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06-22-2017, 01:14 PM | #501 | |
Scooby Specialist
Member#: 132389
Join Date: Nov 2006
Chapter/Region:
BAIC
Location: SF Bay Area
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Quote:
I don't know of any RWD competitor with 5 doors in this price range, not even 4 doors. So, we're basically back to AWD competitors. Then again, in that space, there are only 2 competitors with 5 doors until Subaru wakes the **** up . The sell is only hard for people that: - don't care about the number of doors or body style in general (as long as it goes like stink and hug corners like a mama bear hug her pup) - are laser focused on drivetrain layout (for any number of reasons) and don't believe in FWD for performance driving - can't stand the polarizing body work - won't get caught driving a Honda no matter what?
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06-22-2017, 02:43 PM | #502 | |
Scooby Specialist
Member#: 194216
Join Date: Nov 2008
Chapter/Region:
W. Canada
Location: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Vehicle:2022 Fast POS |
Quote:
4th Place: STI Pros: Solid performer when pushed. Cons: Face only a mother could love (they have used this already so recycling here). Dated engine, interior, and poor street ride. 3rd Place: Focus RS Pros: Great engine grunt. Lots of fun to drift around corners. Cons: Car is showing it's age and the street ride is unforgiveable. 2nd Place: Golf R Pros: Does everything well. Feels like the most expensive car in this company. Cons: Lacks the sporty edge of the other cars and the looks are timid in this group. 1st Place: Civic Type R Pros: All hail the new hot hatch king blah blah blah. Feels the best on the track. Perfect shifter. Surprisingly agreeable as a daily driver. Cons: Looks like a Civic Type R. Pushes the limits of FWD and sometimes exceeds them. The magazines are pretty predictable (usually always love the newcomer before piling on them a year later) so I feel I will be pretty close. |
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06-22-2017, 03:14 PM | #503 | |
Scooby Specialist
Member#: 379605
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Peabody, MA
Vehicle:2017 Civic Sport 2012 Outback 2.5 |
Quote:
Here's all I can think of: WRX - gonna eat a Type R? Don't think so. Mustang Ecoboost $30k - pretty sweet, but people may not cross shop the two. Camaro - only the stripped 2.0L comes with a manual and is under $38k. What am I missing? |
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06-22-2017, 03:17 PM | #504 | |
Scooby Specialist
Member#: 379605
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Peabody, MA
Vehicle:2017 Civic Sport 2012 Outback 2.5 |
Quote:
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06-22-2017, 03:43 PM | #505 | |
Scooby Newbie
Member#: 39908
Join Date: Jul 2003
Chapter/Region:
NWIC
Location: PNWSEC
Vehicle:2001 Impreza 2.5RS 5MT tomato sedan |
Quote:
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06-22-2017, 03:45 PM | #506 | |
Scooby Specialist
Member#: 379605
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Peabody, MA
Vehicle:2017 Civic Sport 2012 Outback 2.5 |
Quote:
Still, I'm not one to buy a car for the 2 days a year you drive on significant snow, or what, 5 days a year of heavy rain? I buy a car for the other 358 days of the year. With an ancient engine and no hatch, the STI simply isn't in consideration. Hopefully they'll rectify that, but I'm not holding my breath. |
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06-22-2017, 07:36 PM | #507 |
Scooby Specialist
Member#: 156049
Join Date: Aug 2007
Chapter/Region:
South East
Location: Orlando FL
Vehicle:2011 Sti sedan SSM |
The ancient engine argument is sooooo old. The BEST engines come from before the ej25 period lets see
4g63 3sgte 2jz Sr20det New isn't new always better. The only new engine that is doing the biz is the BMW tt 3.0. People are putting down 600whp on stock blocks. It gets so old heading the "old engine" statement from people who have never built true high hp cars. The ej25 isn't the best, but it makes usable power at the track (higher Rpms) can put down 400whp with a proper tune and mods, and is very easy to build for more. |
06-22-2017, 08:02 PM | #508 | |
Scooby Newbie
Member#: 39908
Join Date: Jul 2003
Chapter/Region:
NWIC
Location: PNWSEC
Vehicle:2001 Impreza 2.5RS 5MT tomato sedan |
Both are dependent on each other to be true.
