Crank Trigger Test

SloRice · 02-21-2007, 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Element Tuning

Loss of crank or cam signal (definitely possible). You can run the crank trigger test under tools/crank trigger test. This diagnostic will show you if there is a loss of either signal. It stores it an dumps it into a log. Here is what it looks like: The 1st normal the second bad, the third there is no cam signal

Thanks,
Phil
www.elementtuning.com

We just got done building an engine for a kid locally and we go to start the car and it just cranks and cranks with a couple pops every once and a while. I got a base map from Phil and I've been talking with Phil about some things. He asked me to do a crank trigger test and I did. I sent Phil the results last night, but haven't heard back yet. I did a little digging and found this post by Phil. When I did the test, my screen looks identical to the 2nd screen Phil has here, which he says is bad. I'm just curious if anyone knows why it's bad and what I can do to fix it as I'm assuming this is why the car isn't starting.

Thanks,
Tim

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Brydon · 02-21-2007, 10:13 AM

In the second it looks like the car is not correctly picking up the cam signal. In the third the cam signal is completely gone. The first is with both correct signals. So I would say you have a cam sensor problem.

x99percent · 02-21-2007, 12:38 PM

While cranking, is the tachometer behaving properly?

SloRice · 02-21-2007, 12:50 PM

It's not doing anything unusual if that's what you mean. But it still sit's at 0RPM.

Also, the battery voltage is low. I hooked it up to another car with jumper cables and it helps, but as soon at I start cranking, voltage on the Hydra goes to 10V and sometimes it will disconnect.

jblaine · 02-21-2007, 02:03 PM

Well, it kind of sounds to me like you know where to start. Obviously it's an electrical problem. Fully charge the battery, examine the Hydra harness for bent pins or loose wires... etc...

The Hydra's not going to do jack correctly at 10V.

SloRice · 02-21-2007, 02:22 PM

Stupid battery relocated to the trunk and Aeromotive A1000 fuel pump sucking up the juice to crank the motor!

I'm going to try and jump the car from the distribution blocks that are under the hood tonight and see if that keeps my volts up.

I will also watch the tach on the laptop to see what RPM its cranking at.

WhiteWoRX1 · 03-05-2007, 01:59 PM

Any update on the problem? I finally got to the point of starting my car after two years of downtime and ran into the same problem. I was only seeing 10 volts when cranking, so I had to jump it to get above 10.4 volts. I ran the crank trigger test and came up with the second, bad graph from above.

I was thinking I still had too low of a voltage, so I pulled power to the fuel pump and cranked. I was seeing 10.8 to 11.0 volts, did another crank trigger test and it was still bad. I am seeing RPM (500) readings on the hydra so I assume I have enough power.

I am going to swap out the cam position sensor and see what I get later on today.

Anyone know how often, or what causes the cam position sensor to go bad? It has been sitting on my head for 2 years of nothing. It was never dropped or damaged in any way. I guess its just one of those things that goes bad over time?

SloRice · 03-05-2007, 02:47 PM

Sounds like you are getting enough RPM. Is the Hydra showing that it's going from "online" to "error - offline" or something like that? If so, then you still don't have enough battery voltage.

Even after I got the battery voltage up and performed this test, my graph still looked like the 2nd graph.

Has the car ran before on the Hydra?

WhiteWoRX1 · 03-05-2007, 03:18 PM

The only time the Hydra goes from online to error is when I turn the key off and on. So I definetly have enough voltage. This is the first time the car has had the Hydra.

I am assuming that the cam pos. sensor is truly bad. I will replace it tonight and see what happens. Did replacing it on the car you are working on solve the problem?

SloRice · 03-05-2007, 03:56 PM

I didn't replace the sensor. My problem was I wasn't getting enough voltage.

Once I fixed the voltage issue, the car fired right up...kinda. The plugs were fouled because of all the cranking from before with the voltage to low and it took forever to start the car. So once I replaced the plugs and the car fired right up!

WhiteWoRX1 · 03-05-2007, 04:19 PM

Well, I'm pretty sure I am not having voltage problems because my Hydra was not disconnecting, and I was getting an RPM reading, but I will try to boost start it with a charger before I replace the sensor.

