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Old 02-19-2018, 01:03 AM   #101
JustyWRC
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Originally Posted by RealDealTarheel View Post
So you would pay, money, for an STI with a CVT? I get that manuals are dying, and am okay with something like a DCT for an STI. CVT? Not as I see things now. Subaru would have to really make this CVT something magical for me to even go give it a test drive. I fairly imagine that a large percentage of the target demographic for the STI feels the same way. I could see it being the laughing stock of the segment.

I would easily(and probably will be) get an STI with a CVT IF it were rated at the same power. I love the way the HTCVT drives that much. For me it's not the "engagement", as those on here describe, I seek in driving. I started off with manuals. Of the 15 Subaru's I've owned, that I drove/drive, only 2 have been autos. My DD is a '06 Forester 5MT. For me, it's just the drive. I feel plenty "in control" of an auto. And the HTCVT in S# mode, responds like a manual when "played" with(I think the paddle shifters are a "toy" in spirited driving; but, I digress, I probably didn't give it "enough" time). There is no "getting it right" on a test drive and there is no way to convince the disbelievers otherwise. I personally don't hold it against them. Yes, there have been some that tried it and hated it. I personally think, with no proof to submit, that those people went in with a negative attitude about it that never allowed them to learn it right. Once you dislike something, that's pretty much it.


With an internal letter to dealers talking about the future, they "mentioned" they would like STI to be back on top. Now, don't go reading that as some confirmed piece of info. That's pretty much all that was mentioned. And with that, your last sentence, I believe they would not let happen. Perhaps that's why the STI's engine is still the EJ. They want to get this next one "right". Enough people on here believe that every one of them blow up stock. I'd want them to make sure the next one is as trouble free as possible. Of course I AM upset as well that we ARE still on the EJ; but, what can one do? Not buy their product "forcing" them to rush something to market before it's ready? No thanks.
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Old 02-19-2018, 01:13 AM   #102
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I like the Impreza CVT. I've never really owned a manual. Though I think I'd thoroughly enjoy manual transmission, its not something I would like to row in Los Angeles traffic. Anyway, if they came out with a Levorg Wagon with 250hp or there abouts and the only transmission was the CVT, I'd buy it. That's what the forester XT is now.

Yes the CVT whines a lot. Especially if you down shift for engine braking. But in manual mode gear changes are right quick.

So this Geneva thing, is just for Europeans no?
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Old 02-19-2018, 03:06 AM   #103
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I would easily(and probably will be) get an STI with a CVT IF it were rated at the same power. I love the way the HTCVT drives that much. For me it's not the "engagement", as those on here describe, I seek in driving. I started off with manuals. Of the 15 Subaru's I've owned, that I drove/drive, only 2 have been autos. My DD is a '06 Forester 5MT. For me, it's just the drive. I feel plenty "in control" of an auto. And the HTCVT in S# mode, responds like a manual when "played" with(I think the paddle shifters are a "toy" in spirited driving; but, I digress, I probably didn't give it "enough" time). There is no "getting it right" on a test drive and there is no way to convince the disbelievers otherwise. I personally don't hold it against them. Yes, there have been some that tried it and hated it. I personally think, with no proof to submit, that those people went in with a negative attitude about it that never allowed them to learn it right. Once you dislike something, that's pretty much it.


With an internal letter to dealers talking about the future, they "mentioned" they would like STI to be back on top. Now, don't go reading that as some confirmed piece of info. That's pretty much all that was mentioned. And with that, your last sentence, I believe they would not let happen. Perhaps that's why the STI's engine is still the EJ. They want to get this next one "right". Enough people on here believe that every one of them blow up stock. I'd want them to make sure the next one is as trouble free as possible. Of course I AM upset as well that we ARE still on the EJ; but, what can one do? Not buy their product "forcing" them to rush something to market before it's ready? No thanks.
You don't get a second chance at a first impression though. If the CVT isn't good enough to convince people on their first dance that falls on either the transmission itself or Subaru. I tend to put that blames squarely on Subaru...for using a CVT.

