abandon the SGP just yet.
Headlights/tail lights and bumper is mild to me. At least the '05 WRX got a new interior also.

Solterra is on e-SGP, right? They should be rolling out e-SGP variants of all SUVs. Forget the PHEV, do it right.
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Old 06-15-2022, 01:44 PM   #28
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Headlights/tail lights and bumper is mild to me. At least the '05 WRX got a new interior also.

Solterra is on e-SGP, right? They should be rolling out e-SGP variants of all SUVs. Forget the PHEV, do it right.
BZ4X starts at 42k vs. the Rav4 hybrid that starts at 29.6k - that's 12.4k bump, or 42% price increase. I Used Toyota because the BZ4X is a more direct replacement to the Rav4 than the Solterra (starting at 45k) to the ICE Forester (starts at 25k).

Essentially, if Subaru (or Toyota for that matter) went full EV and dumped/ignored hybrid there is a huge price jump that most people won't be willing to make just for brand loyalty, which is going away, on a generational level.

Subaru needs all the help with efficiency they can get, yeah EV's are significantly better than ICE, but if nobody buys them, it doesn't help their CAFE ratings.
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Old 06-15-2022, 03:03 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Sid03SVT View Post
BZ4X starts at 42k vs. the Rav4 hybrid that starts at 29.6k - that's 12.4k bump, or 42% price increase. I Used Toyota because the BZ4X is a more direct replacement to the Rav4 than the Solterra (starting at 45k) to the ICE Forester (starts at 25k).

Essentially, if Subaru (or Toyota for that matter) went full EV and dumped/ignored hybrid there is a huge price jump that most people won't be willing to make just for brand loyalty, which is going away, on a generational level.

Subaru needs all the help with efficiency they can get, yeah EV's are significantly better than ICE, but if nobody buys them, it doesn't help their CAFE ratings.
Rav4 Prime PHEV = $40,300
bZ4X BEV = $42,000

Subaru doesn't offer a mild hybrid Crosstrek for cheap, it's PHEV or gas.

Crosstrek PHEV = $36,345 (minus 4,502 fed) = $31,843
Solterra BEV = $44,995 (minus $7,500 fed) = $37,495

Crosstrek PHEV isn't that much cheaper. The Solterra is closely priced, slightly larger, uses zero gas, has basically zero maintenance, and is probably a better driving car (I have not tried it, but I owned the PHEV and it wasn't great).
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Old 06-15-2022, 07:31 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Snow Drift View Post
Headlights/tail lights and bumper is mild to me. At least the '05 WRX got a new interior also.

Solterra is on e-SGP, right? They should be rolling out e-SGP variants of all SUVs. Forget the PHEV, do it right.
Headlights.....more like entire front end. Tail lights have more difference than most changes they've done in the past. Most since the 2008 Tribeca. There's just as much interior change on this as the '05 Impreza/WRX/STi. And then all the tech updates makes this NOT a mild upgrade. The only one arguably more is the 2008 Tribeca.

e-SGP and SGP are not the same. Very different.
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Old 06-15-2022, 11:12 PM   #31
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Headlights.....more like entire front end. Tail lights have more difference than most changes they've done in the past. Most since the 2008 Tribeca. There's just as much interior change on this as the '05 Impreza/WRX/STi. And then all the tech updates makes this NOT a mild upgrade. The only one arguably more is the 2008 Tribeca.

e-SGP and SGP are not the same. Very different.
2017 Forester was a pretty big refresh as well.
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Old 06-16-2022, 07:51 AM   #32
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Rav4 Prime PHEV = $40,300
bZ4X BEV = $42,000

Subaru doesn't offer a mild hybrid Crosstrek for cheap, it's PHEV or gas.

Crosstrek PHEV = $36,345 (minus 4,502 fed) = $31,843
Solterra BEV = $44,995 (minus $7,500 fed) = $37,495

Crosstrek PHEV isn't that much cheaper. The Solterra is closely priced, slightly larger, uses zero gas, has basically zero maintenance, and is probably a better driving car (I have not tried it, but I owned the PHEV and it wasn't great).
That BZ4X to Rav4 Prime is not a "like to like" comparison; the base model BZ4X is FWD, the base Rav4 Hybrid is FWD, they are both trimmed similarly (interior, tech etc.) hence comparing them. They are tiered this way deliberately: Rav4Hybrid->Rav4 PHEV ->BZ4X EV. The AWD version of the BZ4x isn't that much more expensive, I think it's a couple grand, so for my money, yeah I'm going EV over PHEV (at least in this particular case).

I understand your point about the Crosstrek being offered only in PHEV, but again, not the same size class vehicle as the BZ4X/Solterra, the Forester is the closer comparison to the BZ4X/Solterra.

Subaru has massive holes in their lineup on the hybrid & electric front.

