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Old 06-22-2017, 01:14 PM   #501
neg_matnik
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Quote:
Originally Posted by subyski View Post
I think if a base model CTR is offered next year closer to $30k, this will make it a good package. At $34k, it is at the heals of AWD and RWD competition which makes it a harder sell.
True to some extent.
I don't know of any RWD competitor with 5 doors in this price range, not even 4 doors.
So, we're basically back to AWD competitors.
Then again, in that space, there are only 2 competitors with 5 doors until Subaru wakes the **** up .
The sell is only hard for people that:
- don't care about the number of doors or body style in general (as long as it goes like stink and hug corners like a mama bear hug her pup)
- are laser focused on drivetrain layout (for any number of reasons) and don't believe in FWD for performance driving
- can't stand the polarizing body work
- won't get caught driving a Honda no matter what?
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Old 06-22-2017, 02:43 PM   #502
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Originally Posted by DougNuts View Post
The more I look into the CTR, the more I like it. It seems like a lot of car for the money, it's practical and has the performance to back up the looks. I think it's a great value (they are available for MSRP), even when compared to its rivals, but I am interested to see how it fares in magazine comparos.
It will do well maybe even win the comparisons. The initial reviews of the Focus RS were stellar and as time progressed the auto media started to pick at it. I would imagine when car comparisons are done against the Golf R, RS, STI that some of the inherent flaws of FWD will be more noticeable when driven back to back against the AWD competitors. I'll go as far as to predict the first C&D comparison;

4th Place: STI
Pros: Solid performer when pushed.
Cons: Face only a mother could love (they have used this already so recycling here). Dated engine, interior, and poor street ride.

3rd Place: Focus RS
Pros: Great engine grunt. Lots of fun to drift around corners.
Cons: Car is showing it's age and the street ride is unforgiveable.

2nd Place: Golf R
Pros: Does everything well. Feels like the most expensive car in this company.
Cons: Lacks the sporty edge of the other cars and the looks are timid in this group.

1st Place: Civic Type R
Pros: All hail the new hot hatch king blah blah blah. Feels the best on the track. Perfect shifter. Surprisingly agreeable as a daily driver.
Cons: Looks like a Civic Type R. Pushes the limits of FWD and sometimes exceeds them.

The magazines are pretty predictable (usually always love the newcomer before piling on them a year later) so I feel I will be pretty close.
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Old 06-22-2017, 03:14 PM   #503
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Originally Posted by chulooz View Post
Toss in A/RWD considerations against the CTR and it yet again gets eaten up by the bang-for-buck competition.
Can you make a list of AWD & RWD performance cars for $34k?

Here's all I can think of:
WRX - gonna eat a Type R? Don't think so.
Mustang Ecoboost $30k - pretty sweet, but people may not cross shop the two.
Camaro - only the stripped 2.0L comes with a manual and is under $38k.

What am I missing?
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Old 06-22-2017, 03:17 PM   #504
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Originally Posted by heavyD View Post
It will do well maybe even win the comparisons. The initial reviews of the Focus RS were stellar and as time progressed the auto media started to pick at it. I would imagine when car comparisons are done against the Golf R, RS, STI that some of the inherent flaws of FWD will be more noticeable when driven back to back against the AWD competitors. I'll go as far as to predict the first C&D comparison;

4th Place: STI
Pros: Solid performer when pushed.
Cons: Face only a mother could love (they have used this already so recycling here). Dated engine, interior, and poor street ride.

3rd Place: Focus RS
Pros: Great engine grunt. Lots of fun to drift around corners.
Cons: Car is showing it's age and the street ride is unforgiveable.

2nd Place: Golf R
Pros: Does everything well. Feels like the most expensive car in this company.
Cons: Lacks the sporty edge of the other cars and the looks are timid in this group.

1st Place: Civic Type R
Pros: All hail the new hot hatch king blah blah blah. Feels the best on the track. Perfect shifter. Surprisingly agreeable as a daily driver.
Cons: Looks like a Civic Type R. Pushes the limits of FWD and sometimes exceeds them.

The magazines are pretty predictable (usually always love the newcomer before piling on them a year later) so I feel I will be pretty close.
I thought that was the real C&D comparo.
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Old 06-22-2017, 03:43 PM   #505
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heavyD View Post
It will do well maybe even win the comparisons. The initial reviews of the Focus RS were stellar and as time progressed the auto media started to pick at it. I would imagine when car comparisons are done against the Golf R, RS, STI that some of the inherent flaws of FWD will be more noticeable when driven back to back against the AWD competitors. I'll go as far as to predict the first C&D comparison;

Summary:
re-zero and millions others made terrible choices with skipping on the ITR. Honda is finally here for them.

