'98 Legacy Outback blown head gasket? Spark plug analysis...

annointed · 04-21-2005, 01:26 AM

I just bought a '98 Legacy Outback Ltd (DOHC EJ25/5mt, 137k miles), with what the owner told me was a blown head gasket (coolant is empty, engine gradually overheats, and the heat blows cold, etc). I plan on using the car to do an EJ257/6mt swap, but first I want to get it up and running in stock form, get it inspected, registered, etc.

At any rate, I just recieved the car from the shipper last week, and my replacement head gasket from subaruparts.com arrived on Monday. Today I pulled the plugs expecting/hoping to find a "steam cleaned" plug or two. Instead, 3 of the plugs look fairly normal, with a considerable amount of charcoal deposit, but nothing really out of the ordinary. But cyl #2's plug is drastically darker, particularly on the threads, on the metal at the base of the threads (where the ratchet/wrench grips to install/remove the spark plug), as well as the upper section of the porcelain extension that the spark plug wires connect to. I took several pics (phone digicam, so forgive the quality) of the plugs that hopefully show enough detail to be of some help.

Anyway, at this point, should I rethink the head gasket problem? It still sounds like the best diagnosis. I noticed the car had a CEL when I drove it the half mile to my house from where I picked it up from the shipping truck. It starts fine and drives smoothly. I have OBD2 software on my Palm, but the Palm's battery just died, so by friday I'll have the new battery to pull the code and see if it sheds any light on possible problems. Until then I don't want to disconnect the negative terminal on the car for any reason, as I would like to see the CEL(s). I also plan to do a compression test to see what kind of results I get. Finally, I'm thinking I should probably just re-fill the coolant, and run/drive the car and see how long it takes for the coolant to drain and/or the temp gauge to rise beyond normal levels, rather than just go on the owner's word that its a blown head gasket.

I should have the pics hosted later tonight, and I appreciate any insight from my fellow tri-staters.

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munkis · 04-21-2005, 09:03 AM

That looks like burnt oil. Spark plug seals on the valve cover are probably leaking oil into the spark plug wells, and its being burnt, and thats what you get when oil breaks down after extreme heat. Either that or excessive blow by on that cylinder.

any pics of the electrodes?

Probably still needs head gaskets.

Jay

annointed · 04-22-2005, 01:45 AM

Ok, got my Palm up and running again, and pulled the codes:

P0400 Exhaust Gas Recirculation Flow
P0420 Catalyst System Efficiency below threshold
P0483 Cooling Fan Rationality Check

I would assume that only the 3rd code really relates to the head gasket. I forgot to check Freeze Frame while I was out there, so I'll have another look in the morning.

annointed · 05-07-2005, 02:21 PM

Well, finally had a chance to compression test the car over lunch, since work has been so busy that I haven't touched the car in 2 weeks. Unfortunately, the engine was completely cold, as I didn't want to re-install all the spark plugs to warm it up, then pull them all back out to compression test

Cyl 1: 218
Cyl 2: 204
Cyl 3: 198
Cyl 4: 210

These numbers were way higher than the 140-175 psi that I expected (maybe I'm just used to low compression WRX engines?), but at least they are all within a 10% window.

I'm starting to wonder about the blown head gasket, as neither the plugs nor the compression test hint at a blown gasket. The engine oil is also clean and normal looking.

On Monday I think the next step is to replenish and bleed the coolant system (it was empty when I recieved it), and let the car run, and see if it still overheats, or if its drinking coolant. Maybe its even as simple as an external leak in the coolant system somewhere, although I would think the previous owner would have thought of that. At this point I've been going on the previous owner's word that it overheats and heat blows cold in the cabin due to a blown head gasket, but I haven't taken the time to personally verify either...seems like a logical next step.

Any thoughts and insight are appreciated.