With current fed rebates, yes it makes sense to go Solterra over PHEV Crosstek, but that will only last so long, hence comparing MSRP. Those credits will eventually go away and the gap in pricing, and massive hole in the lineup will reappear.
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Old 06-16-2022, 09:22 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by JustyWRC View Post
Headlights.....more like entire front end. Tail lights have more difference than most changes they've done in the past. Most since the 2008 Tribeca. There's just as much interior change on this as the '05 Impreza/WRX/STi. And then all the tech updates makes this NOT a mild upgrade. The only one arguably more is the 2008 Tribeca.

e-SGP and SGP are not the same. Very different.
I included Bumper, so that's the front end. Help me out, what is different on the interior besides the 11" screen being standard on all trims? The 2005 WRX had the all-new SAAB 9-2x interior, which was completely different from the 2004.

e-SGP is just SGP w/ a pack. If it's more than that, is it really SGP? Or is it a Toyota chassis?

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Originally Posted by Sid03SVT View Post
That BZ4X to Rav4 Prime is not a "like to like" comparison; the base model BZ4X is FWD, the base Rav4 Hybrid is FWD, they are both trimmed similarly (interior, tech etc.) hence comparing them. They are tiered this way deliberately: Rav4Hybrid->Rav4 PHEV ->BZ4X EV. The AWD version of the BZ4x isn't that much more expensive, I think it's a couple grand, so for my money, yeah I'm going EV over PHEV (at least in this particular case).

I understand your point about the Crosstrek being offered only in PHEV, but again, not the same size class vehicle as the BZ4X/Solterra, the Forester is the closer comparison to the BZ4X/Solterra.

Subaru has massive holes in their lineup on the hybrid & electric front.

With current fed rebates, yes it makes sense to go Solterra over PHEV Crosstek, but that will only last so long, hence comparing MSRP. Those credits will eventually go away and the gap in pricing, and massive hole in the lineup will reappear.
Rav4 Prime PHEV = $40,300
bZ4X BEV AWD = $44,080

The Hybrid is a waste of time. It's just for start/stop and parking lots. The Prime and BEV are only $3,780 different. I'd rather the BEV over the annoyance of gas, maintenance, etc. Although, and this is Toyota's mistake (to us, not them, they actually don't like EVs) the Prime is faster 0-60 than the bZ4X, which doesn't make sense.

SOA has a 200,000 car max for the fed credit. They have sold what? Ten thousand? It will last them a long time, and hopefully the cap will be removed to allow Tesla and GM back into the fold. Toyota will run out completely next year.

Crosstrek BEV would solve the hole. Make a short wheel base Solterra, call it the Crosstrek.

Last edited by Snow Drift; 06-16-2022 at 09:30 AM.
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Old 06-16-2022, 09:52 AM   #34
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e-SGP is just SGP w/ a pack. If it's more than that, is it really SGP? Or is it a Toyota chassis?
e-SGP is a ground-up BEV platform, not just "SGP with a pack". yes, it's e-TNGA with a different name (similarly, e-TNGA is not the TNGA with a pack, again, ground up EV platform). How much of e-SGP is Toyota and how much of it is Subaru is up to Toyota & Subaru to disclose, but based on the available information, it's Toyota.

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You can't really compare a mild hybrid to a BEV and then discuss price gap. They are completely different things. The PHEV, which is closer in category, is nearly the same price. The Hybrid is a waste of time. It's just for start/stop and parking lots.

SOA has a 200,000 car max for the fed credit. They have sold what? Ten thousand? It will last them a long time, and hopefully the cap will be removed to allow Tesla and GM back into the fold. Toyota will run out completely next year.

Crosstrek BEV would solve the hole. Make a short wheel base Solterra, call it the Crosstrek.
I'm comparing an entry level hybrid to entry level BEV from the same manufacturer that are equipped similarly and are the same size (Rav4 hybrid to BZ4X). Just because Subaru doesn't have much in the way of hybrids doesn't invalidate my comparison of what Toyota is offering.

A hybrid is not a waste of time, nor is it "just for start/stop & parking lots" Look at the real world data and you see a massive increase in fuel economy over the gas option, in the Rav4 the difference between the I4 ICE & the hybrid is ~10mpg on average (mid-20's to mid-30's). When it comes to the Prime, it can go 42 miles on battery power, the Crosstrek can only do 17 on battery only.

What's actually happening is that the Crosstrek is a poor implementation of hybrid tech, and it would be a bad buy over other hybrids on the market, which explains the abysmal sales numbers.

Whether a BEV Crosstrek would sell or not can be debated, but shortening the wheelbase of the BZ4X/Solterra isn't going to make it sell for Crosstrek money, it's still going to sell for BZ4X/Solterra money, because the money is in the batteries & propulsion system.

If two vehicles are on the market with a minimal/nonexistent price spread, with the same range & performance figures, but one is ~10" shorter and has less cargo & passenger capacity, which will people buy?
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Old 06-16-2022, 10:04 AM   #35
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With Subaru's size, they have a limited ability to offer a lot of distinct models and prices, that's what hindering them. Hence the gaps in the line-up.