Not buy the product is all anyone can do. I mean it's counter productive to reward a manufacturer for providing a car with a dated power plant that no one seems to want isn't it? I make no secret of it here that the STI was my last choice because of the engine and body style, and I made it a point to put that in my comments on the survey when I bought it. As a person who's driven Subaru's exclusively since 2006 I don't want them to do poorly, but sweet mercy, throw me a friggen bone here.
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Old 02-19-2018, 04:08 AM   #104
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That writing has been on the wall so long it has etched the stone.

The continuing threads, within the threads, pursuing the vanishing manual transmission only serve to highlight their futile dreams of yesterday.

Today's Subaru CVT vehicles are far safer, more fuel efficient, better handling, and yes, faster, than most muscle cars of yesterday.

Can't live without a manual gearbox? Ride a motorcycle. All the engagement and adrenaline you can handle... and more.
Better handling? I didnít know a crappy rubber band transmission - better handling

Guess which transmission is less expensive both in msrp, and to replace? Which is the easiest to work on? Sorry the manual is simpler, less expensive, easier to work on, cheaper to service or replace.

Volkswagen offers a manual R, and GTI. Ford offers a manual RS and ST.
WRX and STI still have manual transmissions. CTR is manual too. My fun car is a manual and a MY2017. Doesnít sound like the writing is on the wall for this class of car.

I own a few sportbikes. They are all manual too.

Hey I understand why you want a CVT. In a toaster CUV, few would want a manual. Less work to drive so you can save your energy for the bingo game
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Old 02-19-2018, 10:08 AM   #105
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You don't get a second chance at a first impression though. If the CVT isn't good enough to convince people on their first dance that falls on either the transmission itself or Subaru. I tend to put that blames squarely on Subaru...for using a CVT.

Not buy the product is all anyone can do. I mean it's counter productive to reward a manufacturer for providing a car with a dated power plant that no one seems to want isn't it? I make no secret of it here that the STI was my last choice because of the engine and body style, and I made it a point to put that in my comments on the survey when I bought it. As a person who's driven Subaru's exclusively since 2006 I don't want them to do poorly, but sweet mercy, throw me a friggen bone here.

Not generally, I agree. That's why I can't hold it against those people. You have to be happy with the big purchase you're about to make.

I have, however, been on enough test drives with customers to see when they are TRYING to dislike something. Whatever it may be. And there's not much to do to counter it. I just try and flush them as quick as I can, for both our sakes.

If no one seems to want it, why is it still selling in good numbers? Sure, they are dropping now; but, it's still more than when it first came out.
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Old 02-19-2018, 12:40 PM   #106
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Not generally, I agree. That's why I can't hold it against those people. You have to be happy with the big purchase you're about to make.

I have, however, been on enough test drives with customers to see when they are TRYING to dislike something. Whatever it may be. And there's not much to do to counter it. I just try and flush them as quick as I can, for both our sakes.

If no one seems to want it, why is it still selling in good numbers? Sure, they are dropping now; but, it's still more than when it first came out.
Why is the STI still selling well? $10k mark ups on the Focus RS, CTR's that have sold for $50k, and I can't even select 2018 as an option for the Golf R on VW's web site. Couple that with the more reasonable price of a non Limited STI and it's going to do better than otherwise.
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Old 02-19-2018, 04:10 PM   #107
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I just realized several car review sites are testing the new accord and camry at faster 0-60 than the sti and wrx... And they are FWD, automatic and in some cases less expensive and heavier and much more comfortable and closer to luxury!

If the new subaru cars dont step it up quick they are going to be the new Corolla S in town.. sporty looking but slow..and now expensive. No longer the budget sports car that obliterates 99% of the cars on the road.
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Old 02-19-2018, 04:13 PM   #108
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Oh please. Accord and Camry are mid-size. They need to have some power. Don't exaggerate so much.

