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Old 11-11-2018, 04:42 PM   #1051
elirentz
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Originally Posted by SoapBox View Post
I'm probably the minority, but what was Max doing? Ocon has every right to try and make his move stick, just as he does every damn race.

He had no reason to turn down like that
I agree with you. Hamilton said he would've handled it differently too. Max had much more to loose and would have done the same thing if roles were reversed.
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Old 11-11-2018, 07:07 PM   #1052
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Anyone see the clip of Max pushing Ocon in the weigh room? I kept hoping Ocon would have enough and belt him.
like father like son

https://twitter.com/verstappen/status/1061693118129426432
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Old 11-11-2018, 07:31 PM   #1053
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Oh well the result:

Pos Driver Team
1 Hamilton Mercedes
2 Verstappen Red Bull
3 Raikkonen Ferrari
4 Ricciardo Red Bull
5 Bottas Mercedes
6 Vettel Ferrari
7 Leclerc Sauber
8 Grosjean Haas
9 Magnussen Haas
10 Perez Force India
11 Hartley Toro Rosso
12 Sainz Renault
13 Gasly Toro Rosso
14 Vandoorne McLaren
15 Ocon Force India
16 Sirotkin Williams
17 Alonso McLaren
18 Stroll Williams
Hulkenberg Renault
Ericsson Sauber

Looks like Max has to do public service:

https://www.pitpass.com/63502/Versta...ing-Ocon-clash

Having reviewed video evidence from the FIA's CCTV Cameras and heard from Verstappen and Ocon, the stewards ruled that the Red Bull driver entered the FIA Weigh Bridge Garage, proceeded directly to Ocon and following a few words, started an altercation, pushing or hitting Ocon forcefully several times in the chest.
The stewards held a hearing, in which both drivers acted appropriately and cooperated with the stewards.
The stewards understood from Verstappen that he was extremely upset by the incident on track during the race and accepted his explanation that it was not his original intent to strike Ocon, but that he was "triggered" and this caused him to lose his temper.
While sympathetic to Verstappen's passion, the stewards determined that it is the obligation of sportsmen at this level to act appropriately and as role models to other drivers at all levels and found that Verstappen failed in this respect.
The stewards have therefore ordered that Verstappen is required to perform two days of public service at the direction of the FIA within six months of the incident.
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Old 11-12-2018, 02:45 PM   #1054
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Old 11-12-2018, 03:08 PM   #1055
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Yeah, after seeing that video, he should've been DSQ'd or suspended from the next race.

Public service? c'mon.
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Old 11-12-2018, 04:57 PM   #1056
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More than what he got, that's for sure.
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Old 11-12-2018, 05:11 PM   #1057
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Not even talking about how Max conducted himself during the weigh-in, I was annoyed to hear Christian Horner talk about Force India in such a way to suggest that they are a throw-away team. In his interviews after the race, it sounded like he was most put off by the fact that it was a "(gasp) Force India" that was trying to race with him. That wasn't cool, neither was the suggestion that Ocon was lucky to get away with only getting pushed.

So the whole incident, from management to driver, seemed to be handled poorly on teh Red Bull side.
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Old 11-12-2018, 05:36 PM   #1058
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Originally Posted by elirentz View Post
I agree with you. Hamilton said he would've handled it differently too. Max had much more to loose and would have done the same thing if roles were reversed.
Lewis would be having a FIT if he was leading a race and got HIT by a lapped car and lost a race because of it. No way he would be cool about it.
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Old 11-12-2018, 05:55 PM   #1059
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Originally Posted by SoapBox View Post
I'm probably the minority, but what was Max doing? Ocon has every right to try and make his move stick, just as he does every damn race.

He had no reason to turn down like that
And just like Lewis told him post-race, he IS allowed to unlap himself, and on fresh tires he WAS faster.
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Old 11-12-2018, 06:53 PM   #1060
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Quote:
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Lewis would be having a FIT if he was leading a race and got HIT by a lapped car and lost a race because of it. No way he would be cool about it.
I took it as he would have not tried to take that corner the same as in he would have allowed room. But yes he would be just as pissed as would most anyone about to win an F1 race.
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Old 11-12-2018, 08:19 PM   #1061
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I took it as he would have not tried to take that corner the same as in he would have allowed room. But yes he would be just as pissed as would most anyone about to win an F1 race.
Yeah I took it as he wouldn't have fought the car unlapping itself. I'm sure he'd be pissed but I don't see him responding quite like Max did.
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Old 11-12-2018, 09:35 PM   #1062
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Ocon could've easily tried to unlapped himself at turn 4 rather than turn 2.
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Old 11-12-2018, 11:03 PM   #1063
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Ocon could've easily tried to unlapped himself at turn 4 rather than turn 2.
By the same token, Max could've easily said "I'm not racing this guy he's a lap back. I'm racing Hamilton behind me. I should just let him go and race my race."