Impreza: is their entry-level bread-and butter. Sells well since the 2008 (and 2017) redesigns, though time will tell if they'll keep the sedan version for 2024. IMHO, no way we'll see a PHEV/EV version of it, too much effort, and too expensive.

The Crosstrek sells like pancakes, a winner model (except for the PHEV). However, it ate away sales from the Impreza. It'll remain on the SGP platform for the next iteration. A new PHEV version would definitely be interesting - if the price is right (read: relatively lower) OR if it has more autonomy. Speculation: another joint effort with Toyota and their Corolla Cross hybrid?

Forester/Ascent: It would make sense to offer a hybrid version for both.. if Subaru were a large company. However the Forester isn't a gas guzzler, so there is little incentive (they won't match the Rav4 anyways), while there is no hybrid powertrain with Ascent's FA24. Also, they've poured money into the Solterra. As a result, I'm quite sceptical about EV developments for these 2. Will they drop one of them in a few years alltogether?

Finally, another uknown: will Subaru invest in importing, certifying and deploying their CB18 engine (and developing a smaller CBx)? ICE isn't dead yet, while the FB20/25 powerplants aren't that efficient anymore as compared to the competition.

Somewhere, a chief financial officer in Subaru's headquarters will have some tough choices to make with the company's limited pool of ressources and money.
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Old 06-16-2022, 11:15 AM   #36
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The Hybrid is a waste of time. It's just for start/stop and parking lots.
Assuming you're talking about the RAV4 hybrid, I don't think it's a waste. When I drove ours for a week, I averaged 42mpg without modifying my driving style. With a light foot, it will drive in EV mode on the highway on any sort of downhill slope.

Given that we paid ~$36k for our top trim XSE, and our utility power comes largely from coal, I think we made the right choice for our usage.

Don't let this sidetrack the conversation though, I'm enjoying the discussion you guys are having.
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Old 06-16-2022, 11:23 AM   #37
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2017 Forester was a pretty big refresh as well.
Pretty big and the most up to that point.

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Originally Posted by Snow Drift View Post
I included Bumper, so that's the front end. Help me out, what is different on the interior besides the 11" screen being standard on all trims? The 2005 WRX had the all-new SAAB 9-2x interior, which was completely different from the 2004.

e-SGP is just SGP w/ a pack. If it's more than that, is it really SGP? Or is it a Toyota chassis?
The upper dash of the 2005 STI didn't change. It was from just below the vents down. Yeah, it was a good change. Ascent has far more of the dash being new. New steering wheel. I'm going to guess new turn signal/windshield washer stalks. All new EyeSight 4. Tailights are changed, meaning new rear gate. Whatever tweaks to the engine/trans that they won't mention. New interior tech changes. Bigger wheel change.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sid03SVT View Post
e-SGP is a ground-up BEV platform, not just "SGP with a pack". yes, it's e-TNGA with a different name (similarly, e-TNGA is not the TNGA with a pack, again, ground up EV platform). How much of e-SGP is Toyota and how much of it is Subaru is up to Toyota & Subaru to disclose, but based on the available information, it's Toyota.



I'm comparing an entry level hybrid to entry level BEV from the same manufacturer that are equipped similarly and are the same size (Rav4 hybrid to BZ4X). Just because Subaru doesn't have much in the way of hybrids doesn't invalidate my comparison of what Toyota is offering.

A hybrid is not a waste of time, nor is it "just for start/stop & parking lots" Look at the real world data and you see a massive increase in fuel economy over the gas option, in the Rav4 the difference between the I4 ICE & the hybrid is ~10mpg on average (mid-20's to mid-30's). When it comes to the Prime, it can go 42 miles on battery power, the Crosstrek can only do 17 on battery only.

What's actually happening is that the Crosstrek is a poor implementation of hybrid tech, and it would be a bad buy over other hybrids on the market, which explains the abysmal sales numbers.

Whether a BEV Crosstrek would sell or not can be debated, but shortening the wheelbase of the BZ4X/Solterra isn't going to make it sell for Crosstrek money, it's still going to sell for BZ4X/Solterra money, because the money is in the batteries & propulsion system.

If two vehicles are on the market with a minimal/nonexistent price spread, with the same range & performance figures, but one is ~10" shorter and has less cargo & passenger capacity, which will people buy?

What information points to it being "Toyota"? Toyota calls it one thing. Subaru calls it another. You basing off it being Toyota EV tech; so, the chassis must be Toyota? You're right though. They likely won't make any official statement that Subaru was actually the lead on the chassis. Subaru has better crash test ratings. Why wouldn't they let them handle that part?

How is the Crosstrek PHEV "bad implementation"? Is there another fully EV AWD PHEV that does it better?
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Old 06-16-2022, 12:05 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by Sid03SVT View Post
e-SGP is a ground-up BEV platform, not just "SGP with a pack". yes, it's e-TNGA with a different name (similarly, e-TNGA is not the TNGA with a pack, again, ground up EV platform). How much of e-SGP is Toyota and how much of it is Subaru is up to Toyota & Subaru to disclose, but based on the available information, it's Toyota.