The WRX will forever outrun any Corolla S.
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Old 02-19-2018, 04:16 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by JustyWRC View Post
I would easily(and probably will be) get an STI with a CVT IF it were rated at the same power. I love the way the HTCVT drives that much. For me it's not the "engagement", as those on here describe, I seek in driving. I started off with manuals. Of the 15 Subaru's I've owned, that I drove/drive, only 2 have been autos. My DD is a '06 Forester 5MT. For me, it's just the drive. I feel plenty "in control" of an auto. And the HTCVT in S# mode, responds like a manual when "played" with(I think the paddle shifters are a "toy" in spirited driving; but, I digress, I probably didn't give it "enough" time). There is no "getting it right" on a test drive and there is no way to convince the disbelievers otherwise. I personally don't hold it against them. Yes, there have been some that tried it and hated it. I personally think, with no proof to submit, that those people went in with a negative attitude about it that never allowed them to learn it right. Once you dislike something, that's pretty much it.


With an internal letter to dealers talking about the future, they "mentioned" they would like STI to be back on top. Now, don't go reading that as some confirmed piece of info. That's pretty much all that was mentioned. And with that, your last sentence, I believe they would not let happen. Perhaps that's why the STI's engine is still the EJ. They want to get this next one "right". Enough people on here believe that every one of them blow up stock. I'd want them to make sure the next one is as trouble free as possible. Of course I AM upset as well that we ARE still on the EJ; but, what can one do? Not buy their product "forcing" them to rush something to market before it's ready? No thanks.
Pre is the epitome why it's going to take a while for a CVT to be taken seriously in a performance vehicle.

He has preconceived notions about what a CVT is, he has preconceived notions about what is required for a performance car, he is unwilling to expand his mind and learn new things.

He will literally never drive a performance car with a CVT whether it's better or not. In essence, he's willing to not only make life harder for himself, but drive a lesser performance vehicle because he's too proud to admit that he was wrong.
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Old 02-19-2018, 04:21 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by Obviously Tyler View Post
Oh please. Accord and Camry are mid-size. They need to have some power. Don't exaggerate so much.

The WRX will forever outrun any Corolla S.
The comparison to a Corolla S is it looking sporty on the outside but not matching that level of sport under the hood.
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Old 02-19-2018, 04:38 PM   #111
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Pre is the epitome why it's going to take a while for a CVT to be taken seriously in a performance vehicle.

He has preconceived notions about what a CVT is, he has preconceived notions about what is required for a performance car, he is unwilling to expand his mind and learn new things.

He will literally never drive a performance car with a CVT whether it's better or not. In essence, he's willing to not only make life harder for himself, but drive a lesser performance vehicle because he's too proud to admit that he was wrong.
It takes a long time to overcome a negative image. Case in point: Kia/Hyundai. They've come a long way up but they still don't get a look from a lot of buyers due to the perception they are cheap, unreliable and generally of poor quality.

Ultimately it's going to be up to the manufacturers to prove their product is worth the consumers time. Like what Ford did with the 3.5l Ecoboost V6. Man they abused that thing to the ends of the earth, and demonstrated the engine could take it, all while returning such good fuel economy it threw the fuel requirement calculations for that Baja team off. If Subaru or any other manufacturer wants to make the case for CVT that's how to go about it. The proof is in the pudding, and I haven't seen any pudding.
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Old 02-19-2018, 05:12 PM   #112
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The proof is in the pudding, and I haven't seen any pudding.
Then you haven't been looking.
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Old 02-19-2018, 05:23 PM   #113
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Then you haven't been looking.
Sure haven't, no one uses them for anything I look at, show me some really good pudding. Which manufacturer puts CVT's in their Ring cars? Which one puts them in the cars they back for rally? Which Isle of Man attempt was done with a CVT? Can I find a video of Flat Bill Billy with their CVT equipped sports car doing pulls with 500+wtq? Speaking of flat bills, what transmission does the Hoonigan himself use? What about drag cars? Can you point to one using a CVT? A fast one, something running 9's.

If it's there I'm open to seeing it, but I don't think it is. The above is not to say that CVT's don't have any place, and are unusable, but I haven't seen anything like what Ford has done where a manufacturer has demonstrated the CVT's are up to the task.
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Old 02-19-2018, 05:36 PM   #114
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He will literally never drive a performance car with a CVT whether it's better or not. In essence, he's willing to not only make life harder for himself, but drive a lesser performance vehicle because he's too proud to admit that he was wrong.
Since I'm in the same boat as Pre, I'll take the time to highlight two words in your post, and let you reflect on what they mean. They're based on one individual's predilection. What you consider "better" and "superior" are drastically different than someone else. For example, someone who views a car as an appliance would think you're being quite silly to purchase anything other than a nissan versa - it gets the same job done cheap, and with better gas mileage. But that's not what choice is all about. Trying to impose your own personal opinions on someone else is... arrogant? ignorant? domineering? yes. all of those things.