Thanks for the input!!!

SloRice · 03-05-2007, 05:11 PM

Pull your plugs and make sure they aren't fouled.

Who did you get your base map from? Are all the triggers set up correctly??

WhiteWoRX1 · 03-05-2007, 05:44 PM

Will do.

I got the Hydra through World One. I think they gave the mods to Phil. I have the base map for the Element GT65, or some form of it.

Can you give me some insight as to how to check if the triggers are set properly, or is that a call to Phil type question?

WhiteWoRX1 · 03-05-2007, 09:45 PM

Thanks Tim!!

WhiteWoRX1 · 03-06-2007, 11:57 AM

Come to find out, my cam position sensor was good. Phil clarified the results a little bit for me.

The top graph is normal for an STi. The top green line is the signal for the crank position sensor, and the yellow line is the signal for the cam position sensor. The yellow line for an STi should show the 3 waves because of the 3 reference points on the gear.

The middle graph is normal for a WRX. You should only see 2, longer duration waves for a WRX because it only has 2 reference points on the gear.

And the bottom graph is bad for both STi and WRX.

I just wanted to post this to clear things up a bit. When I did my test I saw the middle graph and thought my sensor was bad. It would have been if I had an STi. Hopefully the dealership will take a return on the sensor.

kay95 · 04-01-2007, 05:00 PM

What are the trigger wheels? I thought the WRX and STI had the same setup?
I thought they had a 24-2-2-2 wheel on the crank.

Element Tuning · 04-02-2007, 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kay95

What are the trigger wheels? I thought the WRX and STI had the same setup?
I thought they had a 24-2-2-2 wheel on the crank.

Crank is the same but the cam pickups are different. The WRX only has two on the cam sprocket and the STI has 3 on the camshaft itself.

Thanks,
Phil
www.elementtuning.com

3barboost · 04-08-2007, 01:04 PM

anyone got pics of these different pickups ?

I thought the cam pickups on wrx / sti were the same (on the back of them)
anyone got a picture ? showing the differences ?

Element Tuning · 04-08-2007, 03:08 PM

No up until the 06 WRX the cam pick up has been on the cam sprocket not the cam itself as in the STI.

Thanks,
Phil
www.elementtuning.com

bboy · 04-17-2007, 02:38 PM

That's my "no signal" graph up there. This was an installation problem. The EBC was tapped into the cam sensor signal and was sucking it off so that the Hydra never received it.

Strangely the car does start even without the sync, but it's very difficult, runs horribly and of course no AVCS.

kay95 · 04-17-2007, 07:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bboy

That's my "no signal" graph up there. This was an installation problem. The EBC was tapped into the cam sensor signal and was sucking it off so that the Hydra never received it.

Strangely the car does start even without the sync, but it's very difficult, runs horribly and of course no AVCS.

Why is that strange? The main crank trigger wheel has enough teeth to decode to run the engine. Now it doesnt have great resolution but it would be enough to get you home I bet.

For alot of cars having a 36-1 or 60-2 crank wheel with no cam wheel is the norm for alot of euro and domestic cars.

Mauled · 10-28-2024, 03:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WhiteWoRX1

Come to find out, my cam position sensor was good. Phil clarified the results a little bit for me.

The top graph is normal for an STi. The top green line is the signal for the crank position sensor, and the yellow line is the signal for the cam position sensor. The yellow line for an STi should show the 3 waves because of the 3 reference points on the gear.

The middle graph is normal for a WRX. You should only see 2, longer duration waves for a WRX because it only has 2 reference points on the gear.

And the bottom graph is bad for both STi and WRX.

I just wanted to post this to clear things up a bit. When I did my test I saw the middle graph and thought my sensor was bad. It would have been if I had an STi. Hopefully the dealership will take a return on the sensor.

I know this thread is old but I just did the same test and while cranking my crank sensor doesn't fluctuate like in the graph. Instead it's a straight line, always on. My car wont start and I'm wondering if it has to do with my crank sensor signal being always on.

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02-21-2007, 10:13 AM	#2
Brydon Scooby Specialist Member#: 107569 Join Date: Feb 2006 Chapter/Region: NWIC Location: Vancouver, WA Vehicle: 1998 Forester S SRP	In the second it looks like the car is not correctly picking up the cam signal. In the third the cam signal is completely gone. The first is with both correct signals. So I would say you have a cam sensor problem.