Mark

annointed · 05-08-2005, 08:47 PM

Not that anyone cares, but I had some time this evening to refill and bleed the coolant system on the Outback. The car runs superbly...smooth as silk...I cleared the CELs, and plan to register/insure the vehicle tomorrow morning. That will give me 14 days of street usage before I have to get her inspected by the state. If no codes pop up in the first 7 days, I'll probably take it into the state for inspection next Monday. This should also allow me to moniter whether or not the car drinks coolant, since I log 800-1000 miles/week for work...better believe I'll be packing several gallons of distilled water in the trunk to play it safe

As for tonight, I probably had it running for at least 45 min, with at least 5 key on/key off cycles...no codes reemerged, and nothing unusual in any way, so we'll see what this week holds

jellybytes · 05-08-2005, 09:42 PM

I am following this. Any evidence of a legacy not actually blowing its head gasket is of interest to me since I have a 1998 Legacy Gt with 145k on it and no headgasket problems.

annointed · 05-11-2005, 03:27 PM

Well, my pussyfooting around with this car continues...I always have been a procrastinator, but now it looks like at least one of the heads has to come off

I put the car on the road yesterday (my 27th birthday, ironically

), and last night I drove 2 miles away to get gas...the attendant asked if my car was running hot, saying he felt heat from it when he filled the gas tank (I'm in NJ - full service required)...I was like

I thought maybe the jdm Legacy b4 wheels were rubbing the rear struts, since clearance was tight, but they were cool to the touch...the car was somewhat hot by the gas cap, but it had cooled off by the time he mentioned it to me.

By the time I was almost home, the temp gauge decided to shoot for the stars....I put the heat on full blast, and made it home with the gauge nearly maxed out, and my obd2 scanner saying coolant temps were 244 F.

So much for no problems. Just to make sure it wasn't just air in the coolant system, I spent an hour and a half feeding it coolant and letting it gradually burp out any air...the coolant temps won't drop below 205 F at idle w/heat off. With heat on high they'll come down to 190 F and the fans will shut off, but as soon as you take it for a drive, the temps will gradually rise again to 225-240 F within minutes.

Today I drove the car, let it start to overheat, then pulled the plugs and did a warm/hot compression test to see if the numbers were any different from the cold test I did the last week...I'll put last weeks figures next to this weeks for easy comparison:

------cold-hot
Cyl 1: 218 213
Cyl 2: 204 209
Cyl 3: 198 218
Cyl 4: 210 210

Both with the cold and hot tests I actually did 3 tests of each cylinder, so I'm pretty confident in the numbers. The only thing noteworthy is that cyl 3 is 20 points higher when warm...so I'm going to start with that head gasket (right side). I'm tempted to just do both gaskets, though, since by the time I have the manifold, timing belt, motor mounts off, and engine jacked up, I may as well replace the left side as well, just to be safe.

If I can get up early tomorrow, I'll get this started, since I only have 14 days to get it inspected...

annointed · 11-11-2005, 05:19 PM

Ok, time to bump this thread. Winter looms, and I need my Outback up and running

I had a RARE day off today, and starting last night, a buddy and I pulled both heads from the car, and to our surprise, there is no clear sign of head gasket failure on either side

I'm taking the heads in to be looked at for cracks/warpage on Monday.

The front head studs were noticably looser than the rears, so its possible that coolant was seeping somewhere due to insufficient tightening, although that scenario is unlikely.

Any advice is appreciated. Unfortunately, I am replacing two of the camshaft gears (to the tune of $100 each) that were abused/damaged during removal (what kind of special tool is needed to get those suckers off???).

Needless to say, I'm a bit discouraged, as I was positive this was a routine head gasket problem, but now I'm not so sure

Assuming the heads are fine, my only hope is to put in the two new head gaskets, reassemble the entire thing, and hope that somehow the problem is fixed. I won't have time to start putting this back together, as I work non-stop, until next Thursday. Any insight is appreciated.

Mark

munkis · 11-11-2005, 06:18 PM

how do the impellers on the water pump look? I hope you are replacing the water pump and the thermostat while you are in there. What are the temps accross the radiator? Did the heat go cold when you had it on?

did you see bubbles in the overflow tank when it was overheating? White smoke out the exhaust?

so many things that you can check.

If the heads check out ok, put it back together. FWIW bleeding the air out of 98 is a pain. Its actually easier to bleed if you fill it from the tiny bleed hole rather than the cap side.

