Next Gen STI Canceled

[bugatti0628]

Originally Posted by Snow Drift

There's no VB SGP chassis based STI coming.

So, it would make sense to use the eSGP (Toyota-Subaru) skateboard chassis from the Solterra. At that point, the gas engine is long gone.

I don't see them using the VB chassis either for a STI. However that doesn't mean the gas engine may be long gone. They can make a hybrid setup on whatever frame they want to use

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[Snow Drift]

Originally Posted by bugatti0628

I don't see them using the VB chassis either for a STI. However that doesn't mean the gas engine may be long gone. They can make a hybrid setup on whatever frame they want to use

You are of course correct, however, what I mean is...

There may not be another gas chassis after SGP. Why would they develop one? The future is skateboard battery chassis, and really ones where the pack is structural.

[b4wantab]

Liquid fuel isn't going anywhere anytime soon. The aviation industry has no choice and they use a poop-load of fuel. They ahve been working on options so I think we will see something soon.

So, I think an ICE or not is really a question of Subaru fixing their emission problems. I am sure they could pick up sales by being relevant in Europe again. You just don't know what the plan is.

Subaru had to loose a bunch on money bucking up to establish STI as a separate brand only to kill it off. Doesn't make sense so who knows what is really happening.

Peace,

Greg

[Russ_G93]

Originally Posted by bugatti0628

With all the real world use of the 2.4 dit in the nurburgring car and supposed japan rally build, they are seeing what the engine can do. It makes the 2.4 dit paired with two motors for a new STI more viable. One motor attached to the transmission and the one on the rear axle. They can keep the axles connected like the crosstrek was or have no connection to make room for the battery under the floor. You get instant torque from the motors before the turbo spools up. It also gives subaru time to work on a dct to replace the cvt. I recall at one point they were thinking of using the existing two motor setup from the plug-in hybrid crosstrek. However they saw that setup was not built for high performance applications. The rav4 prime setup however allows for 300hp. We wait to see if the upcoming forester will come with a toyota rav4 prime setup. It may allow us a chance to have an electrified STI instead just an all electric one

What about the set up from the NSX? I know completely different chassis and engine/tech, but would they be able to use the car as somewhat of another reference? In person, those cars are small. It almost seems completely possible for Subaru to cook up something similar.

[Russ_G93]

Originally Posted by b4wantab

Liquid fuel isn't going anywhere anytime soon. The aviation industry has no choice and they use a poop-load of fuel. They ahve been working on options so I think we will see something soon.

So, I think an ICE or not is really a question of Subaru fixing their emission problems. I am sure they could pick up sales by being relevant in Europe again. You just don't know what the plan is.

Subaru had to loose a bunch on money bucking up to establish STI as a separate brand only to kill it off. Doesn't make sense so who knows what is really happening.

Peace,

Greg

I saw that Tesla recently purchased patents for Electric Planes and ships. I wonder how far out those will be.. let alone the cost for "Sea Worthy" Battery based ships. Can't imagine them being that long ranged fighting the currents and stormy weather. Unpredictable weather would be an issue for Solar implications.

[4S-TURBO]

[Snow Drift]

Originally Posted by Russ_G93

What about the set up from the NSX? I know completely different chassis and engine/tech, but would they be able to use the car as somewhat of another reference? In person, those cars are small. It almost seems completely possible for Subaru to cook up something similar.

That system is really complicated. 3 motors (2 Front, 1 Rear connected to the crankshaft), plus gas engine.

It can be much simpler:

STI could just put MG2 in the transmission (like Crosstrek), to allow for full time AWD via the planetary gear center differential (DCCD). Then MG1 would be a generator (like Crosstrek). Front helical is the same. Then a driveshaft connects to a rear LSD which uses twin clutch-packs for torque vectoring (a la Audi Sport Differential).

Biggest issue is finding a place for a sizeable battery pack. Crosstrek pack was tiny (8.8 kWh) vs Rav4 Prime (18 kWh).

