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Old 10-11-2007, 07:11 PM   #1
BIGSKYWRX
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Default How about a ST* exhaust database in regards to the "clarification"

In light of the recent "clarification" it would be nice to have known combos that "work" ie no P0420 cel (and no defeat) even combos that don't might be helpful.

I tried moving the O2 sensor behind the 3rd oe cat (this is w/ a catless shorty) in hopes it might quell the P0420- it lasted a couple of days and then it lit up

Chris's combo - a Random cat in a shorty downpipe combined w/ a Random mid-pipe cat w/ the O2 sensor downstream of both cats appears that it will work ( I think he had over 2500 miles and several autox runs w/o any light) http://www.xcceleration.com/itemdetails.cfm83.htm

It would be nice to know if any of the catted downpipes on their own would work or even possibly some of the mid pipe catted pieces on their own- that would trim cost and possibly leave a pony or two on the table.

TIA

Mike
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Old 10-11-2007, 08:24 PM   #2
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Well I'm all for it. I'm moving into STX class for next season with my wagon.

So the 'clarification' (it's not a take-back *wink*) is going to stick? Is there real action in the works or just rumors of action? Any possibility of a re-clarification? I was really hoping there would be an ST* protest-fest at Nationals because now I'm more confused than before the clarification.
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Old 10-11-2007, 10:42 PM   #3
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(05 STi in STU)

I put on a stromung divorced wastegate downpipe and a mad dad catted midpipe with the o2 bung after the cat about a month ago, and haven't thrown a CEL yet.

It seems to make good power and it is a full 3" combo.

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Old 10-11-2007, 10:49 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianGT View Post
(05 STi in STU)

I put on a stromung divorced wastegate downpipe and a mad dad catted midpipe with the o2 bung after the cat about a month ago, and haven't thrown a CEL yet.

It seems to make good power and it is a full 3" combo.

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What ECU management are you using? And just trying to clarify... any CEL code defeats?
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Old 10-11-2007, 11:51 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by 68Cadillac View Post
What ECU management are you using? And just trying to clarify... any CEL code defeats?
I have an access port v2, and have been running the stock base map to see if I will throw CELs.

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Old 10-11-2007, 11:19 PM   #6
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Brian- thanks. If one good cat would do the trick, this could make the clarification a little easier on a bunch of us
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Old 10-12-2007, 01:52 AM   #7
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helix catted downpipe on the STI no cels or defeats.
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Old 10-12-2007, 09:29 AM   #8
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thank you sir that's good news indeed
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Old 10-12-2007, 09:46 AM   #9
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I think one of your big keys for this is going to be the "Are you REALLY sure that you have no defeats in your map?" for everyone who is using any non-stock ECU tuning, with the follow up question of "Have you used\borrowed a Tactrix cable and actually checked?". I know that Greg's car seemed to be a legal setup until we looked into his map and saw that his CELs were disabled even though the tune had been specifically requested to leave them in.

And I'd like to point out that the RX-8 STILL isn't competitive in STU so you should expect further takebacks in the class.
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Old 10-12-2007, 11:55 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilC View Post
And I'd like to point out that the RX-8 STILL isn't competitive in STU so you should expect further takebacks in the class.
I still believe the car has some competition potential in STU, I just think we need a sample size greater than one in order to get a better idea whether that's true.
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Old 10-12-2007, 03:31 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilC View Post
I think one of your big keys for this is going to be the "Are you REALLY sure that you have no defeats in your map?" for everyone who is using any non-stock ECU tuning, with the follow up question of "Have you used\borrowed a Tactrix cable and actually checked?". I know that Greg's car seemed to be a legal setup until we looked into his map and saw that his CELs were disabled even though the tune had been specifically requested to leave them in.

And I'd like to point out that the RX-8 STILL isn't competitive in STU so you should expect further takebacks in the class.
Very true, very true. You need to make sure there not checked if it is indeed a custom tune.

After Phil told me, I had them unchecked, logged 500 miles on a Cobb catted with no 420 code. I think a new o2 has more to do with it than anything. I also had a brand new EGT. I was however getting a random lean code, the car has 80,000 miles, finally changed the MAF and seemed to take care of it.

I will be staying in STX next year and because of that I will be looking for a more reliable set up. I'm going to weld a bigger hi-flo into the cobb downpipe also simulating the stock o2 location see if it's any more or less finicky.

The end result is you could put a cat on big enough for a dump truck and if the rear o2 didn't like it's posistion you're screwed.

For the record I was in ready state with no codes for Nats'. Much ado about nothing. I find it interesting that no one's looking for a solution to the egt (not that I have one, a solution that is). Everyone knows it could at any time trip on limit.

Great thread Big Sky. I will keep updating over the winter. Subscribed!

Greg

Last edited by mccanixx; 10-12-2007 at 03:40 PM.
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Old 10-12-2007, 04:55 PM   #12
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I don't think a protest committee would be concerned if your EGT sensor failed during an AutoX. It isn't like an O2 sensor - which is what they are using to determine legality. How do you check for a "ready-state"? I have a cable and a computer, but I only know how to read OBDII codes.

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Originally Posted by mccanixx View Post
Very true, very true. You need to make sure there not checked if it is indeed a custom tune.

After Phil told me, I had them unchecked, logged 500 miles on a Cobb catted with no 420 code. I think a new o2 has more to do with it than anything. I also had a brand new EGT. I was however getting a random lean code, the car has 80,000 miles, finally changed the MAF and seemed to take care of it.