Jay

annointed · 11-11-2005, 06:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by McDade

how do the impellers on the water pump look? I hope you are replacing the water pump and the thermostat while you are in there. What are the temps accross the radiator? Did the heat go cold when you had it on?

did you see bubbles in the overflow tank when it was overheating? White smoke out the exhaust?

so many things that you can check.

If the heads check out ok, put it back together. FWIW bleeding the air out of 98 is a pain. Its actually easier to bleed if you fill it from the tiny bleed hole rather than the cap side.

Jay

Not sure how the impellars on the water pump look. I didn't order a new thermostat, but it crossed my mind to do it while its out. I think I'll also get a new water pump while I'm at it, if that could be a culprit.

Heat does go cold when temps rise, after about 5 min of driving. I do not recall bubbles in overflow tank, but I could be mistaken. It does blow out some white smoke when first started, but I didn't notice too much of it, especially after initial start up.

We'll see what the verdict is when the heads are checked out...

I just wish I had a more definite problem rearing its ugly head. This guesswork is driving me nuts

annointed · 11-14-2005, 01:23 PM

I just dropped the heads off to a local shop to have them cleaned, checked for warpage, and possibly refinished.

We noticed that one of the cylinders does indeed look washed clean, and that you can see the coolant chamber that was leaking the coolant into the cylinder. The machinist said that the head didn't look bad from a glance, and pointed out that there was only one small spot on the head gasket that showed overheating, so I'm crossing my fingers, and hoping everything's going to be alright.

Hopefully Thursday my new cam gears come in, and the car goes back together with new gaskets...

04-21-2005, 01:26 AM	#1
annointed Scooby Specialist Member#: 5960 Join Date: Apr 2001 Chapter/Region: Tri-State Location: Atlantic City, NJ Vehicle: FXT 11.6@118 93 oct NSX 450 whp SC'd (93 oct)	'98 Legacy Outback blown head gasket? Spark plug analysis... I just bought a '98 Legacy Outback Ltd (DOHC EJ25/5mt, 137k miles), with what the owner told me was a blown head gasket (coolant is empty, engine gradually overheats, and the heat blows cold, etc). I plan on using the car to do an EJ257/6mt swap, but first I want to get it up and running in stock form, get it inspected, registered, etc. At any rate, I just recieved the car from the shipper last week, and my replacement head gasket from subaruparts.com arrived on Monday. Today I pulled the plugs expecting/hoping to find a "steam cleaned" plug or two. Instead, 3 of the plugs look fairly normal, with a considerable amount of charcoal deposit, but nothing really out of the ordinary. But cyl #2's plug is drastically darker, particularly on the threads, on the metal at the base of the threads (where the ratchet/wrench grips to install/remove the spark plug), as well as the upper section of the porcelain extension that the spark plug wires connect to. I took several pics (phone digicam, so forgive the quality) of the plugs that hopefully show enough detail to be of some help. Anyway, at this point, should I rethink the head gasket problem? It still sounds like the best diagnosis. I noticed the car had a CEL when I drove it the half mile to my house from where I picked it up from the shipping truck. It starts fine and drives smoothly. I have OBD2 software on my Palm, but the Palm's battery just died, so by friday I'll have the new battery to pull the code and see if it sheds any light on possible problems. Until then I don't want to disconnect the negative terminal on the car for any reason, as I would like to see the CEL(s). I also plan to do a compression test to see what kind of results I get. Finally, I'm thinking I should probably just re-fill the coolant, and run/drive the car and see how long it takes for the coolant to drain and/or the temp gauge to rise beyond normal levels, rather than just go on the owner's word that its a blown head gasket. I should have the pics hosted later tonight, and I appreciate any insight from my fellow tri-staters. * Registered users of the site do not see these ads.