The cvt is a great transmission. Our outback has it, and I am absolutely in love with it in that vehicle. If I can't control the gear shifts, it's great that there are no gears. It never hunts. It is fast to respond, and if I want it to be more responsive, I can just use the paddle shifters. And honestly I think the car is ultimately faster than what it would be with a traditional automatic. Really wish they'd ditch the stupid "simulated gears" and just own what the CVT is.

There is no reason not to offer a CVT STI, imo, as long as it can perform at "STI level". That means it needs to not be torque limited period. As in, it can hold every ounce of torque that the motor puts out, at every single vehicle speed and engine RPM. It also needs to be able to perform on a track without overheating every 2 laps, or else the car loses a lot of what makes it an attractive car - it's over-engineered for daily driving because it's pretty much a track-ready street car. The wrx is there to fill the non-track duties.
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Old 02-19-2018, 05:40 PM   #115
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Why is the STI still selling well? $10k mark ups on the Focus RS, CTR's that have sold for $50k, and I can't even select 2018 as an option for the Golf R on VW's web site. Couple that with the more reasonable price of a non Limited STI and it's going to do better than otherwise.
It was selling well long before those cars came out. I will agree, that it would be interesting to see the sales competition had those other makes actually built those cars instead of limiting them. Only true thing we have to go by is how much better the STi sold over the EVO, with the EVO supposedly being the much better car....
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Old 02-19-2018, 05:45 PM   #116
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I was in a evo 10 on a circuit with double clutch. 3 hot laps and the transmission lamps were on. Into the pita with it.
One of the nice things about Subaru is that they are stubborn. They bite in something and won't let go. They will make it better every time.
I worked in a Mazda garage. If you look in the entertainment dep Subaru was way behind. Mazda just purchases a system and it does not evolve. Subarus system now is way more advanced.
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Old 02-19-2018, 05:52 PM   #117
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Since I'm in the same boat as Pre, I'll take the time to highlight two words in your post, and let you reflect on what they mean. They're based on one individual's predilection. What you consider "better" and "superior" are drastically different than someone else. For example, someone who views a car as an appliance would think you're being quite silly to purchase anything other than a nissan versa - it gets the same job done cheap, and with better gas mileage. But that's not what choice is all about. Trying to inflict your own personal opinions on someone else is... arrogant? ignorant? domineering? yes. all of those things.

The cvt is a great transmission. Our outback has it, and I am absolutely in love with it in that vehicle. If I can't control the gear shifts, it's great that there are no gears. It never hunts. It is fast to respond, and if I want it to be more responsive, I can just use the paddle shifters. And honestly I think the car is ultimately faster than what it would be with a traditional automatic. Really wish they'd ditch the stupid "simulated gears" and just own what the CVT is.

There is no reason not to offer a CVT STI, imo, as long as it can perform at "STI level". That means it needs to not be torque limited period. As in, it can hold every ounce of torque that the motor puts out, at every single vehicle speed and engine RPM. It also needs to be able to perform on a track without overheating every 2 laps, or else the car loses a lot of what makes it an attractive car - it's over-engineered for daily driving because it's pretty much a track-ready street car. The wrx is there to fill the non-track duties.
If they offered a CVT STI, it would probably outsell the MT version. As I understand, the CVT WRX performs very well, as does the Forester XT. And not that much slower than the higher hp current STI. A CVT STI might even beat the MT. I don't see why it wouldn't as it is more efficient and the computer is probably better at selecting the best torque/rpm for a given speed at full power.