4th Place: STI
Pros: Solid performer when pushed.
Cons: Face only a mother could love (they have used this already so recycling here). Dated engine, interior, and poor street ride.

3rd Place: Focus RS
Pros: Great engine grunt. Lots of fun to drift around corners.
Cons: Car is showing it's age and the street ride is unforgiveable.

2nd Place: Golf R
Pros: Does everything well. Feels like the most expensive car in this company.
Cons: Lacks the sporty edge of the other cars and the looks are timid in this group.

1st Place: Civic Type R
Pros: All hail the new hot hatch king blah blah blah. Feels the best on the track. Perfect shifter. Surprisingly agreeable as a daily driver.
Cons: Looks like a Civic Type R. Pushes the limits of FWD and sometimes exceeds them.

The magazines are pretty predictable (usually always love the newcomer before piling on them a year later) so I feel I will be pretty close.
Perfect!
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Old 06-22-2017, 03:45 PM   #506
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In reference to awd, I'm talking about being able to use the added traction that drivetrain provides in the dry, wet, snow, any weather condition. Street, track, whatever. Other people have to slow way down. Solid awd system underneath you can drive faster, safer. Here is an example for you. I have a FWD DD toaster. It's crap in the rain, crap in anything but the dry. I have to slow down, in the rain watch for hydroplaning, etc. In the STI I could mash the pedal and not concern myself with worrying about traction. I had that car hydroplane on me once and it was because I was past the time to replace my tires.
I get that sure, it was one of the highlights of our old 2002 WRX (moreso than the Outback, which doesn't seem as comfortable plowing through heavy rain). It seemed a little uncanny how much it grips in heavy rain. And of course snow.

Still, I'm not one to buy a car for the 2 days a year you drive on significant snow, or what, 5 days a year of heavy rain? I buy a car for the other 358 days of the year.

With an ancient engine and no hatch, the STI simply isn't in consideration. Hopefully they'll rectify that, but I'm not holding my breath.
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Old 06-22-2017, 07:36 PM   #507
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The ancient engine argument is sooooo old. The BEST engines come from before the ej25 period lets see

4g63
3sgte
2jz
Sr20det

New isn't new always better. The only new engine that is doing the biz is the BMW tt 3.0. People are putting down 600whp on stock blocks. It gets so old heading the "old engine" statement from people who have never built true high hp cars. The ej25 isn't the best, but it makes usable power at the track (higher Rpms) can put down 400whp with a proper tune and mods, and is very easy to build for more.
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Old 06-22-2017, 08:02 PM   #508
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Originally Posted by turtleb00st View Post
The ancient engine argument is sooooo old.
Both are dependent on each other to be true.


Quote:
Originally Posted by turtleb00st View Post
It gets so old heading the "old engine" statement from people who have never built true high hp cars.
Same could be argued about FWD.


But why is there an argument at all?
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Old 06-22-2017, 10:42 PM   #509
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Originally Posted by turtleb00st View Post
The ancient engine argument is sooooo old. The BEST engines come from before the ej25 period lets see

4g63
3sgte
2jz
Sr20det

New isn't new always better. The only new engine that is doing the biz is the BMW tt 3.0. People are putting down 600whp on stock blocks. It gets so old heading the "old engine" statement from people who have never built true high hp cars. The ej25 isn't the best, but it makes usable power at the track (higher Rpms) can put down 400whp with a proper tune and mods, and is very easy to build for more.
They were great engines in their time. In fact, they were so great, you can buy plenty of old used cars with those engines in them if that's what you want.. but we're talking about new car buyers, not project collectors.

Nobody wants to buy the new $36k vehicle propelled by a dinosaur except for Dodge and Harley-Davidson "enthusiasts"... which we all know are off their rockers.
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Old 06-23-2017, 12:52 AM   #510
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Originally Posted by VarmintCong View Post
I get that sure, it was one of the highlights of our old 2002 WRX (moreso than the Outback, which doesn't seem as comfortable plowing through heavy rain). It seemed a little uncanny how much it grips in heavy rain. And of course snow.