02-21-2007, 12:38 PM	#3
x99percent Scooby Specialist Member#: 27108 Join Date: Oct 2002 Chapter/Region: MWSOC Location: Detroit-ish, MI Vehicle: 2004 STi 2004 A4	While cranking, is the tachometer behaving properly?

02-21-2007, 12:50 PM	#4
SloRice Scooby Specialist Member#: 44351 Join Date: Sep 2003 Chapter/Region: MWSOC Location: Cincinnati, OH Vehicle: 2004 Mitsubishi Evo 701whp 9.91@146	It's not doing anything unusual if that's what you mean. But it still sit's at 0RPM. Also, the battery voltage is low. I hooked it up to another car with jumper cables and it helps, but as soon at I start cranking, voltage on the Hydra goes to 10V and sometimes it will disconnect.

02-21-2007, 02:03 PM	#5
jblaine Scooby Guru Member#: 8512 Join Date: Jul 2001 Chapter/Region: South East Location: St. Pete, FL Vehicle: 2002 WRX chassis... stage-infinity.com	Well, it kind of sounds to me like you know where to start. Obviously it's an electrical problem. Fully charge the battery, examine the Hydra harness for bent pins or loose wires... etc... The Hydra's not going to do jack correctly at 10V.

02-21-2007, 02:22 PM	#6
SloRice Scooby Specialist Member#: 44351 Join Date: Sep 2003 Chapter/Region: MWSOC Location: Cincinnati, OH Vehicle: 2004 Mitsubishi Evo 701whp 9.91@146	Stupid battery relocated to the trunk and Aeromotive A1000 fuel pump sucking up the juice to crank the motor! I'm going to try and jump the car from the distribution blocks that are under the hood tonight and see if that keeps my volts up. I will also watch the tach on the laptop to see what RPM its cranking at.

03-05-2007, 01:59 PM	#7
WhiteWoRX1 Scooby Newbie Member#: 92601 Join Date: Aug 2005 Chapter/Region: RMIC Location: Longmont, CO Vehicle: 01 Z06	Any update on the problem? I finally got to the point of starting my car after two years of downtime and ran into the same problem. I was only seeing 10 volts when cranking, so I had to jump it to get above 10.4 volts. I ran the crank trigger test and came up with the second, bad graph from above. I was thinking I still had too low of a voltage, so I pulled power to the fuel pump and cranked. I was seeing 10.8 to 11.0 volts, did another crank trigger test and it was still bad. I am seeing RPM (500) readings on the hydra so I assume I have enough power. I am going to swap out the cam position sensor and see what I get later on today. Anyone know how often, or what causes the cam position sensor to go bad? It has been sitting on my head for 2 years of nothing. It was never dropped or damaged in any way. I guess its just one of those things that goes bad over time?

03-05-2007, 02:47 PM	#8
SloRice Scooby Specialist Member#: 44351 Join Date: Sep 2003 Chapter/Region: MWSOC Location: Cincinnati, OH Vehicle: 2004 Mitsubishi Evo 701whp 9.91@146	Sounds like you are getting enough RPM. Is the Hydra showing that it's going from "online" to "error - offline" or something like that? If so, then you still don't have enough battery voltage. Even after I got the battery voltage up and performed this test, my graph still looked like the 2nd graph. Has the car ran before on the Hydra?

03-05-2007, 03:18 PM	#9
WhiteWoRX1 Scooby Newbie Member#: 92601 Join Date: Aug 2005 Chapter/Region: RMIC Location: Longmont, CO Vehicle: 01 Z06	The only time the Hydra goes from online to error is when I turn the key off and on. So I definetly have enough voltage. This is the first time the car has had the Hydra. I am assuming that the cam pos. sensor is truly bad. I will replace it tonight and see what happens. Did replacing it on the car you are working on solve the problem?