[rallly 4]

Originally Posted by NighthawkSTI

Yes porsche's Efuel is $44 per gallon. And they are nowhere near capable of scaling it to the point where it would get cheaper anytime soon...maybe in 15 years if it lasts it will be $10 a gallon...EV has too big of a jump. Efuel is just a last ditch gasp.to keep I.C.E engines viable by big oil in the blossoming EV revolution. You should know this.
I get it, you have been working in an industry controlled by big oil. So.you will discredit anything that counters the survival.of that industry. And your simply wrong about Gas Stations vs EV chargers...big oil is doing a good job of surpressing that fact. Ev chargers have become more efficient after 2019 they surpassed gas pumps in kwph efficiency.

these anti ev arguments on here are old and obsolete and outdated and sound like they are from 2010. Lmfao...get a clue people its 2023...the entire auto industry is going EV because now its more.efficient they are easier to manufacture margins are better litrrally everything is better now..in 2010... no.....now? Yes
Get your heads out of 2010 lmao dont be a petrol head

BTW...the number of EV chargers in the U.S has already passed the number of gas pumps.

You’re brainwashed by big media outlets.

The most profitable, and largest automotive company in the world (Toyota) who currently by a long mile has the smartest executives and officers - and historically has the smartest engineers (this is factual, all modern automotive companies produce based on the Toyota supply chain method) is not diving in on EV’s - why? Because they know if they do go all in and pour all of their finances and resources to gear up for a “ev” revolution - they will go bankrupt. The company’s who are all in on EV:s will not survive in the long run. Toyota knows it - these are the same people who started testing developing and testing electric vehicles on a large scale LONG before anyone else or any gov mandated it.

[n2oiroc]

Originally Posted by rallly 4

You’re brainwashed by big media outlets.

The most profitable, and largest automotive company in the world (Toyota) who currently by a long mile has the smartest executives and officers - and historically has the smartest engineers (this is factual, all modern automotive companies produce based on the Toyota supply chain method) is not diving in on EV’s - why? Because they know if they do go all in and pour all of their finances and resources to gear up for a “ev” revolution - they will go bankrupt. The company’s who are all in on EV:s will not survive in the long run. Toyota knows it - these are the same people who started testing developing and testing electric vehicles on a large scale LONG before anyone else or any gov mandated it.

toyota is living off their past reputation. they refuse to innovate or invest because their cult following will buy anything as long as it has the toyota badge on it. all of the japanese automakers are the same and living in the past.

[rallly 4]

Originally Posted by n2oiroc

toyota is living off their past reputation. they refuse to innovate or invest because their cult following will buy anything as long as it has the toyota badge on it. all of the japanese automakers are the same and living in the past.

They continue to grow every year.

If you think an automobile manufacturer is living off of the past , you are misinformed. They spend tens of millions of dollars to continuously research and improve their products and future products based on hard market data.


Can you provide me an inkling of proof Toyota is holding out from billions of dollars being invested and complying with federal regulations because of their past?


This is the same company who has brought back the Supra, improved the GR86, and is now bringing GR series rally specials here.

[n2oiroc]

Originally Posted by rallly 4

They continue to grow every year.

If you think an automobile manufacturer is living off of the past , you are misinformed. They spend tens of millions of dollars to continuously research and improve their products and future products based on hard market data.


Can you provide me an inkling of proof Toyota is holding out from billions of dollars being invested and complying with federal regulations because of their past?


This is the same company who has brought back the Supra, improved the GR86, and is now bringing GR series rally specials here.

They needed subaru and bmw to bring them to market, thanks for providing some good examples.

[samagon]

Originally Posted by n2oiroc

They needed subaru and bmw to bring them to market, thanks for providing some good examples.

it doesn't even seem like it would be worth it to share facts about their Prime hybrids.

[Snow Drift]

Originally Posted by rallly 4

They continue to grow every year.