05-11-2005, 03:27 PM	#7
annointed Scooby Specialist Member#: 5960 Join Date: Apr 2001 Chapter/Region: Tri-State Location: Atlantic City, NJ Vehicle: FXT 11.6@118 93 oct NSX 450 whp SC'd (93 oct)	Well, my pussyfooting around with this car continues...I always have been a procrastinator, but now it looks like at least one of the heads has to come off I put the car on the road yesterday (my 27th birthday, ironically), and last night I drove 2 miles away to get gas...the attendant asked if my car was running hot, saying he felt heat from it when he filled the gas tank (I'm in NJ - full service required)...I was like I thought maybe the jdm Legacy b4 wheels were rubbing the rear struts, since clearance was tight, but they were cool to the touch...the car was somewhat hot by the gas cap, but it had cooled off by the time he mentioned it to me. By the time I was almost home, the temp gauge decided to shoot for the stars....I put the heat on full blast, and made it home with the gauge nearly maxed out, and my obd2 scanner saying coolant temps were 244 F. So much for no problems. Just to make sure it wasn't just air in the coolant system, I spent an hour and a half feeding it coolant and letting it gradually burp out any air...the coolant temps won't drop below 205 F at idle w/heat off. With heat on high they'll come down to 190 F and the fans will shut off, but as soon as you take it for a drive, the temps will gradually rise again to 225-240 F within minutes. Today I drove the car, let it start to overheat, then pulled the plugs and did a warm/hot compression test to see if the numbers were any different from the cold test I did the last week...I'll put last weeks figures next to this weeks for easy comparison: ------cold-hot Cyl 1: 218 213 Cyl 2: 204 209 Cyl 3: 198 218 Cyl 4: 210 210 Both with the cold and hot tests I actually did 3 tests of each cylinder, so I'm pretty confident in the numbers. The only thing noteworthy is that cyl 3 is 20 points higher when warm...so I'm going to start with that head gasket (right side). I'm tempted to just do both gaskets, though, since by the time I have the manifold, timing belt, motor mounts off, and engine jacked up, I may as well replace the left side as well, just to be safe. If I can get up early tomorrow, I'll get this started, since I only have 14 days to get it inspected...

11-11-2005, 05:19 PM	#8
annointed Scooby Specialist Member#: 5960 Join Date: Apr 2001 Chapter/Region: Tri-State Location: Atlantic City, NJ Vehicle: FXT 11.6@118 93 oct NSX 450 whp SC'd (93 oct)	update :( Ok, time to bump this thread. Winter looms, and I need my Outback up and running I had a RARE day off today, and starting last night, a buddy and I pulled both heads from the car, and to our surprise, there is no clear sign of head gasket failure on either side I'm taking the heads in to be looked at for cracks/warpage on Monday. The front head studs were noticably looser than the rears, so its possible that coolant was seeping somewhere due to insufficient tightening, although that scenario is unlikely. Any advice is appreciated. Unfortunately, I am replacing two of the camshaft gears (to the tune of $100 each) that were abused/damaged during removal (what kind of special tool is needed to get those suckers off???). Needless to say, I'm a bit discouraged, as I was positive this was a routine head gasket problem, but now I'm not so sure Assuming the heads are fine, my only hope is to put in the two new head gaskets, reassemble the entire thing, and hope that somehow the problem is fixed. I won't have time to start putting this back together, as I work non-stop, until next Thursday. Any insight is appreciated. Mark

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04-21-2005, 09:03 AM	#2
munkis Scooby Guru Member#: 1847 Join Date: Jul 2000 Chapter/Region: Tri-State Location: brokenmotorsports.com Vehicle: Team Broken: V6 GF rallyarmor.com	That looks like burnt oil. Spark plug seals on the valve cover are probably leaking oil into the spark plug wells, and its being burnt, and thats what you get when oil breaks down after extreme heat. Either that or excessive blow by on that cylinder. any pics of the electrodes? Probably still needs head gaskets. Jay

04-22-2005, 01:45 AM	#3
annointed Scooby Specialist Member#: 5960 Join Date: Apr 2001 Chapter/Region: Tri-State Location: Atlantic City, NJ Vehicle: FXT 11.6@118 93 oct NSX 450 whp SC'd (93 oct)	Ok, got my Palm up and running again, and pulled the codes: P0400 Exhaust Gas Recirculation Flow P0420 Catalyst System Efficiency below threshold P0483 Cooling Fan Rationality Check I would assume that only the 3rd code really relates to the head gasket. I forgot to check Freeze Frame while I was out there, so I'll have another look in the morning.