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But why is there an argument at all? |
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06-22-2017, 10:42 PM | #509 | |
Scooby Guru
Member#: 44501
Join Date: Oct 2003
Chapter/Region:
NWIC
Location: Yeah, well, you know
Vehicle:that 's, like, your alternate facts, man. |
Quote:
Nobody wants to buy the new $36k vehicle propelled by a dinosaur except for Dodge and Harley-Davidson "enthusiasts"... which we all know are off their rockers. |
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06-23-2017, 12:52 AM | #510 | |
Scooby Guru
Member#: 139693
Join Date: Feb 2007
Vehicle:Dura ngo 95 horrorshow |
Quote:
It doesn't rain every day here by any stretch but when it comes down, it could be days, weeks, or most of a month. Last year, it was steady off/on again in the spring to the point it was the 2nd spring in a row I rode almost nil. This spring, steady 20-30 mph wind for the entire spring. As a motorcyclist well you become an amateur meteorologist. I've lived here most of my life, lived in Seattle for a stretch also. And our rains here trump Seattle. It'll sheot down and fwd you're all over the place. RWD you are all over the place. It can become a damn skating rink. In those situations I want to get on the highway, haul the mail, and get off the road as quick as I can. Longer commute time = more time for an accident. And I've been taught the safest place to be on the highway, is 5-10mph faster than the flow of traffic. Got taught that over two decades ago in MSF. I still remember, vividly, the night I bought my STI in Nov 2008. It was raining like the above mentioned. The STI was not my first AWD vehicle but it was my first awd performance variant. The diffs shrugged off what would cause any other car I've owned to hydroplane. Over the 4 years I had that car, I always marveled out how well or how much traction I could keep in poor weather. Drove it snow, on ice, black ice, and lots and lots of heavy rain. The car just did not care what weather you threw at it. I became hooked. I was already a hatch nut, so it just took it up a bunch of notches. So that's why I say what I say. My personal order, playing off heavyd, CTR < STI < Golf R < RS. There isn't a massive amount of msrp difference to choose FWD. Even in the dry, AWD just has more traction. heavyd also made a good point earlier about one of the European or English outlets. They brought what a Golf R, RS, and CTR to test. But it was raining and the ctr laps were so pathetic they didn't even include it. Believe me there were days someone would whiz by me, in the dry, in something RWD, usually an American V8, and I'd start thinking. Then it would rain and the table was reversed. And sometimes the weather gets so bad, well if awd only gets fully used 5 days a month averaged out for a year, on those 5 days my safety is at risk and that drivetrain is priceless. Each to their own though. |
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06-23-2017, 12:57 AM | #511 |
Scooby Newbie
Member#: 469787
Join Date: Jun 2017
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Buff of mine just picked one up today below sticker price... got a killer deal.
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06-23-2017, 02:30 AM | #512 |
Scooby Guru
Member#: 44501
Join Date: Oct 2003
Chapter/Region:
NWIC
Location: Yeah, well, you know
Vehicle:that 's, like, your alternate facts, man. |
Apparently FWD stops working in typical East Coast weather.
Interesting book studying the effectiveness of old men yelling at thin air, but ultimately a flawed premise. |
06-23-2017, 03:15 AM | #513 |
Scooby Guru
Member#: 159474
Join Date: Sep 2007
Chapter/Region:
NESIC
Location: Northbridge, MA
Vehicle:2017 Impreza Sport Lithium Red - OLDKID |
FWD is prevalent on the east coast. It's cheaper than AWD and they sorely need fuel-efficient vehicles. All them highways. 30 miles to go ANYWHERE.
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06-23-2017, 05:49 AM | #514 |
Scooby Newbie
Member#: 286661
Join Date: Jun 2011
Chapter/Region:
Tri-State
Location: NJ/TX
Vehicle:2016 GTI & CRV |
I drove FWD for many years growing up in NJ, and it worked fine...tires is key.
