Subaru Cooling System Conditioner - What IS this stuff?

[jac04]

So, I was refilling my cooling system with genuine Subaru coolant and figured that I better add the conditioner before I topped it off. I shook the bottle, opened it up and started pouring. Luckily, I didn't put much of this stuff in before I realized that something didn't look right. So, I went to my second bottle and same thing - chunks of white stuff.

So, would you put this in your radiator? Is this stuff supposed to break down when it gets hot? For now, I'm not going to use the conditioner.

Let me know what you think:

First Bottle:



Second bottle:

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[jetskibucky]

It is a scam, like all octane boosters, coolant additives, oil additives(Stabilizers by those companies that want to sound unique), refrigerant additives, etc. Companies that make these BS products exploit the ignorance of those who are eager to make their car last forever and perform better. Even if these products don't deliver, ignorant people will line up in droves to pay based on nothing more than a promise, slogan, or fancy marketing ploy. If you really want to throw your money in the trash, please PayPal me at [email protected]

[MrHorspwer]

It is a scam, like all octane boosters, coolant additives, oil additives(Stabilizers by those companies that want to sound unique), refrigerant additives, etc. Companies that make these BS products exploit the ignorance of those who are eager to make their car last forever and perform better. Even if these products don't deliver, ignorant people will line up in droves to pay based on nothing more than a promise, slogan, or fancy marketing ploy.

Subaru actually issued a recall to bring in all the early phase two 2.5L to have this conditioner installed. Subaru also recommends the use of the conditioner at every coolant change for those engines.

Now, if Subaru themselves issued a recall (which is certainly not an act to be taken lightly) to use the conditioner, I don't quite think it was so they could sell their customers $1.29 snake oil. If Subaru went so far as to issue a recall to install the conditioner, there is some underlying reason (:cough: head gasket leak :cough.

FWIW, when I used the conditioner, I first shook the bottle really well, then pre-mixed it with a gallon of coolant before pouring it into the radiator.

[jac04]

Update: I went to the local dealership (not where I purchased the original 2 bottles) and bought another bottle of conditioner. Guess what? No chunks of stuff in it at all. It still looked a little funky to me, but the guy at the dealership said that it is supposed to look that way.

MrHorspwer- Did your conditioner look the same as mine minus the white chunks?

[avk]

This chemical is a re-labelled British product called RadWeld. It has been getting good reviews.

[jetskibucky]

Originally Posted by MrHorspwer

Subaru actually issued a recall to bring in all the early phase two 2.5L to have this conditioner installed. Subaru also recommends the use of the conditioner at every coolant change for those engines.

Now, if Subaru themselves issued a recall (which is certainly not an act to be taken lightly) to use the conditioner, I don't quite think it was so they could sell their customers $1.29 snake oil. If Subaru went so far as to issue a recall to install the conditioner, there is some underlying reason (:cough: head gasket leak :cough.

FWIW, when I used the conditioner, I first shook the bottle really well, then pre-mixed it with a gallon of coolant before pouring it into the radiator.

OK, assuming in arguendo, this is true, should I still install this in my later model 2.5L vehicle? Buy what you want, there is a huge market for these types of bogus materials. Companies like Slick50 have paid millions in fines to the FTC for making or even marketing these bogus products. I don't care if God issued a recall to put this cr@p in my car, I still won't allow it to be installed.

[Feign]

Originally Posted by jetskibucky

OK, assuming in arguendo, this is true, should I still install this in my later model 2.5L vehicle? Buy what you want, there is a huge market for these types of bogus materials. Companies like Slick50 have paid millions in fines to the FTC for making or even marketing these bogus products. I don't care if God issued a recall to put this cr@p in my car, I still won't allow it to be installed.

Enjoy your lack of warranty if you pop a coolant passage.

[z&cobb]

I guess not every additive is bad. Skepticism, without investigation, can lead to foot-in-mouth occasionally.

[nardvark]

You know, I noticed these chunks in my conditioner as well. I didn't want to drive 15 miles back to the dealership to ask about it, so I decided to hope that they'd break back down into tiny little bits that would plug up any potential head gasket leaks.

Granted, I'm an optimist, but my engine hasn't exploded yet.

[Unabomber]

The cond***305;t***305;oner ***305;s a rebranded Br***305;t***305;sh Holt***180;s product as stated above. You w***305;ll vo***305;d your cool***305;ng sytem warranty ***305;f you dont use ***305;t ***305;n ANY Subaru now. Use ***305;t ***305;f you want a warranty. Stop ***305;f you dont want a warranty and th***305;nk you are smarter than FHI eng***305;neers. Its really that s***305;mple and has been d***305;scussed ad nauseum ***305;n the Cool***305;ng System FAQ.