If you think an automobile manufacturer is living off of the past , you are misinformed. They spend tens of millions of dollars to continuously research and improve their products and future products based on hard market data.


Can you provide me an inkling of proof Toyota is holding out from billions of dollars being invested and complying with federal regulations because of their past?


This is the same company who has brought back the Supra, improved the GR86, and is now bringing GR series rally specials here.

Not sure if you have read this before. I've linked it many times. Toyota is stuck in the past bc their entire on-shore supplier ecosystem is dependent on Hybrid technology.

Read this:
https://electrek.co/2021/11/11/how-t...anda-in-japan/

Originally Posted by n2oiroc

They needed subaru and bmw to bring them to market, thanks for providing some good examples.

Yup. Toyota is known for making very simple cars. They could not handle the Supra or BRZ/FRS themselves. GR Yaris and GR Corolla are one-offs thanks to Toyoda-san kicking the engineers/bean counters in the butt.

[SCRAPPYDO]

To say Toyota could not handle anything is absolutely idiotic. They chose to share costs. To say they could not handle the engineering is laughable. Anybody who believes Toyota is not jumping in with both feet on EV because they lack ANYTHING in the way of knowhow has bought into the fallacy that EV are somehow more complex than an ICE vehicle. Which they are most certainly NOT.


Toyota has the resources, time, and knowhow to play the wait and see game for a LONG while. Hybrids are going to make sense to a LOT of people for a VERY long time.

The new Prius is going to absolutely put a dent into the lower end EV sales as it gives people a viable way to check the economy and virtue signal boxes at the same time for a very affordable price.

All of us armchair quarterbacks who do not operate the largest car company in the world need to take a bit of humble pie and see.

Toyota has made Le Mans and Formula 1 cars. They have more engineering prowess than the vast majority of the automakers. They offer us simpler cars for sure, but they have always been about reliability and quality over flashy gadgets.

To say Toyota needed Subaru is a crock of doo doo.

[bugatti0628]

Originally Posted by Snow Drift

That system is really complicated. 3 motors (2 Front, 1 Rear connected to the crankshaft), plus gas engine.

It can be much simpler:

STI could just put MG2 in the transmission (like Crosstrek), to allow for full time AWD via the planetary gear center differential (DCCD). Then MG1 would be a generator (like Crosstrek). Front helical is the same. Then a driveshaft connects to a rear LSD which uses twin clutch-packs for torque vectoring (a la Audi Sport Differential).

Biggest issue is finding a place for a sizeable battery pack. Crosstrek pack was tiny (8.8 kWh) vs Rav4 Prime (18 kWh).

that is a tried and true setup. But there was an article I read on a Japanese forum that showed them wanting to use the plug-in crosstrek to get around emissions. But according to subaru, that particular setup is not built for high performance applications in its current form. However that does not mean they can't make changes to it to accommodate high performance applications

[rallly 4]

Originally Posted by n2oiroc

toyota is living off their past reputation. they refuse to innovate or invest because their cult following will buy anything as long as it has the toyota badge on it. all of the japanese automakers are the same and living in the past.

They continue to grow every year.

If you think an automobile manufacturer is living off of the past , you are misinformed. They spend tens of millions of dollars to continuously research and improve their products and future products based on hard market data.


Can you provide me an inkling of proof Toyota is holding out from billions of dollars being invested and complying with federal regulations because of their past?


This is the same company who has brought back the Supra, improved the GR86, and is now bringing GR series rally specials here.

[n2oiroc]

Originally Posted by rallly 4

They continue to grow every year.

If you think an automobile manufacturer is living off of the past , you are misinformed. They spend tens of millions of dollars to continuously research and improve their products and future products based on hard market data.


Can you provide me an inkling of proof Toyota is holding out from billions of dollars being invested and complying with federal regulations because of their past?


This is the same company who has brought back the Supra, improved the GR86, and is now bringing GR series rally specials here.

most of their products aside from the hybrids are a decade behind everyone else. some cars just got carplay. toyota is capable, but they don't want to spend the money and they are stuck in their old mentality. watch some savagegeese reviews of toyota and lexus products. they sum it up perfectly. look at the new tundra. totally new truck and it's still inferior to the big 3 offerings.