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06-23-2017, 08:57 AM | #515 |
Scooby Specialist
Member#: 183032
Join Date: Jun 2008
Chapter/Region:
NESIC
Location: CT
Vehicle:RWD Camry Pull me over red |
My wife has a Yaris (fwd, 105hp on a good day, manual) she runs it in CT winters with studded snows and does fine most days, hell many moons ago I used to drive a 300rwhp fox mustang in Vermont winters with snow tires on and made it through. However, when it's real nasty out we go for my WRX with snow tires because although her car makes it through, mine is significantly better in inclement weather, so much so that I enjoy driving it in the winter more than the summer:
There are several arguments going on here, so try not to mix and match them. AWD>FWD in inclement weather. 34KAWD>34kFWD (STi, GolfR) 26kAWD>34kFWD (WRX) 34kRWD>34kFWD (Mustang GT can be had for that money) 30kRWD>34kFWD (370z) 26kRWD>34kFWD (turbo-4 & V6 mustang & Camaro) 26kFWD>34kFWD (FoST, GTI, CSi) CTR = made for fanbois &/or fan service For a dedicated track car, most people are not going to buy a FWD car, they are going to by RWD or AWD. The only argument somewhat working for the CTR is the "practical car, that is also fun" but if that is your angle you may as well save 9 grand and buy the FoST, GTI or CSi, or spend the extra 2 grand and buy an RS, because Subaru refuses to release a hatch/wagon variant. It should be noted I am extremely biased (like everyone else on here) I loathe FWD, but if I had 34k to spend on a new car, and it had to be FWD I'd probably end up in a GTI or FoST before the CTR; the price difference alone is enough, and we already know the GTI and FoST have tuning potential to reach/exceed that level of power, and honestly, I don't think I'd want more than 300whp through the front wheels anyways. |
06-23-2017, 09:51 AM | #516 | |
Scooby Specialist
Member#: 35419
Join Date: Apr 2003
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06-23-2017, 09:53 AM | #517 |
Scooby Specialist
Member#: 194216
Join Date: Nov 2008
Chapter/Region:
W. Canada
Location: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Vehicle:2022 Fast POS |
My Focus ST was fine in the snow with winter tires. The reality is that I missed AWD more in the summer than I did the winter. My issues were more when I added the FRPP tune and the added torque made the first few gears less usable especially on rainy days where the car has major issues putting the power down. My Golf R simply isn't affected by the weather as it just goes about doing its thing as quickly as I ask of it.
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06-23-2017, 09:53 AM | #518 | |
Scooby Newbie
Member#: 453825
Join Date: Sep 2016
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06-23-2017, 11:49 AM | #519 | |
Scooby Newbie
Member#: 416927
Join Date: Mar 2015
Chapter/Region:
NESIC
Location: Boston
Vehicle:2013 WRX hatch CWP |
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06-23-2017, 12:38 PM | #520 |
Scooby Guru
Member#: 128484
Join Date: Oct 2006
Chapter/Region:
International
Location: Germany
Vehicle:2006 EDM WRX STI WRB |
must post the Michael Bay Transformer exhaust here too
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06-23-2017, 12:43 PM | #521 |
Scooby Specialist
Member#: 17312
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Alpharetta, GA
Vehicle:2015 WRX STI Limited Dark Grey Metallic |
I like the argument "I would buy X car because blah blah blah" and then doesn't ever buy it. Its why focus groups **** up what we get here in America.
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06-23-2017, 12:49 PM | #522 |
Scooby Specialist
Member#: 142447
Join Date: Mar 2007
Chapter/Region:
AKIC
Location: Not so Fair...banks
Vehicle:2019 Audi S3 |
Not that I don't hate the idea of building a car based on the paid opinion of the lowest common denominator, I get the impression a lot of buyers go else where because of poor execution of concepts and most likely because of price. Never underestimate how cheap people will be and will buy the biggest piece of crap based solely on price. There's a dude losing his mind in the STI thread over $199 or something.
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06-23-2017, 12:54 PM | #523 |
Scooby Newbie
Member#: 39908
Join Date: Jul 2003
Chapter/Region:
NWIC
Location: PNWSEC
Vehicle:2001 Impreza 2.5RS 5MT tomato sedan |
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06-23-2017, 01:29 PM | #524 |
Scooby Newbie
Member#: 39908
Join Date: Jul 2003
Chapter/Region:
NWIC
Location: PNWSEC
Vehicle:2001 Impreza 2.5RS 5MT tomato sedan |
I feel the CTR is worth $10k more in hard parts than a Civic SI. At $34k, it's priced with top trim GTIs. In that scenario, a GTI quickly runs out of value with added features compared to the two Honda products.
It's hard not to just look straight across the playing field and pick out what wins and what loses at xxx price point. Would someone be out of their mind to go with an Autobahn GTI over a base STI? It happens all the time, but no one goes rant crazy on the forums. The hype R seems to stir more hate than hype in people. Not sure why that is. Nor do I care. Just keep it out of this thread. |
06-23-2017, 02:08 PM | #525 | |
Scooby Guru
Member#: 128484
Join Date: Oct 2006
Chapter/Region:
International
Location: Germany
Vehicle:2006 EDM WRX STI WRB |
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