[Foo_Blyat]

Originally Posted by Unabomber

The cond***305;t***305;oner ***305;s a rebranded Br***305;t***305;sh Holt***180;s product as stated above. You w***305;ll vo***305;d your cool***305;ng sytem warranty ***305;f you dont use ***305;t ***305;n ANY Subaru now. Use ***305;t ***305;f you want a warranty. Stop ***305;f you dont want a warranty and th***305;nk you are smarter than FHI eng***305;neers. Its really that s***305;mple and has been d***305;scussed ad nauseum ***305;n the Cool***305;ng System FAQ.

So you recommend using it?

EDIT: NVM, stupid question, just read the FAQ.

[jetskibucky]

Originally Posted by z&cobb

I guess not every additive is bad. Skepticism, without investigation, can lead to foot-in-mouth occasionally.

I'm positive every additive is bogus. Think of it this way, if there was some special additive recipe, why wouldn't the maker of the product(Valvoline, Mobile, etc.) put the product in themselves? Maybe they have not discovered it, right? Don't be an additive sucker? BTW, I work for the API(American Petroleum Institute), I should know.

[jetskibucky]

Originally Posted by Feign

Enjoy your lack of warranty if you pop a coolant passage.

I'm not concerned at all. I don't buy into company marketing ploys that generate fear. If I "pop a coolant passage", it won't be from not using this garbage being discussed. I work for the American Petroleum Institute as a chemist. In 2003, we tested over 350, so-called additives for coolant, engine oil, and refridgeration. Guess what, they all contributed nothing, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING, in benefit to the vehicle component they were supposed to. Our department employees have been called as an expert witness in civil trials hosted by the Federal Trade Commission 7 times in the last 5 years.

American consumers are interesting. We are always looking for a magic pill/potion to make us feel better. Us Subaru enthusiasts are so fond of our cars, we will use anything in the hopes of making our car special and last forever. The companies that manufacture these solutions exploit such consumers who simply want to preserve their prized possession.

Cars have existed now for over a hundred years without the "benefit" of these snakeoil products. If it brings you peace of mind to use these products, then use them. The only true benefit is mental as I'm confident that this additive is similar to the hundreds I have personally tested.

[athakur999]

What is so special about the Subaru cooling system that it needs this additive to begin with? I looked up Radweld in Google and it seems like the main purpose of that product is to stop small leaks. Is there something so inherently broken with the Subaru cooling system that it is prone to leaking and needs to run a leak sealant additive all the time?

Does the coolant need some extra "oomph" to deal with being passed through the turbo? If so, is this additive only required for turbo engines?

[jetskibucky]

Originally Posted by athakur999

What is so special about the Subaru cooling system that it needs this additive to begin with? I looked up Radweld in Google and it seems like the main purpose of that product is to stop small leaks. Is there something so inherently broken with the Subaru cooling system that it is prone to leaking and needs to run a leak sealant additive all the time?

Does the coolant need some extra "oomph" to deal with being passed through the turbo? If so, is this additive only required for turbo engines?

It's not special at all, that's my point. Every year, dozens of new "additives" or "stabilizers" hit the US market for American consumption. This is just another one of many.

[nardvark]

But they don't advertise this or sell it to the entire market. They just put it in their coolant when they change it at the dealer, and tell you that if you're going to change it yourself, you need to add it or you won't get warranty coverage for a known issue that they say this conditioner solves.

Also, it costs a dollar and some change, so I don't think they are making money on it.

[jetskibucky]

Originally Posted by nardvark

But they don't advertise this or sell it to the entire market. They just put it in their coolant when they change it at the dealer, and tell you that if you're going to change it yourself, you need to add it or you won't get warranty coverage for a known issue that they say this conditioner solves.

Also, it costs a dollar and some change, so I don't think they are making money on it.

I understand your logic, but I don't agree with it. Being in my profession, I have witnessed similar situations which were devised, not to help the consumer, but to hurt the consumer.

Case in point:

Several years ago, I met with a large group of senior engineers from both BMW and Mercedes. The meeting was designed as a symposium aimed at allowing these two companies to increase profits through marketing. The engineers were frustrated by the marketing department's requirement that vehicle owner's manuals state the need to run high octane fuel. The engineers knew this was not necessary. Though some of the higher end models for both manufacturers needed to run higher octane fuel, the entry line models did not. Despite this understanding, the marketing department required that owner's manuals dictate the need to run high octane fuel. Marketing prevailed over engineers.

As for this additive, I have a hunch why dealers are requiring its use. Use it if it will make you feel better, I'm sure your car will never know the difference.