I'm comparing an entry level hybrid to entry level BEV from the same manufacturer that are equipped similarly and are the same size (Rav4 hybrid to BZ4X). Just because Subaru doesn't have much in the way of hybrids doesn't invalidate my comparison of what Toyota is offering.

A hybrid is not a waste of time, nor is it "just for start/stop & parking lots" Look at the real world data and you see a massive increase in fuel economy over the gas option, in the Rav4 the difference between the I4 ICE & the hybrid is ~10mpg on average (mid-20's to mid-30's). When it comes to the Prime, it can go 42 miles on battery power, the Crosstrek can only do 17 on battery only.

What's actually happening is that the Crosstrek is a poor implementation of hybrid tech, and it would be a bad buy over other hybrids on the market, which explains the abysmal sales numbers.

Whether a BEV Crosstrek would sell or not can be debated, but shortening the wheelbase of the BZ4X/Solterra isn't going to make it sell for Crosstrek money, it's still going to sell for BZ4X/Solterra money, because the money is in the batteries & propulsion system.

If two vehicles are on the market with a minimal/nonexistent price spread, with the same range & performance figures, but one is ~10" shorter and has less cargo & passenger capacity, which will people buy?
Rav4 Hybrid is AWD, so it has to be compared with the bZ4X AWD.

Mild Hybrids are for start/stop, running electronics and parking lot driving. The Rav4 Hybrid does not really have propulsion capability on the road. It fires up the gas engine immediately. Just like my old 2015 Crosstrek Hybrid. EV propulsion was only achieved by barely touching the throttle, in a parking lot.

The Crosstrek PHEV is not poor implementation (it's slow, but so are all Crosstreks). It uses a Toyota Battery and Toyota electric motors. The reason range is lower than the Prime is because 1) the battery is smaller 8.8 vs 18 kWh, and 2) it powers all 4 wheels, all the time. It never goes to FWD like the Rav4. It is also only sold in ZEV states and at very low volume, not poor sales. Supply limitation, not demand. It is the only true AWD PHEV on the market. Now, a Solterra should be better in every aspect, so if it's not that's on Subaru.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DougNuts View Post
Assuming you're talking about the RAV4 hybrid, I don't think it's a waste. When I drove ours for a week, I averaged 42mpg without modifying my driving style. With a light foot, it will drive in EV mode on the highway on any sort of downhill slope.

Given that we paid ~$36k for our top trim XSE, and our utility power comes largely from coal, I think we made the right choice for our usage.

Don't let this sidetrack the conversation though, I'm enjoying the discussion you guys are having.
It's FWD most of the time that is why it is full efficient. The Rav4 Prime would be better by offering 42 miles of EV only range (you get zero in the mild hybrid). Also, a bZ4X would be even better as a true BEV.

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Originally Posted by JustyWRC View Post
Pretty big and the most up to that point.



The upper dash of the 2005 STI didn't change. It was from just below the vents down. Yeah, it was a good change. Ascent has far more of the dash being new. New steering wheel. I'm going to guess new turn signal/windshield washer stalks. All new EyeSight 4. Tailights are changed, meaning new rear gate. Whatever tweaks to the engine/trans that they won't mention. New interior tech changes. Bigger wheel change.




What information points to it being "Toyota"? Toyota calls it one thing. Subaru calls it another. You basing off it being Toyota EV tech; so, the chassis must be Toyota? You're right though. They likely won't make any official statement that Subaru was actually the lead on the chassis. Subaru has better crash test ratings. Why wouldn't they let them handle that part?

How is the Crosstrek PHEV "bad implementation"? Is there another fully EV AWD PHEV that does it better?
Vents down is basically what matters. Stereo, surround, shifter bezel, integrated storage, and steering wheel changed. It no longer looked horrible. Plus they got rid of the ugly black plastic side skirts.

Last edited by Snow Drift; 06-16-2022 at 12:12 PM.
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Old 06-16-2022, 01:14 PM   #39
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Rav4 Hybrid is AWD, so it has to be compared with the bZ4X AWD.
That's right, my mistake:
Rav4 hybrid AWD starts at 29.6k
BZ4X AWD starts at 44.1k
An even larger variance of 14.5k

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snow Drift View Post
Rav4 Hybrid is AWD, so it has to be
Mild Hybrids are for start/stop, running electronics and parking lot driving. The Rav4 Hybrid does not really have propulsion capability on the road. It fires up the gas engine immediately. Just like my old 2015 Crosstrek Hybrid. EV propulsion was only achieved by barely touching the throttle, in a parking lot.
It does not have EV-ONLY propulsion on the road, and I never said it did (until you get into the PHEV, hence the "EV" following the "PH"), but that isn't the point of a hybrid, the point is to increase fuel economy with a HYBRID powertrain (in this case gas and electric), which it does significantly when compared to the ICE model. Yes the Rav4 hybrid will operate in EV-ONLY mode at parking lot speeds & stop & go traffic with the engine off, but the hybrid system is always blending in EV power to keep the engine in it's optimal thermal efficiency range.