05-07-2005, 02:21 PM	#4
annointed Scooby Specialist Member#: 5960 Join Date: Apr 2001 Chapter/Region: Tri-State Location: Atlantic City, NJ Vehicle: FXT 11.6@118 93 oct NSX 450 whp SC'd (93 oct)	Well, finally had a chance to compression test the car over lunch, since work has been so busy that I haven't touched the car in 2 weeks. Unfortunately, the engine was completely cold, as I didn't want to re-install all the spark plugs to warm it up, then pull them all back out to compression test Cyl 1: 218 Cyl 2: 204 Cyl 3: 198 Cyl 4: 210 These numbers were way higher than the 140-175 psi that I expected (maybe I'm just used to low compression WRX engines?), but at least they are all within a 10% window. I'm starting to wonder about the blown head gasket, as neither the plugs nor the compression test hint at a blown gasket. The engine oil is also clean and normal looking. On Monday I think the next step is to replenish and bleed the coolant system (it was empty when I recieved it), and let the car run, and see if it still overheats, or if its drinking coolant. Maybe its even as simple as an external leak in the coolant system somewhere, although I would think the previous owner would have thought of that. At this point I've been going on the previous owner's word that it overheats and heat blows cold in the cabin due to a blown head gasket, but I haven't taken the time to personally verify either...seems like a logical next step. Any thoughts and insight are appreciated. Mark

05-08-2005, 08:47 PM	#5
annointed Scooby Specialist Member#: 5960 Join Date: Apr 2001 Chapter/Region: Tri-State Location: Atlantic City, NJ Vehicle: FXT 11.6@118 93 oct NSX 450 whp SC'd (93 oct)	Not that anyone cares, but I had some time this evening to refill and bleed the coolant system on the Outback. The car runs superbly...smooth as silk...I cleared the CELs, and plan to register/insure the vehicle tomorrow morning. That will give me 14 days of street usage before I have to get her inspected by the state. If no codes pop up in the first 7 days, I'll probably take it into the state for inspection next Monday. This should also allow me to moniter whether or not the car drinks coolant, since I log 800-1000 miles/week for work...better believe I'll be packing several gallons of distilled water in the trunk to play it safe As for tonight, I probably had it running for at least 45 min, with at least 5 key on/key off cycles...no codes reemerged, and nothing unusual in any way, so we'll see what this week holds

05-08-2005, 09:42 PM	#6
jellybytes Scooby Newbie Member#: 77414 Join Date: Dec 2004 Chapter/Region: Tri-State Location: NEPA Vehicle: 1989 '89 XT6 '97 SVX 2004 Outback VDC	I am following this. Any evidence of a legacy not actually blowing its head gasket is of interest to me since I have a 1998 Legacy Gt with 145k on it and no headgasket problems.

11-11-2005, 06:18 PM	#9
munkis Scooby Guru Member#: 1847 Join Date: Jul 2000 Chapter/Region: Tri-State Location: brokenmotorsports.com Vehicle: Team Broken: V6 GF rallyarmor.com	how do the impellers on the water pump look? I hope you are replacing the water pump and the thermostat while you are in there. What are the temps accross the radiator? Did the heat go cold when you had it on? did you see bubbles in the overflow tank when it was overheating? White smoke out the exhaust? so many things that you can check. If the heads check out ok, put it back together. FWIW bleeding the air out of 98 is a pain. Its actually easier to bleed if you fill it from the tiny bleed hole rather than the cap side. Jay

11-14-2005, 01:23 PM	#11
annointed Scooby Specialist Member#: 5960 Join Date: Apr 2001 Chapter/Region: Tri-State Location: Atlantic City, NJ Vehicle: FXT 11.6@118 93 oct NSX 450 whp SC'd (93 oct)	I just dropped the heads off to a local shop to have them cleaned, checked for warpage, and possibly refinished. We noticed that one of the cylinders does indeed look washed clean, and that you can see the coolant chamber that was leaking the coolant into the cylinder. The machinist said that the head didn't look bad from a glance, and pointed out that there was only one small spot on the head gasket that showed overheating, so I'm crossing my fingers, and hoping everything's going to be alright. Hopefully Thursday my new cam gears come in, and the car goes back together with new gaskets...