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Old 02-20-2019, 12:14 PM   #1
sub_sifu
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Default how to diagnose timing failure (pics)

Hi all, could use a hand. A friend was driving his 2005 WRX and heard strange noises at low speed in neighborhood, car stalled and wouldn't start at stop sign. Towed it to mechanic who said "locked motor and timing failure"


The engine turns with socket wrench. The belt is on tight, bu frayed on the outer edge and looks like it "tried" slipping off, rubbing through the timing cover. (picture below)

It may have skipped timing. But, since it turns with a socket wrench and was shut off fast, Is there a chance it's OK with a new timing kit? Very tempted to try and start the car, but if somehow pistons/valves weren't miraculously already damaged, wouldn't that certainly damage them?

Other options are boroscope the internals or do a compression test. But before spending on towing and hundreds for any of this, figured I'd ask if anyone has some thoughts on best way to proceed.

Below shows how far off timing is. I put the single tick on right inlet cam at 12 o'clock position.


Right inlet manually rotated to ~12 oclock. All other cams referenced off this position.


Right exhaust off ~140 degrees:


Left exhaust and intake cam both equally off ~ 90 degrees



Reference image:
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Last edited by sub_sifu; 02-22-2019 at 02:09 PM.
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Old 02-20-2019, 12:44 PM   #2
Charlie-III
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I replied to your other post....here.....https://forums.nasioc.com/forums/sho....php?t=2132537

Us being able to actually SEE all the timing marks helps.
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Old 02-21-2019, 01:58 PM   #3
Llama92
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Yes when I first picked up my wrx a few weeks ago that was the first thing I did was change bely and tensions, I never trust someone's word on it unless they can prove it
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Old 02-21-2019, 04:41 PM   #4
wtdash
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Belt teeth are missing/ground down in those pics. I'd bet valves R bent.

New belt and do a Leak Down test to confirm.

DON'T try to start.
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Old 02-21-2019, 07:09 PM   #5
Charlie-III
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wtdash View Post
Belt teeth are missing/ground down in those pics. I'd bet valves R bent.

New belt and do a Leak Down test to confirm.

DON'T try to start.
Let the OP check static timng, if OK, then new full timing belt kit and,likely be done.
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Old 02-22-2019, 01:42 PM   #6
sub_sifu
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The good news is that results are definite. No confusion about marks kinda sorta lining up. The bad news is they are way off...not even close. I put up better (not perfect) pictures.

Has anyone ever seen a motor survive such a bad timing jump? Is it even worth slapping a belt on a leak testing?

Last edited by sub_sifu; 02-22-2019 at 02:15 PM.
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Old 02-23-2019, 09:08 AM   #7
TXwrxWagon
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"worth slapping" is a relative crap shoot based on how the owner might want to proceed.

If the owner plans on keeping the car and building "something" the timing set for a 2.0 and 2.5 are the same. So if you go to Rockauto for a timing set (Gates most popular kit $200 w/pump and all tensioners) its not "wasted $$" since even if you swap a used engine, you WILL put in the timing set along with fresh fluids and gaskets... Right? Thought so..

I'd say boroscope if you have free access, definitely worth pulling plugs and have a look.
Maybe hit up your NASIOC region and see if anyone has a "spare" or not as torn up belt and reset timing and check rotation and compression and leak down.

I'm more with Charlie-III if its rotating, then either the valves that did bend all bent in the up/collapsed position (99.99999999% impossible) or the owner got SUPER lucky.

~Rob
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Old 02-25-2019, 07:04 PM   #8
sub_sifu
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Weather was nice today. Pulled the radiator and harmonic balancer to really see what is going on. The hope was to try a new belt and start it, but I discovered the failure point: cogged pulley blew apart. A new timing kit has been ordered. We shall see if luck is on my side.



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Old 02-25-2019, 09:36 PM   #9
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I have a bugeye with the same failure, Iím waiting on fair weather to install the new belt and test my luck also. Subscribing to see how you do.
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Old 03-02-2019, 01:32 PM   #10
sub_sifu
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Just put a new timing belt on with a mechanics assistance, so pretty confident it's on right. Guess being able to turn crank by hand doesn't mean squat, because car won't start. I can rev it to keep it alive, but it runs rough.