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Originally Posted by Snow Drift View Post
The Crosstrek PHEV is not poor implementation (it's slow, but so are all Crosstreks). It uses a Toyota Battery and Toyota electric motors. The reason range is lower than the Prime is because 1) the battery is smaller 8.8 vs 18 kWh, and 2) it powers all 4 wheels, all the time. It never goes to FWD like the Rav4. It is also only sold in ZEV states and at very low volume, not poor sales. Supply limitation, not demand. It is the only true AWD PHEV on the market. Now, a Solterra should be better in every aspect, so if it's not that's on Subaru.
The Crosstrek is slow, has poor EV only range, offers only a minimal improvement in fuel economy when compared to the ICE Crosstrek, and was only sold as a compliance car in ZEV markets - that is a poor implementation of hybrid technology.

The problem is once again, you're comparing a car from a different segment
to a BEV, mainly because Subaru has nothing else to offer. Yes the Solterra is a better option than a Crosstrek PHEV, but that's because the Crosstrek PHEV is garbage. IF compared to a properly designed hybrid (eg. not just a compliance vehicle), the BZ4X/Solterra isn't automatically a better option than the Rav4 hybrid, which is significantly cheaper.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snow Drift View Post
It's FWD most of the time that is why it is full efficient. The Rav4 Prime would be better by offering 42 miles of EV only range (you get zero in the mild hybrid). Also, a bZ4X would be even better as a true BEV.
FWD only mode does account for fuel savings, but see above - it's not responsible for all fuel savings, as the electric portion is always active, even at high speeds.

The Rav4 Prime is a better offering than the Crosstrek? yes, but so is the Rav4 Hybrid.
The Rav4 Prime is a better offering than the Rav4 Hybrid? 29.6k vs 40.3k, do the math and it may or may not be, partially depending on the status of the Federal tax credit, as that is a substantial jump in MSRP
The BZ4X/Solterra over the Crosstrek PHEV? again, do the math, but yeah probably.
The BZ4X/Solterra over the Rav4 hybrid? hard to make that argument with the massive gap in MSRP
The BZ4X/Solterra over the Rav4 Prime? It's ~4k or so difference, and if you can work with a BEV, yeah it's a better option.

Edit: If you've got ~40 minutes here is a good video explaining the Rav4 Hybrid system:

Last edited by Sid03SVT; 06-16-2022 at 01:16 PM. Reason: Video link added
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Old 06-16-2022, 01:20 PM   #40
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The Rav4 Hybrid does not really have propulsion capability on the road.
Yes and no. You're not going to drive to work without the gas engine coming on, but as I previously stated, if load is low enough, it will drive for a stretch as EV only, even on the highway. For example, I can drive the last half mile to our house in EV mode due to a long slight downhill, hitting EV mode button in the median, and keeping speed in the neighborhood under 20mph.

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It fires up the gas engine immediately.
Our 2021 does not behave that way.


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It's FWD most of the time that is why it is full efficient. The Rav4 Prime would be better by offering 42 miles of EV only range (you get zero in the mild hybrid).
My Outback is also FWD most of the time. I agree that a RAV4 Prime is "better" in a few ways, but they were marked up significantly when we got our RAV4 and they are significantly heavier.
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Old 06-16-2022, 01:40 PM   #41
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Yes and no. You're not going to drive to work without the gas engine coming on, but as I previously stated, if load is low enough, it will drive for a stretch as EV only, even on the highway. For example, I can drive the last half mile to our house in EV mode due to a long slight downhill, hitting EV mode button in the median, and keeping speed in the neighborhood under 20mph.



Our 2021 does not behave that way.




My Outback is also FWD most of the time. I agree that a RAV4 Prime is "better" in a few ways, but they were marked up significantly when we got our RAV4 and they are significantly heavier.
I know how a hybrid works, I had a 2015 Crosstrek Hybrid. The car will switch back and forth when cruising on the highway or basically coasting. As soon as you tip in, the engine fires up and you use gas. From a dead stop, the car will start off EV and then again, at tip in, go to gas. You cannot drive around in EV mode like a PHEV or BEV. The gas engine is almost always used.

Your Outback is never FWD. It is 60:40 (I think your year 3.6R no longer had VTD) and then anywhere up to 50:50. It cannot disconnect an axle. Toyota's AWD system turns off above 40 mph completely, and will only engage when necessary. It is FWD most of the time.

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That's right, my mistake:
Rav4 hybrid AWD starts at 29.6k
BZ4X AWD starts at 44.1k
An even larger variance of 14.5k



It does not have EV-ONLY propulsion on the road, and I never said it did (until you get into the PHEV, hence the "EV" following the "PH"), but that isn't the point of a hybrid, the point is to increase fuel economy with a HYBRID powertrain (in this case gas and electric), which it does significantly when compared to the ICE model. Yes the Rav4 hybrid will operate in EV-ONLY mode at parking lot speeds & stop & go traffic with the engine off, but the hybrid system is always blending in EV power to keep the engine in it's optimal thermal efficiency range.