[samagon]

Originally Posted by n2oiroc

most of their products aside from the hybrids are a decade behind everyone else. some cars just got carplay. toyota is capable, but they don't want to spend the money and they are stuck in their old mentality. watch some savagegeese reviews of toyota and lexus products. they sum it up perfectly. look at the new tundra. totally new truck and it's still inferior to the big 3 offerings.

don't mistake the slow update of consumer tech for a lack of technology and engineering across the brand.

active safety features for example, Toyota safety sense vs Subaru eyesight isn't even a contest. Subaru sucks, Toyota is light years ahead of anything Subaru has in this arena.

I know that's not fair because Eyesight is a bit lame (oops it's raining, you don't need any additional safety features now, I'm going to take a union break), but even compared against Honda, Toyota wins out in many comparison tests.

I get it, it's no Tesla autopilot, but is Tesla autopilot even Tesla autopilot? I think some of the active safety features for GM products require a subscription to take full advantage, so that's lame.

anyway, yeah, consumer tech has little to do with actual innovation.

[Snow Drift]

Originally Posted by SCRAPPYDO

To say Toyota could not handle anything is absolutely idiotic. They chose to share costs. To say they could not handle the engineering is laughable. Anybody who believes Toyota is not jumping in with both feet on EV because they lack ANYTHING in the way of knowhow has bought into the fallacy that EV are somehow more complex than an ICE vehicle. Which they are most certainly NOT.


Toyota has the resources, time, and knowhow to play the wait and see game for a LONG while. Hybrids are going to make sense to a LOT of people for a VERY long time.

The new Prius is going to absolutely put a dent into the lower end EV sales as it gives people a viable way to check the economy and virtue signal boxes at the same time for a very affordable price.

All of us armchair quarterbacks who do not operate the largest car company in the world need to take a bit of humble pie and see.

Toyota has made Le Mans and Formula 1 cars. They have more engineering prowess than the vast majority of the automakers. They offer us simpler cars for sure, but they have always been about reliability and quality over flashy gadgets.

To say Toyota needed Subaru is a crock of doo doo.

Toyota didn't pay BMW or Subaru to develop their sports cars for fun, they did it because Toyota couldn't or wouldn't invest in-house. BMW didn't come and beg them to develop a Supra and Z4. BMW can do that themselves.

Subaru didn't ask for a RWD coupe, they were partnered with for their engineering prowess, factory line space, etc.

Toyota did some design work.

Originally Posted by samagon

don't mistake the slow update of consumer tech for a lack of technology and engineering across the brand.

active safety features for example, Toyota safety sense vs Subaru eyesight isn't even a contest. Subaru sucks, Toyota is light years ahead of anything Subaru has in this arena.

I know that's not fair because Eyesight is a bit lame (oops it's raining, you don't need any additional safety features now, I'm going to take a union break), but even compared against Honda, Toyota wins out in many comparison tests.

I get it, it's no Tesla autopilot, but is Tesla autopilot even Tesla autopilot? I think some of the active safety features for GM products require a subscription to take full advantage, so that's lame.

anyway, yeah, consumer tech has little to do with actual innovation.

Toyota is using Mobileye for ADAS. Subaru did it in-house. Multiple cameras are superior to 1.

[Snow Drift]

Originally Posted by bugatti0628

that is a tried and true setup. But there was an article I read on a Japanese forum that showed them wanting to use the plug-in crosstrek to get around emissions. But according to subaru, that particular setup is not built for high performance applications in its current form. However that does not mean they can't make changes to it to accommodate high performance applications

I can believe that, the Crosstrek PHEV was a dog (although quicker than the 2.0L ICE). It's a starting point if they want. Frankly, I'd take a BEV STI over a PHEV. Or just give us a manual ICE until it is extinct (I mean, give it back!).