Still, I'm not one to buy a car for the 2 days a year you drive on significant snow, or what, 5 days a year of heavy rain? I buy a car for the other 358 days of the year.

With an ancient engine and no hatch, the STI simply isn't in consideration. Hopefully they'll rectify that, but I'm not holding my breath.
Where I live snow is every other year, for a week. Ice and black ice every other year. Now rain, we get a lot. We get more precipitation than Seattle, but instead of it coming down off and on for 9 months of the year, when it comes, it sheets down. 2 years ago, it rained 3 months straight, and that was just the spring. I had standing water in my water meter, and water draining off the grass into the street. Whole property just drenched for months on end. Same year, December it rained most of the month then we got bad hail, and tornadoes touched down taking out large neighborhoods where hail went through the shingles, through the attic and into people's living rooms, all on the news.

It doesn't rain every day here by any stretch but when it comes down, it could be days, weeks, or most of a month. Last year, it was steady off/on again in the spring to the point it was the 2nd spring in a row I rode almost nil. This spring, steady 20-30 mph wind for the entire spring. As a motorcyclist well you become an amateur meteorologist. I've lived here most of my life, lived in Seattle for a stretch also. And our rains here trump Seattle. It'll sheot down and fwd you're all over the place. RWD you are all over the place. It can become a damn skating rink. In those situations I want to get on the highway, haul the mail, and get off the road as quick as I can. Longer commute time = more time for an accident. And I've been taught the safest place to be on the highway, is 5-10mph faster than the flow of traffic. Got taught that over two decades ago in MSF.

I still remember, vividly, the night I bought my STI in Nov 2008. It was raining like the above mentioned. The STI was not my first AWD vehicle but it was my first awd performance variant. The diffs shrugged off what would cause any other car I've owned to hydroplane. Over the 4 years I had that car, I always marveled out how well or how much traction I could keep in poor weather. Drove it snow, on ice, black ice, and lots and lots of heavy rain. The car just did not care what weather you threw at it. I became hooked. I was already a hatch nut, so it just took it up a bunch of notches. So that's why I say what I say. My personal order, playing off heavyd, CTR < STI < Golf R < RS. There isn't a massive amount of msrp difference to choose FWD. Even in the dry, AWD just has more traction. heavyd also made a good point earlier about one of the European or English outlets. They brought what a Golf R, RS, and CTR to test. But it was raining and the ctr laps were so pathetic they didn't even include it.

Believe me there were days someone would whiz by me, in the dry, in something RWD, usually an American V8, and I'd start thinking. Then it would rain and the table was reversed. And sometimes the weather gets so bad, well if awd only gets fully used 5 days a month averaged out for a year, on those 5 days my safety is at risk and that drivetrain is priceless. Each to their own though.
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Old 06-23-2017, 12:57 AM   #511
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Buff of mine just picked one up today below sticker price... got a killer deal.
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Old 06-23-2017, 02:30 AM   #512
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Apparently FWD stops working in typical East Coast weather.

Interesting book studying the effectiveness of old men yelling at thin air, but ultimately a flawed premise.
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Old 06-23-2017, 03:15 AM   #513
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FWD is prevalent on the east coast. It's cheaper than AWD and they sorely need fuel-efficient vehicles. All them highways. 30 miles to go ANYWHERE.
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Old 06-23-2017, 05:49 AM   #514
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I drove FWD for many years growing up in NJ, and it worked fine...tires is key.
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Old 06-23-2017, 08:57 AM   #515
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My wife has a Yaris (fwd, 105hp on a good day, manual) she runs it in CT winters with studded snows and does fine most days, hell many moons ago I used to drive a 300rwhp fox mustang in Vermont winters with snow tires on and made it through. However, when it's real nasty out we go for my WRX with snow tires because although her car makes it through, mine is significantly better in inclement weather, so much so that I enjoy driving it in the winter more than the summer:

There are several arguments going on here, so try not to mix and match them.

AWD>FWD in inclement weather.
34KAWD>34kFWD (STi, GolfR)
26kAWD>34kFWD (WRX)
34kRWD>34kFWD (Mustang GT can be had for that money)
30kRWD>34kFWD (370z)
26kRWD>34kFWD (turbo-4 & V6 mustang & Camaro)
26kFWD>34kFWD (FoST, GTI, CSi)
CTR = made for fanbois &/or fan service

For a dedicated track car, most people are not going to buy a FWD car, they are going to by RWD or AWD.