I have the 2018 Crosstrek with the CVT, and it sure feels like a lot more than 154 hp, and is way more responsive than my older Impreza with the AT 175 hp 2.5 ( my son still has that one). All the whining and sniveling about CVTs must be people that never owned one... Because they sure don't seem to know what they are talking about, when they mention revving, lag response, noise, etc., exactly the opposite in reality. I think some people just can't handle change, even if it is far better, and stares them right in the face.
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Old 02-19-2018, 06:01 PM   #118
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It was selling well long before those cars came out. I will agree, that it would be interesting to see the sales competition had those other makes actually built those cars instead of limiting them. Only true thing we have to go by is how much better the STi sold over the EVO, with the EVO supposedly being the much better car....
Weren't Evo's more expensive? I think going back that far you'd have to look at production numbers and price tag to explain that. Also, the Evo was always the easiest to mod, but it was more raw. I can for sure say that the STI is the better daily driver of the two performance cars in my drive way. They both get their tails beat by an 11 year old Outback for DD duties though.

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Old 02-19-2018, 06:13 PM   #119
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Since I'm in the same boat as Pre, I'll take the time to highlight two words in your post, and let you reflect on what they mean. They're based on one individual's predilection. What you consider "better" and "superior" are drastically different than someone else. For example, someone who views a car as an appliance would think you're being quite silly to purchase anything other than a nissan versa - it gets the same job done cheap, and with better gas mileage. But that's not what choice is all about. Trying to impose your own personal opinions on someone else is... arrogant? ignorant? domineering? yes. all of those things.
I specifically stated "Performance Vehicle".

wikipedia does a pretty good job of defining a performance vehicle:
Quote:
A performance car is an automobile that is designed and constructed specifically for speed. The design and construction of a performance car involves not only providing a capable power train but also providing the handling and braking systems to support it.
Not only does a performance vehicle have a definition, but 'better' and 'superior' can clearly be measured and are not opinion.

so:
if a performance vehicle with a manual transmission goes around a track at say 1:45
then say the same performance vehicle with a CVT goes aroudn the same track at say 1:30

the CVT version of that performance vehicle is demonstrably better by the definition of the word performance vehicle.

if you and pre want something other than a performance vehicle, something that is more about driving feel, well that is defined absolutely through opinion, and get whatever transmission equates to your idea of better feel, but pre specifically is arguing against the CVT being a performance transmission, so I don't think you are in the same boat as him at all, at least I hope not.

overheating transmission is something different and hopefully future iterations will have transcoolers installed to keep temps down. The technology is still young and evolving.
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Old 02-19-2018, 06:16 PM   #120
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Pre is the epitome why it's going to take a while for a CVT to be taken seriously in a performance vehicle.

He has preconceived notions about what a CVT is, he has preconceived notions about what is required for a performance car, he is unwilling to expand his mind and learn new things.

He will literally never drive a performance car with a CVT whether it's better or not. In essence, he's willing to not only make life harder for himself, but drive a lesser performance vehicle because he's too proud to admit that he was wrong.
Negative, negative, negative. And I donít care for your poor assumptions either, nor your ill notions. Expand my mind with new things? Really?
I guess daily driving an electric car for 4 years isnít new things, nor the 35 solar panels on my house

Iíve driven them, Subaruís (Impreza, Outback) and other makes with CVTís. I still prefer a manual transmission. The manual is simpler, more cost effective, and more serviceable. A manual is also more engaging which is the main thing to me. Hell its why E. nick on here ordered a GT3 manual over a PDK. If I could afford one I would have done the same as him, 100.

And Iíve driven all sorts of cars that you probably havenít with DCTís, DSGís, etc. A McLaren, several R35ís, a Cayman, quite a number of cars actually, oh a Golf R as well. Iíll stick take the manual. Unless you are on track getting paid for lap times the shifting speed difference is completely irrelevant. What you do not understand is driving engagement. Maybe it is not important to you, but it is to others. Your argument is baseless and stupid.
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Old 02-19-2018, 06:19 PM   #121
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If they offered a CVT STI, it would probably outsell the MT version. As I understand, the CVT WRX performs very well, as does the Forester XT. And not that much slower than the higher hp current STI. A CVT STI might even beat the MT. I don't see why it wouldn't as it is more efficient and the computer is probably better at selecting the best torque/rpm for a given speed at full power.
I bet it would outsell the manual, but only because they'd be sold to a different demographic than the current STI buyer. About performance, the manual wrx is faster than the cvt... I think the transmission has the potential to be faster, but isn't there yet.