[SCRAPPYDO]

Originally Posted by Snow Drift

Toyota didn't pay BMW or Subaru to develop their sports cars for fun, they did it because Toyota couldn't or wouldn't invest in-house. BMW didn't come and beg them to develop a Supra and Z4. BMW can do that themselves.

Subaru didn't ask for a RWD coupe, they were partnered with for their engineering prowess, factory line space, etc.

Toyota did some design work.



Toyota is using Mobileye for ADAS. Subaru did it in-house. Multiple cameras are superior to 1.

unless it rains, then it gives up. Subaru eyesight is not horrible. But it is not class leading by any measure.

Toyota choosing to do somethings outside of the house of Toyota is an interesting debate. There is an ocean of difference between couldn't build something and wouldn't build something.

Supra and GR86 are not money makers for Toyota. Why foot the bill for something that will not make much if any profit.

More likely, Toyota decided to share the costs on a car that would not make much in sales. Half the time to get ROI straight. Seems like a business case to me.

If you are suggesting that Toyota couldn't build an engine for the Supra, then I think you just a bit mistaken. More likley is your second assumption, in which they wouldn't build it as it has no use in any other product.

Switching gears. Subaru absolutely would not have a BRZ without Toyota in any form. For many of the same reasons. The payoff does not warrant the investment.

[samagon]

Originally Posted by Snow Drift

Toyota is using Mobileye for ADAS. Subaru did it in-house. Multiple cameras are superior to 1.

looks like Subaru would have been better off finding a partner. good on Toyota for understanding their limitations and partnering with a company to design what they needed to have for a far superior system.

it's not a failure to partner with someone else to make something better together than could be made on their own.

[Snow Drift]

Originally Posted by SCRAPPYDO

unless it rains, then it gives up. Subaru eyesight is not horrible. But it is not class leading by any measure.

Toyota choosing to do somethings outside of the house of Toyota is an interesting debate. There is an ocean of difference between couldn't build something and wouldn't build something.

Supra and GR86 are not money makers for Toyota. Why foot the bill for something that will not make much if any profit.

More likely, Toyota decided to share the costs on a car that would not make much in sales. Half the time to get ROI straight. Seems like a business case to me.

If you are suggesting that Toyota couldn't build an engine for the Supra, then I think you just a bit mistaken. More likley is your second assumption, in which they wouldn't build it as it has no use in any other product.

Switching gears. Subaru absolutely would not have a BRZ without Toyota in any form. For many of the same reasons. The payoff does not warrant the investment.

I've yet to see a crash test showing Eyesight was nothing but as good or superior. In the early days they were the only one who would avoid the crash. Mobileye was ditched by Tesla for a reason, you need more than 1 camera.

IIRC, Subaru does not use radar. So, if it can't see it disconnects. Perhaps it's just truthful and Mobileye stays engaged but isn't useful. I don't see rain based tests.

Originally Posted by samagon

looks like Subaru would have been better off finding a partner. good on Toyota for understanding their limitations and partnering with a company to design what they needed to have for a far superior system.

it's not a failure to partner with someone else to make something better together than could be made on their own.

Eyesight does excellent on tests. No sure what you mean. Two cameras are better than one. We have 2 eyes for a reason.

[rallly 4]

Won’t even bother replying to whoever it was that said Toyota couldn’t do xyz. They are the biggest auto company in the world. If you think they are stupid take a look in the mirror

[bugatti0628]

Originally Posted by Snow Drift

I can believe that, the Crosstrek PHEV was a dog (although quicker than the 2.0L ICE). It's a starting point if they want. Frankly, I'd take a BEV STI over a PHEV. Or just give us a manual ICE until it is extinct (I mean, give it back!).

I agree, all electric would have instant torque from a stop. Look at the lucid air electric car. No don't PHEV the sti, HEV it until the all electric is ready to be unleashed on the market. We just to wait for them to release a concept car with the new body and propulsion system.