The only argument somewhat working for the CTR is the "practical car, that is also fun" but if that is your angle you may as well save 9 grand and buy the FoST, GTI or CSi, or spend the extra 2 grand and buy an RS, because Subaru refuses to release a hatch/wagon variant.

It should be noted I am extremely biased (like everyone else on here) I loathe FWD, but if I had 34k to spend on a new car, and it had to be FWD I'd probably end up in a GTI or FoST before the CTR; the price difference alone is enough, and we already know the GTI and FoST have tuning potential to reach/exceed that level of power, and honestly, I don't think I'd want more than 300whp through the front wheels anyways.
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Old 06-23-2017, 09:51 AM   #516
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It should be noted I am extremely biased (like everyone else on here) I loathe FWD, but if I had 34k to spend on a new car, and it had to be FWD I'd probably end up in a GTI or FoST before the CTR; the price difference alone is enough, and we already know the GTI and FoST have tuning potential to reach/exceed that level of power, and honestly, I don't think I'd want more than 300whp through the front wheels anyways.
Hmm, put that way (HAD to buy a fwd), despite being a notoriously cheap bastard, I'd get the Honda.
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Old 06-23-2017, 09:53 AM   #517
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My Focus ST was fine in the snow with winter tires. The reality is that I missed AWD more in the summer than I did the winter. My issues were more when I added the FRPP tune and the added torque made the first few gears less usable especially on rainy days where the car has major issues putting the power down. My Golf R simply isn't affected by the weather as it just goes about doing its thing as quickly as I ask of it.
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Old 06-23-2017, 09:53 AM   #518
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Can you make a list of AWD & RWD performance cars for $34k?

Here's all I can think of:
WRX - gonna eat a Type R? Don't think so.
Mustang Ecoboost $30k - pretty sweet, but people may not cross shop the two.
Camaro - only the stripped 2.0L comes with a manual and is under $38k.

What am I missing?
The markup tho at the dealer is crazy ridiculous!! More than a $25,000 markup here making it damn near $60k. There a re a ton of better cars than that. Anyone who is willing to buy a type r at that price is an idiot.
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Old 06-23-2017, 11:49 AM   #519
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So may times I pass in the fast lane, some Mustang, Camaro, Porsche, Mas, whatever driver, gets pissed they got passed, stomps on it, only to start fish tailing, spinning out and give up. Why my driving punches their ego in the jugular escapes me but they cannot take it, give it a go, and quickly admit defeat and go away. All seen in the rear view mirror.
^^^THIS!!! I get this nearly every time I drive in the snow. Some random kid in a Tiburon was flipping me off and cursing me out because I drove around him as he struggled up a hill. Did he think I was obligated to tow him up the hill? Get out and give him a push?
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Old 06-23-2017, 12:38 PM   #520
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must post the Michael Bay Transformer exhaust here too

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Old 06-23-2017, 12:43 PM   #521
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I like the argument "I would buy X car because blah blah blah" and then doesn't ever buy it. Its why focus groups **** up what we get here in America.
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Old 06-23-2017, 12:49 PM   #522
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I like the argument "I would buy X car because blah blah blah" and then doesn't ever buy it. Its why focus groups **** up what we get here in America.
Not that I don't hate the idea of building a car based on the paid opinion of the lowest common denominator, I get the impression a lot of buyers go else where because of poor execution of concepts and most likely because of price. Never underestimate how cheap people will be and will buy the biggest piece of crap based solely on price. There's a dude losing his mind in the STI thread over $199 or something.
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Old 06-23-2017, 12:54 PM   #523
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must post the Michael Bay Transformer exhaust here too

http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars...ree-tailpipes/
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Old 06-23-2017, 01:29 PM   #524
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I feel the CTR is worth $10k more in hard parts than a Civic SI. At $34k, it's priced with top trim GTIs. In that scenario, a GTI quickly runs out of value with added features compared to the two Honda products.

It's hard not to just look straight across the playing field and pick out what wins and what loses at xxx price point. Would someone be out of their mind to go with an Autobahn GTI over a base STI? It happens all the time, but no one goes rant crazy on the forums. The hype R seems to stir more hate than hype in people. Not sure why that is. Nor do I care. Just keep it out of this thread.
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Old 06-23-2017, 02:08 PM   #525
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so it helps nothing hp-wise but weighs a ton because of the sound, got it
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