The Crosstrek is slow, has poor EV only range, offers only a minimal improvement in fuel economy when compared to the ICE Crosstrek, and was only sold as a compliance car in ZEV markets - that is a poor implementation of hybrid technology.

The problem is once again, you're comparing a car from a different segment
to a BEV, mainly because Subaru has nothing else to offer. Yes the Solterra is a better option than a Crosstrek PHEV, but that's because the Crosstrek PHEV is garbage. IF compared to a properly designed hybrid (eg. not just a compliance vehicle), the BZ4X/Solterra isn't automatically a better option than the Rav4 hybrid, which is significantly cheaper.



FWD only mode does account for fuel savings, but see above - it's not responsible for all fuel savings, as the electric portion is always active, even at high speeds.

The Rav4 Prime is a better offering than the Crosstrek? yes, but so is the Rav4 Hybrid.
The Rav4 Prime is a better offering than the Rav4 Hybrid? 29.6k vs 40.3k, do the math and it may or may not be, partially depending on the status of the Federal tax credit, as that is a substantial jump in MSRP
The BZ4X/Solterra over the Crosstrek PHEV? again, do the math, but yeah probably.
The BZ4X/Solterra over the Rav4 hybrid? hard to make that argument with the massive gap in MSRP
The BZ4X/Solterra over the Rav4 Prime? It's ~4k or so difference, and if you can work with a BEV, yeah it's a better option.

Edit: If you've got ~40 minutes here is a good video explaining the Rav4 Hybrid system: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O61WihMRdjM
A mild hybrid saves gas by preventing idling, and by turn off the engine when coasting or not under acceleration. They have benefits over a pure ICE, I agree, but a PHEV being able to run purely on electric motors is superior. Prime is a better car than the Hybrid as it has 42 miles of EV range and it's actually a pretty quick SUV.

Crosstrek is slow bc the gas engine is slow and the battery pack is small. However, it is quicker than the ICE 2.0 Crosstrek. The specs are not great, but its sales are not due to demand, it is based on a lack of production. It's the only full time AWD PHEV on the market. I just sold my 2019 Crosstrek PHEV for $30k, so I basically drove it for free over 2.5 years. There's nothing wrong with the design, as it is from Toyota (which you like). The issue is the dinky gas engine, 2.0T would be better, but worse efficiency, the gas tank is smaller than the ICE Crosstrek (which hurts total range) and the battery pack is small, I am sure due to the small size of the Crosstrek's spare tire area (vs a skateboard battery pack).

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Old 06-16-2022, 01:59 PM   #42
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Your Outback is never FWD. It is 60:40 (I think your year 3.6R no longer had VTD) and then anywhere up to 50:50. It cannot disconnect an axle. Toyota's AWD system turns off above 40 mph completely, and will only engage when necessary. It is FWD most of the time.
Anecdotally, I find that the my Toyota highlander's awd performs better than my Outback did. I would often get front wheel spin in my outback under acceleration (turning onto a busy road). I get nothing at all in my highlander ever. And the highlander is more powerful and faster.

Another anecdote - last winter I was driving up to the mountains with like 2+' of fresh snow following an outback. We ended up in an unplowed lane but there were tracks. The outback eventually stopped and tried to pull into the plowed lane. It couldn't. I turned the wheel, locked the center diff, and pulled out without hesitancy. Both of us had snow tires. They had to back up and use my tracks to get out.

So while the theory behind the subaru awd system makes it seem better, that is not my experience in the real world.
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Old 06-16-2022, 02:31 PM   #43
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A mild hybrid saves gas by preventing idling, and by turn off the engine when coasting or not under acceleration. They have benefits over a pure ICE, I agree, but a PHEV being able to run purely on electric motors is superior. Prime is a better car than the Hybrid as it has 42 miles of EV range and it's actually a pretty quick SUV.
You do not understand "how a hybrid works". I just told you how the Rav4 Hybrid system works, as well as provided a video link that explains in more detail how it works. Yes, a hybrid does those things (prevents idling, low speed or start/stop traffic EV only propulsion) but the system in the Rav4 (and other Toyotas) does significantly more than just that.

Having EV range doesn't automatically make a PHEV "superior" than a non-plug-in hybrid, unless the only metric you care about is "EV only range in a hybrid" and completely ignore the costs associated with owning & maintaining a vehicle, and the 14.5k extra up front cost is something that has to be considered, especially since that's nearly half what a Rav4 hybrid costs.