[z&cobb]

Originally Posted by jetskibucky

I understand your logic, but I don't agree with it. Being in my profession, I have witnessed similar situations which were devised, not to help the consumer, but to hurt the consumer.

Case in point:

Several years ago, I met with a large group of senior engineers from both BMW and Mercedes. The meeting was designed as a symposium aimed at allowing these two companies to increase profits through marketing. The engineers were frustrated by the marketing department's requirement that vehicle owner's manuals state the need to run high octane fuel. The engineers knew this was not necessary. Though some of the higher end models for both manufacturers needed to run higher octane fuel, the entry line models did not. Despite this understanding, the marketing department required that owner's manuals dictate the need to run high octane fuel. Marketing prevailed over engineers.

As for this additive, I have a hunch why dealers are requiring its use. Use it if it will make you feel better, I'm sure your car will never know the difference.

As an insider, is synthetic oil a scam too?

[rkramer]

Originally Posted by jetskibucky

. In 2003, we tested over 350, so-called additives for coolant, engine oil, and refridgeration. Guess what, they all contributed nothing, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING, in benefit to the vehicle component they were supposed to.

what did you test them for? I've seen bars stop leak work on numerous vehicles that had various degrees of either coolant leak or minor head gasket problems. It DOES work, many on here probably have used it also and will say so...

It did NOTHING to increase performance, so if you tested for performance, obviously there would be no change.

[surowrxa]

Originally Posted by athakur999

What is so special about the Subaru cooling system that it needs this additive to begin with? I looked up Radweld in Google and it seems like the main purpose of that product is to stop small leaks. Is there something so inherently broken with the Subaru cooling system that it is prone to leaking and needs to run a leak sealant additive all the time?

Does the coolant need some extra "oomph" to deal with being passed through the turbo? If so, is this additive only required for turbo engines?

All dealers are required to use the additive with every coolant change in every Subaru.

The conditioner came on the scene specifically to aid the ailing early phase I EJ25, but now is used for all phases/engines in the line up.

[jetskibucky]

Originally Posted by rkramer

what did you test them for? I've seen bars stop leak work on numerous vehicles that had various degrees of either coolant leak or minor head gasket problems. It DOES work, many on here probably have used it also and will say so...

It did NOTHING to increase performance, so if you tested for performance, obviously there would be no change.

When I get a leak, I fix the leak professionally. If my radiator has a hole, I weld/solder/braze the leak.

[jetskibucky]

Originally Posted by surowrxa

All dealers are required to use the additive with every coolant change in every Subaru.

The conditioner came on the scene specifically to aid the ailing early phase I EJ25, but now is used for all phases/engines in the line up.

As I said in an earlier post, when deciding to use a product, you must determine why instead of blindly assuming that those who are telling you are looking after your best interest. Your statement proves my point. If Subaru only required this coolant "conditioner" for ailing earlier phase EJ25, if mine is not one of these motors, why use the stuff. We are humans, not lemmings.

[jetskibucky]

Originally Posted by z&cobb

As an insider, is synthetic oil a scam too?

Synthetic oil is definately better, but most cars cannot use it to its full benefit making it a waste of money for non-turbocharged cars. I run Mobile One in my Suby, not for the engine, but for the turbo. Being the hotest lubricated component of the car, the turbo can benefit from the 400 degree flash point. Conventional oil has a flash point, depending on weight, of around 250 degrees. Though I don't know the exact temperature of the oil discharged from the turbo, I feel better using an oil that I have personally tested to withstand higher temperature. For non-forced induction cars, there is no significant benefit.

[surowrxa]

Originally Posted by jetskibucky

As I said in an earlier post, when deciding to use a product, you must determine why instead of blindly assuming that those who are telling you are looking after your best interest. Your statement proves my point. If Subaru only required this coolant "conditioner" for ailing earlier phase EJ25, if mine is not one of these motors, why use the stuff. We are humans, not lemmings.

Believe me when I say that I don't follow any advice without checking it out first. I know about the conditioner because my wife's Forester has a healthy early EJ25. But when I checked into the phenomenon of the "early death by head gasket failure," I found that later phases were afflicted with HG failure. Many cases were those who changed their own coolant (sans cond.).

Inherent design flaws are what caused the HG failures, Subaru has found a way (band-aid style) to extend the life of the engine. They require the use of "stop leak" more as a precautionary measure for the newer engines, hoping to avoid a (new) major catastrophic recall.

For the cheap price of the stuff, I'm putting it in.

[z&cobb]

Do you use energy conserving Mobil 1 in your car?

I'm not a lawyer, I just spend a lot of time with them. I'm actually a physical chemist who taught graduate quantum chemistry, among other things.

There is actually a lot going on at Nasioc, about oil and broken engines.