I'm waiting for Golf R's to finally get let out of their hold in port so I can go buy a manual Golf R. It's slower than the DCT... and I don't care. The DCT is the "superior" transmission, but I don't want it. I drive in stop-and-go traffic (Seattle was recently ranked by Tom-Tom as the second worst city in the nation). And I still want a manual transmission. And unlike others who want to say it's about nostalgia, or not wanting to let go of the past, that's bull****. I'm "young". I learned to drive on an automatic and drove one for 6 years. But my mechanical mindset drives me towards a manual transmission. I like it.
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Old 02-19-2018, 06:30 PM   #122
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Not only does a performance vehicle have a definition, but 'better' and 'superior' can clearly be measured and are not opinion.
I still respectfully disagree with your statement. A performance car is not only defined by measurable metrics. After all, why would you buy a 40k STI when you could buy a mustang Gt which is likely faster in almost all metrics, and likely cheaper as well? Everyone has preferences, and every car has attributes, that aren't measurable in numbers.
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Old 02-19-2018, 06:30 PM   #123
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But my mechanical mindset drives me towards a manual transmission. I like it.
OK, that I understand. And someone else just said they prefer the driver engagement. But that is a personal choice. Some (like me) just want the performance without the shifting hassle, especially in stop and go traffic. With a CVT and EyeSight, you set the ACC, and it does it all for you. And it does a much better job of keeping close to the car in front (depending on your setting) than you can, so that jerks can't cut you off. Can't do that with an MT very easily...

So instead of denigrating CVTs why don't MT enthusiasts just say they prefer an MT for the driving experience. At least then they wouldn't sound like old wannabe boy racers.
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Old 02-19-2018, 10:01 PM   #124
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Weren't Evo's more expensive? I think going back that far you'd have to look at production numbers and price tag to explain that. Also, the Evo was always the easiest to mod, but it was more raw. I can for sure say that the STI is the better daily driver of the two performance cars in my drive way. They both get their tails beat by an 11 year old Outback for DD duties though.
Depends. They had a more expensive version, a version pretty much the same, and they had a slightly cheaper stripper model. They gave more options than the STi and it still didn't bring in the customers.

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I bet it would outsell the manual, but only because they'd be sold to a different demographic than the current STI buyer. About performance, the manual wrx is faster than the cvt... I think the transmission has the potential to be faster, but isn't there yet.

I'm waiting for Golf R's to finally get let out of their hold in port so I can go buy a manual Golf R. It's slower than the DCT... and I don't care. The DCT is the "superior" transmission, but I don't want it. I drive in stop-and-go traffic (Seattle was recently ranked by Tom-Tom as the second worst city in the nation). And I still want a manual transmission. And unlike others who want to say it's about nostalgia, or not wanting to let go of the past, that's bull****. I'm "young". I learned to drive on an automatic and drove one for 6 years. But my mechanical mindset drives me towards a manual transmission. I like it.

Quit magazine racing. Most every video of a street race I've seen has the CVT beating the MT. Very few people track their cars and even fewer drive in the manner those mags get those numbers that are BARELY faster than the CVT.
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Old 02-19-2018, 10:20 PM   #125
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Quit magazine racing. Most every video of a street race I've seen has the CVT beating the MT. Very few people track their cars and even fewer drive in the manner those mags get those numbers that are BARELY faster than the CVT.
Quit cherry picking comments.

Edit... read my other posts. I'm I support of a CVT, provided Subaru can up their game. Other automatic offerings are undoubtedly faster than their manual counterparts, and in this segment (Golf R DCT is the only one I can think of) track ready. The sti is a track ready street car. Any auto they come out with needs to be track ready. I think it's telling that on that one perhaps track ready cvt wrx in Japan, they called it a wrx tuned by sti, not giving it the sti name.

Btw, why are the discussions in this thread and the sti thread seemingly backwards? Talking about utility in a sedan thread, and transmission in a levorg concept thread...

Last edited by dwf137; 02-19-2018 at 11:20 PM.
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