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Crosstrek is slow bc the gas engine is slow and the battery pack is small. However, it is quicker than the ICE 2.0 Crosstrek. The specs are not great, but its sales are not due to demand, it is based on a lack of production. It's the only full time AWD PHEV on the market. I just sold my 2019 Crosstrek PHEV for $30k, so I basically drove it for free over 2.5 years. There's nothing wrong with the design, as it is from Toyota (which you like). The issue is the dinky gas engine, 2.0T would be better, but worse efficiency, the gas tank is smaller than the ICE Crosstrek (which hurts total range) and the battery pack is small, I am sure due to the small size of the Crosstrek's spare tire area (vs a skateboard battery pack).
I'm glad you enjoyed your time with your Crosstrek PHEV, but that doesn't make it a good implementation of hybrid tech, you've stated many things wrong with the design (low EV only range, poor acceleration, not much better on fuel than it's ICE counterpart, small tank, small battery etc.) it was a compliance car sold in select markets; also, being "the only one" of something doesn't make it inherently good; there is a reason most of the AWD vehicles on the market utilize a part-time system, and it's not just ICE/Hybrid AWD vehicles, AWD EVs decouple an axle as well.

You got 30k for your 2019 Crosstrek PHEV because of the current state of the used car market, not because it's a good vehicle; we are trading in my wifes 2017 Corolla 6mt hatch for MORE than we paid for it, including the TTR fees when we bought it, and it's not because a 2017 Corolla hatch is desirable to collectors of rare vehicles, it's because of the current state of the used car market.

It's not that "I like Toyota" it's that "Toyota makes a better hybrid than Subaru".
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Old 06-16-2022, 02:37 PM   #44
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Anecdotally, I find that the my Toyota highlander's awd performs better than my Outback did. I would often get front wheel spin in my outback under acceleration (turning onto a busy road). I get nothing at all in my highlander ever. And the highlander is more powerful and faster.

Another anecdote - last winter I was driving up to the mountains with like 2+' of fresh snow following an outback. We ended up in an unplowed lane but there were tracks. The outback eventually stopped and tried to pull into the plowed lane. It couldn't. I turned the wheel, locked the center diff, and pulled out without hesitancy. Both of us had snow tires. They had to back up and use my tracks to get out.

So while the theory behind the subaru awd system makes it seem better, that is not my experience in the real world.
His definition of "better" is "full-time" eg. he's drinking the marketing kool-aid. There are a myriad of better systems on the market than what Subaru uses, and by "better" I mean systems that function and perform better, they however do not come with dogs and LOVE.
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Old 06-16-2022, 03:42 PM   #45
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Anecdotally, I find that the my Toyota highlander's awd performs better than my Outback did. I would often get front wheel spin in my outback under acceleration (turning onto a busy road). I get nothing at all in my highlander ever. And the highlander is more powerful and faster.

Another anecdote - last winter I was driving up to the mountains with like 2+' of fresh snow following an outback. We ended up in an unplowed lane but there were tracks. The outback eventually stopped and tried to pull into the plowed lane. It couldn't. I turned the wheel, locked the center diff, and pulled out without hesitancy. Both of us had snow tires. They had to back up and use my tracks to get out.

So while the theory behind the subaru awd system makes it seem better, that is not my experience in the real world.
Depends on which Outback they had. If it was newer with Active AWD, 60:40 split via a clutch-pack, that's the least capable of all AWD Subarus in history. It is still better than 99% of other SUVs, but not as good as in the past w/ VTD or manual Viscous Coupling. Your ability to lock, def helps. I also read that the Highlander has a rear differential? Plus, no idea the age of his tires, how aggressively treaded they were and his actual ability to drive.
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Old 06-16-2022, 04:05 PM   #46
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You do not understand "how a hybrid works". I just told you how the Rav4 Hybrid system works, as well as provided a video link that explains in more detail how it works. Yes, a hybrid does those things (prevents idling, low speed or start/stop traffic EV only propulsion) but the system in the Rav4 (and other Toyotas) does significantly more than just that.

Having EV range doesn't automatically make a PHEV "superior" than a non-plug-in hybrid, unless the only metric you care about is "EV only range in a hybrid" and completely ignore the costs associated with owning & maintaining a vehicle, and the 14.5k extra up front cost is something that has to be considered, especially since that's nearly half what a Rav4 hybrid costs.
I completely understand how it works. I have owned a mild Hybrid. It can put around a parking lot, and then it turns on the gas engine. From a dead stop it glides off in EV mode and then turns on the gas motor. After you get up to speed it turns off the engine and uses battery. Then you go up hill or need more power and after the initial squirt of electrons it goes back to gas. Then when you get to some top speed it can't use EV and it only runs the gas engine. Whenever you need to really press the pedal down it uses the gas engine. In stop and go traffic it uses the battery until it gets so low that it can't and it runs the gas engine fully to recharge itself/propel.

The primary point of a Hybrid or a PHEV or a BEV is to reduce your use of gas. BEV > PHEV > Hybrid. Period. It's about driving without using, or minimizing, gas. That's the point of why the technology exists.