But this is Max. "I know I'm losing time to Vettel but I really don't care"

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/formula-...grily-italian/

Look familiar?
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Old 11-13-2018, 10:24 AM   #1064
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Ocon. Mercedes driver, right?
Good soldier.
Ok, Pelican.
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Old 11-13-2018, 10:31 AM   #1065
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Lewis would be having a FIT if he was leading a race and got HIT by a lapped car and lost a race because of it. No way he would be cool about it.
He threw a fit in qualy when he almost hit the Williams.
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Old 11-14-2018, 10:02 AM   #1066
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Here's a link to a retelling of the 1993 Japanese GP incident where Senna punched Eddie Irvine.
http://www.espn.com/f1/story/_/id/25...d-eddie-irvine
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Old 11-14-2018, 05:48 PM   #1067
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Back to the Max/Ocon debate... The ESPN link has a bunch of articles where people are talking about how Ocon shouldn't have been racing with the lead car. That's exactly the problem with F1. When people talk about how F1 is a parade, part of that is that nobody races the lead car. If you refer to any other racing series, people fight to not get lapped. Even in Nascar, the understanding is that if the leader gets around to lapping cars, he's going to have a really hard time passing everyone again as they all fight to stay on the lead lap. Which closes the gap between the top positions, and you have a race at the lead again. And if backmarker teams are allowed to race, then they would become relevant to the championship. It wouldn't just be a championship between two teams. I guess this all stems from the points only paying out to P10. If they paid out to P20, we'd see these changes. Meh, my two cents.
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Old 11-14-2018, 06:32 PM   #1068
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For me the issue is that I donít know that Ocon would have been able to stay ahead of Max even if he had gotten by cleanly. It certainly isnít like Ocon was going to walk away from Max once he got around.

If one of the top three teams somehow gets a lap down and is working back through the field and unlapping themselves with genuine pace, then it makes sense. I just donít see how it would have been feasible for the FI to stay ahead of the Red Bull for any length of time if Ocon had been able to unlap himself successfully
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Old 11-15-2018, 10:41 AM   #1069
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Originally Posted by lil'redwagon View Post
Back to the Max/Ocon debate... The ESPN link has a bunch of articles where people are talking about how Ocon shouldn't have been racing with the lead car. That's exactly the problem with F1. When people talk about how F1 is a parade, part of that is that nobody races the lead car. If you refer to any other racing series, people fight to not get lapped. Even in Nascar, the understanding is that if the leader gets around to lapping cars, he's going to have a really hard time passing everyone again as they all fight to stay on the lead lap. Which closes the gap between the top positions, and you have a race at the lead again. And if backmarker teams are allowed to race, then they would become relevant to the championship. It wouldn't just be a championship between two teams. I guess this all stems from the points only paying out to P10. If they paid out to P20, we'd see these changes. Meh, my two cents.


The problem with this, is when you get a group of say 1st-3rd in a close race. Combining that with a back marker trying to block them will cause a giant mess and destroy an awesome race. The lapped car isnít relevant to the race anymore and they need to stay out of the way. Ocon had no business being as aggressive as he was into turn 1. Itís his job to concede to the lead car, or unlap himself in an appropriate place that wonít cause an issue.

As soon as Max stuck it into turn 1 he was ahead of Ocon and had the position, at this point Ocon needed to back out and concede the position. His failure to do this is why he got a much deserved penalty.
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Old 11-15-2018, 11:12 AM   #1070
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Why do we need a back marker? Every time 1st-3rd in a race are close, the 2nd rank on the team blocks the rest anyhow.
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Old 11-15-2018, 05:05 PM   #1071
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The lapped car isnít relevant to the race anymore and they need to stay out of the way. Ocon had no business being as aggressive as he was into turn 1. Itís his job to concede to the lead car, or unlap himself in an appropriate place that wonít cause an issue.
Exactly my thought. Although Ocon was was on Fresh Supersoft he couldve unlapped himself with a third of race left to finish.

Max took 2nd in the race, but learned a valuable lesson: Always check your mirrors.
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Old 11-15-2018, 09:31 PM   #1072
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Max shouldn't have raced Ocon at that corner and should have just let him go. Ocon's a back marker trying to unlap himself, no harm no foul. A true champion would have known this.

The funny thing is, Max has been crashing into everybody since he arrived in F1 and he defends it to no end. Now he expects other drivers to move out of his way. Yeah right. I'm happy to see him get taken out.
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Old 11-16-2018, 02:07 PM   #1073
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Max shouldn't have raced Ocon at that corner and should have just let him go. Ocon's a back marker trying to unlap himself, no harm no foul. A true champion would have known this.

The funny thing is, Max has been crashing into everybody since he arrived in F1 and he defends it to no end. Now he expects other drivers to move out of his way. Yeah right. I'm happy to see him get taken out.


A point nobody has mentioned.......the tactical importance of Max staying ahead of Ocon through turn 1.

By getting ahead of Ocon he gives Hamilton a hurdle that will hold him up. On the flip side if he stays behind Ocon, the gap between himself and Hamilton gets smaller.

Combine this with drivers having an understanding that lapped cars wonít try and race the lead car or interfere with their race. Sorry but Ocon is a moron. Iíve given Max tons of criticism over his past mistakes, but this is all on Ocon.
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Old 11-16-2018, 02:29 PM   #1074
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The difference in experience was instantly apparent already in the cool down room. "You had more to lose than he did." - Hamilton
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Old 11-17-2018, 01:21 AM   #1075
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A point nobody has mentioned.......the tactical importance of Max staying ahead of Ocon through turn 1.

By getting ahead of Ocon he gives Hamilton a hurdle that will hold him up. On the flip side if he stays behind Ocon, the gap between himself and Hamilton gets smaller.

Combine this with drivers having an understanding that lapped cars wonít try and race the lead car or interfere with their race. Sorry but Ocon is a moron. Iíve given Max tons of criticism over his past mistakes, but this is all on Ocon.
So you're not going to criticize this mistake?
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