03-05-2007, 03:56 PM	#10
SloRice Scooby Specialist Member#: 44351 Join Date: Sep 2003 Chapter/Region: MWSOC Location: Cincinnati, OH Vehicle: 2004 Mitsubishi Evo 701whp 9.91@146	I didn't replace the sensor. My problem was I wasn't getting enough voltage. Once I fixed the voltage issue, the car fired right up...kinda. The plugs were fouled because of all the cranking from before with the voltage to low and it took forever to start the car. So once I replaced the plugs and the car fired right up!

03-05-2007, 04:19 PM	#11
WhiteWoRX1 Scooby Newbie Member#: 92601 Join Date: Aug 2005 Chapter/Region: RMIC Location: Longmont, CO Vehicle: 01 Z06	Well, I'm pretty sure I am not having voltage problems because my Hydra was not disconnecting, and I was getting an RPM reading, but I will try to boost start it with a charger before I replace the sensor. Thanks for the input!!!

03-05-2007, 05:11 PM	#12
SloRice Scooby Specialist Member#: 44351 Join Date: Sep 2003 Chapter/Region: MWSOC Location: Cincinnati, OH Vehicle: 2004 Mitsubishi Evo 701whp 9.91@146	Pull your plugs and make sure they aren't fouled. Who did you get your base map from? Are all the triggers set up correctly??

03-05-2007, 05:44 PM	#13
WhiteWoRX1 Scooby Newbie Member#: 92601 Join Date: Aug 2005 Chapter/Region: RMIC Location: Longmont, CO Vehicle: 01 Z06	Will do. I got the Hydra through World One. I think they gave the mods to Phil. I have the base map for the Element GT65, or some form of it. Can you give me some insight as to how to check if the triggers are set properly, or is that a call to Phil type question?

03-05-2007, 09:45 PM	#14
WhiteWoRX1 Scooby Newbie Member#: 92601 Join Date: Aug 2005 Chapter/Region: RMIC Location: Longmont, CO Vehicle: 01 Z06	Thanks Tim!!

03-06-2007, 11:57 AM	#15
WhiteWoRX1 Scooby Newbie Member#: 92601 Join Date: Aug 2005 Chapter/Region: RMIC Location: Longmont, CO Vehicle: 01 Z06	Come to find out, my cam position sensor was good. Phil clarified the results a little bit for me. The top graph is normal for an STi. The top green line is the signal for the crank position sensor, and the yellow line is the signal for the cam position sensor. The yellow line for an STi should show the 3 waves because of the 3 reference points on the gear. The middle graph is normal for a WRX. You should only see 2, longer duration waves for a WRX because it only has 2 reference points on the gear. And the bottom graph is bad for both STi and WRX. I just wanted to post this to clear things up a bit. When I did my test I saw the middle graph and thought my sensor was bad. It would have been if I had an STi. Hopefully the dealership will take a return on the sensor.

04-01-2007, 05:00 PM	#16
kay95 Scooby Specialist Member#: 45494 Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: glen rock, pa Vehicle: 95 impreza L awd green	What are the trigger wheels? I thought the WRX and STI had the same setup? I thought they had a 24-2-2-2 wheel on the crank.

04-08-2007, 01:04 PM	#18
3barboost Scooby Newbie Member#: 73609 Join Date: Nov 2004 Chapter/Region: International Location: Johannesburg South Africa Vehicle: 2002 wrx White	anyone got pics of these different pickups ? I thought the cam pickups on wrx / sti were the same (on the back of them) anyone got a picture ? showing the differences ?

04-08-2007, 03:08 PM	#19
Element Tuning Former Vendor Member#: 54918 Join Date: Feb 2004 Chapter/Region: MAIC Location: Gaithersburg, MD Vehicle: 673 WHP Element Tuning Pro Comp Engine	No up until the 06 WRX the cam pick up has been on the cam sprocket not the cam itself as in the STI. Thanks, Phil www.elementtuning.com

04-17-2007, 02:38 PM	#20
bboy Scooby Specialist Member#: 56468 Join Date: Mar 2004 Chapter/Region: NWIC Location: Seattle, WA Vehicle: 04 Improved STI Dirty White	That's my "no signal" graph up there. This was an installation problem. The EBC was tapped into the cam sensor signal and was sucking it off so that the Hydra never received it. Strangely the car does start even without the sync, but it's very difficult, runs horribly and of course no AVCS.