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I'm glad you enjoyed your time with your Crosstrek PHEV, but that doesn't make it a good implementation of hybrid tech, you've stated many things wrong with the design (low EV only range, poor acceleration, not much better on fuel than it's ICE counterpart, small tank, small battery etc.) it was a compliance car sold in select markets; also, being "the only one" of something doesn't make it inherently good; there is a reason most of the AWD vehicles on the market utilize a part-time system, and it's not just ICE/Hybrid AWD vehicles, AWD EVs decouple an axle as well.

You got 30k for your 2019 Crosstrek PHEV because of the current state of the used car market, not because it's a good vehicle; we are trading in my wifes 2017 Corolla 6mt hatch for MORE than we paid for it, including the TTR fees when we bought it, and it's not because a 2017 Corolla hatch is desirable to collectors of rare vehicles, it's because of the current state of the used car market.

It's not that "I like Toyota" it's that "Toyota makes a better hybrid than Subaru".
The Crosstrek PHEV was a dog. I did not like owning it. However, that was not because Subaru did something wrong, it's just that I am accustomed to quicker cars, turbos, being able to downshift (manual or autostick) and one-pedal driving's regen capability. None of which they would ever have offered, since the Crosstrek is for a boring demographic. The car had a lot of downsides, which were by design and the demographic probably didn't mind it. I would change a lot of things.

But to be clear, Toyota provided the hybrid system: The Crosstrek PHEV uses a battery pack from the Prius Prime and the Motor Generator 1 and 2 from the Camry Hybrid.

Subaru diverges from Toyota with their own CVT and placing MG2 at the transmission, allowing for full time AWD, instead of using an eMotor on the rear axle like in the Prime. This means less range, but more capability and never having a FWD feeling.

My point about the resale is that it is not a bad product without a market. It would have done even better if Subaru had produced more, and sold it all over. But then again, it was doomed to fail from the start as it doesn't compete with the Rav4 Prime. Perhaps a Forester PHEV would have been better since it could accept the larger 18 kWh battery pack from the Rav4 Prime. It also needs a turbo, but so do all Subarus.

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Old 06-16-2022, 05:20 PM   #47
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His definition of "better" is "full-time" eg. he's drinking the marketing kool-aid. There are a myriad of better systems on the market than what Subaru uses, and by "better" I mean systems that function and perform better, they however do not come with dogs and LOVE.



The only "better" systems are on higher priced vehicles. There is claim by certain individuals that Honda has a "superior" system than what Subaru has ever made; yet, on the front page of this site has a comparison where that AWD system overheated and didn't perform as well. Better? I'd say not. The only time I have ever been stuck in a Subaru was my first year driving my '85 Justy 4WD in the snow with a full load of people. Went to turn and it didn't. Popping over a curb and high centering it. We got out, lifted it back off of it and continued on. Anything can get stuck. It's usually a "bad" decision. "Anecdotally" that Subaru that got stuck and the Toyota that didn't couldn't have possibly had the "exact" same conditions and could have still been "bad" driving on the Subaru driver.


There is no other hybrid that has the capability of the Crosstrek at the price the Crosstrek is offered. Is it the best hybrid? No. Of course not. Is it the best hybrid for what it's intended to do? At the price that it is? Yes.
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Old 06-16-2022, 05:45 PM   #48
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Depends on which Outback they had. If it was newer with Active AWD, 60:40 split via a clutch-pack, that's the least capable of all AWD Subarus in history. It is still better than 99% of other SUVs, but not as good as in the past w/ VTD or manual Viscous Coupling. Your ability to lock, def helps. I also read that the Highlander has a rear differential? Plus, no idea the age of his tires, how aggressively treaded they were and his actual ability to drive.
There are a lot of variables, no doubt. It was a 5th gen outback. They eventually made it to the lot and I took a glance at their tires - they had relatively new blizzaks on there. I have relatively new Nokian WR G4's on my highlander(so just all weathers). The center lock is awesome in the snow. It only works up to 25 mph and then the computer takes over.

I just couple that with all of the front wheel slip I used to get in our 4th gen outback and I'm just not sold that subaru's awd system is superior in any way to to the more active awd systems out there. Maybe in some extreme tests that don't replicate real life, but I've yet to find a situation where I feel less confident in the highlander than I did in the outback.

Now I'll also take a step back and say that my wrx's awd system was pretty nice. I didn't mind the 4motion in my golf R and it was awesome for 99.9% of my driving, but when pushed to it's limits, the WRX was better and more predictable. I could feel when the rear kicked in on the Golf R, never had that feeling in the wrx since the rear was always engaged. But the positives for the R's awd systems (insane mpg) outweighed the drawbacks.
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Old 06-16-2022, 05:48 PM   #49
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The Crosstrek hybrid weighs like 4k lbs and has 140 hp to move it. It will simply not move in difficult terrain. It gives up, like everyone should do before another thread is locked.
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Old 06-16-2022, 06:01 PM   #50
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Got to love discussions over a word that hasn't ever been properly defined and agreed upon by both parties, and which should effectively be banned from technical forums. "Better".

Detail it as a clearly framed function of well-defined variables and factors than can be independently measured, reboot discusssion.

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