Diagnosis: Bad news. Need to start looking for a motor
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Old 03-02-2019, 05:24 PM   #11
Charlie-III
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sub_sifu View Post
Just put a new timing belt on with a mechanics assistance, so pretty confident it's on right. Guess being able to turn crank by hand doesn't mean squat, because car won't start. I can rev it to keep it alive, but it runs rough.

Diagnosis: Bad news. Need to start looking for a motor


You say it won't start, then you say giving it gas keeps it running......

Double check timing marks.
If OK, then do a leakdown test.
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Old 03-03-2019, 06:07 PM   #12
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*car won't start on it's own. cranking the ignition causes it to sputter. With throttle it will sputter more, but dies. It doesn't id;e or run on its own.


I'll look at the belt position again and post something to see what you guys think.
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Old 03-05-2019, 04:13 PM   #13
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Looked at it again...they all look like they line up except this:




Is this acceptable deviation, or possible culprit of failure to start/run?
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Old 03-05-2019, 04:20 PM   #14
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By my eye, right side lines up:





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Old 03-05-2019, 10:24 PM   #15
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I'm no expert but I have done the job a handful of times. Those marks look OK to me. Minor variances in the belt tension and slack, and movement of the plastic covers will sometimes show < 1/2 tooth offset. As long as it's less than a tooth you're fine. Looks like most of those pulleys could turn 1/4 tooth to the right and they'd all look fine.

As others said, it's compression and/or leakdown time. You'll probably find a problem.
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Old 03-06-2019, 08:24 AM   #16
Charlie-III
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whitney32 View Post
I'm no expert but I have done the job a handful of times. Those marks look OK to me. Minor variances in the belt tension and slack, and movement of the plastic covers will sometimes show < 1/2 tooth offset. As long as it's less than a tooth you're fine. Looks like most of those pulleys could turn 1/4 tooth to the right and they'd all look fine.

As others said, it's compression and/or leakdown time. You'll probably find a problem.
Agreed, looks less than a tooth off.
As stated, compression and leakdown to find the issue or rule it out.
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Old 03-07-2019, 12:16 PM   #17
sub_sifu
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I'll do a compression test this weekend, will document findings.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie-III View Post
Agreed, looks less than a tooth off.
As stated, compression and leakdown to find the issue or rule it out.
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Old 03-21-2019, 08:53 AM   #18
sub_sifu
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Notice anything weird?




This, my friends is actually a saabaru, not a wrx! I tricked ya!!!!Like a wolf in sheep's clothing sucking up all this delicious nasioc knowledge, free!


Kiddin. Nasioc till I die.
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Old 03-21-2019, 11:25 PM   #19
D-Rodman
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A Saabaru ? What do you mean by that ? Iíve never seen one before. They must be very rare, is there a forum where I can learn more about them ?
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Old 06-13-2019, 07:19 AM   #20
sub_sifu
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Gentleman, I'm pleased to announce the saabaru is back on the road. Thank you all for the help. Still to come: picture of 3 bent intake valves.

In conclusion- due to the interference engine, any timing failure (even in the most benign situation) is bound to damage at least the valves.


I'm lucky it wasn't worse. I did the headgaskets, seals and timing, now car seems to be going good. Made some friends locally and learned a lot on the way. On to the next project!
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Old 06-15-2019, 07:36 PM   #21
D-Rodman
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Cleaning headlights ?
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Old 06-28-2019, 09:14 PM   #22
sub_sifu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Rodman View Post
Cleaning headlights ?
in good time my man. Ill surprise ya when I finish
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Old 06-28-2019, 09:16 PM   #23
sub_sifu
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Here are the 4 bent intake valves that got replaced. Be safe out there everyone, dont put off timing jobs!
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Old 06-29-2019, 09:44 PM   #24
D-Rodman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sub_sifu View Post
in good time my man. Ill surprise ya when I finish


Nice!

Itíll make your car look like new when your headlamps are clean. To prevent them from looking yellow again you can cover them with protective material or clear cost them. You wonít have to be a slave cleaning them constantly.
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