I will be staying in STX next year and because of that I will be looking for a more reliable set up. I'm going to weld a bigger hi-flo into the cobb downpipe also simulating the stock o2 location see if it's any more or less finicky.

The end result is you could put a cat on big enough for a dump truck and if the rear o2 didn't like it's posistion you're screwed.

For the record I was in ready state with no codes for Nats'. Much ado about nothing. I find it interesting that no one's looking for a solution to the egt (not that I have one, a solution that is). Everyone knows it could at any time trip on limit.

Great thread Big Sky. I will keep updating over the winter. Subscribed!

Greg
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Old 10-12-2007, 05:02 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GreasedLightning View Post
I don't think a protest committee would be concerned if your EGT sensor failed during an AutoX. It isn't like an O2 sensor - which is what they are using to determine legality. How do you check for a "ready-state"? I have a cable and a computer, but I only know how to read OBDII codes.
I bought an Auto Tap program (from summit, the $199.00 version), which shows if you are ready/non-ready. One of the few expenses I incurred prior to nationals. Oh besides the transmission.


You would have to seperate the EGT from emissions monitoring. Which I don't think you can as it is linked to the OBDII. It still plays a part.

They are using the ODBII as legality, by letter at least. That's my interpretation.

my .02

Last edited by mccanixx; 10-13-2007 at 06:57 AM.
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Old 10-12-2007, 09:54 AM   #14
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good point, might be worth while knowing how long cel free as well


I know Cobb posted up a new STX map w/ no cel defeat, nit sure on a STU map- also there was some debate about the base map having the cel defeat or not- would definitely be worth checking into that

Phil- would delta dash show if there was a cel defeat? What exactly does the Tatrix cable show?
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Old 10-12-2007, 10:29 AM   #15
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Cobb catted DP. 20,000 miles without throwing a 420 and suddenly it threw one:furious

I drove 3000 miles to Kansas and back, and the CEL came on twice. I figured out that it only came on if I used the cruise control at very low revs. so I stopped doing that and it did not come on again.

Car was in a cat-ready condition for the actual race
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Old 10-29-2007, 08:11 PM   #16
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As we get into the cold season it may be increasingly difficult to keep the P0420's at bay. Fliz mentioned this in one of his previous posts, so keep in mind the ambient temperature and your cat's temperature before you do any steady state cruising. I don't believe that some of the CEL's would be occurring if it were the middle of summer. The cat's are just less efficient at colder temps...
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Old 10-12-2007, 10:14 AM   #17
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Delta wouldn't show a thing from my understanding. With the Tactrix you can download the BIN file and look at the actual registers in the image to see if they are disabled or not. ECUExplorer\Enginuity let you see if they're set or not. This also lets you look at boost target and WGDC tables to see if your tune is ACTUALLY ST* legal.

Since I'm not an AP user and don't know all the details I may be wrong on this but I've been told that those registers are part of your basemap and not your realtime map. That means that you can no longer even think about having your ST* legal map as your realtime it's got to be your base map (ignoring the argument over whether it was ever legal to use it only as a realtime).
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Old 10-12-2007, 12:15 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilC View Post
Since I'm not an AP user and don't know all the details I may be wrong on this but I've been told that those registers are part of your basemap and not your realtime map. That means that you can no longer even think about having your ST* legal map as your realtime it's got to be your base map (ignoring the argument over whether it was ever legal to use it only as a realtime).
Yes, it is the basemap that can enable/disable CELs. The basemap must be STU legal, as well as the livemap (if any). In my case I have a STU base map, and a live map which is the same tune. (just as a way to make sure my 'street' live map is gone)
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Old 10-29-2007, 07:57 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilC View Post

Since I'm not an AP user and don't know all the details I may be wrong on this but I've been told that those registers are part of your basemap and not your realtime map. That means that you can no longer even think about having your ST* legal map as your realtime it's got to be your base map (ignoring the argument over whether it was ever legal to use it only as a realtime).

Good point. I would say that a large percentage of the access port base maps out there are NOT ST legal. When I had my car retuned following the clarification, Jorge made two custom basemaps for me, both STX legal (One for 93 octane the other for 100 octane). The basemaps had the CEL defeats removed.

Commentary:
Until recently all of the accessport off the shelf base maps (which is what most tuners use as a starting point for "protuning") had some of the CEL's defeated. Protuning usually consists of writing a realtime map to tweak some of the parameters of the tune, but many of the basemap parameters can't be adjusted in the realtime map.

I believe that COBB may be producing a basemap with all the CEL's enabled now (anyone confirm this?). If that is true and they didn't do anything else to affect boost then that would be a better alternative; allowing people to get protuned and have multiple realtime maps while still remaining legal. So people don't have to reflash their basemaps before and after each event when they run 100 octane fuel.

Last edited by FTD; 10-30-2007 at 07:04 PM. Reason: 93 octane, not 94
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Old 10-12-2007, 11:53 AM   #20
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I have an APS turboback with the gigantic APS cat. I'm in a very similar situation as Max, the car is fine for months then it will randomly throw a P0420, usually cruising on the highway. (I stood over the shoulder of the tuner as he made the base map, so I know all the CELs are enabled)

James' 06 has the new CARB-certified Perrin double-cat downpipe, and the car has not thrown a CEL with it. (he got CELs with the Cobb that he previously had)

Last edited by Funky; 10-12-2007 at 11:58 AM.
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Old 11-29-2007, 10:05 AM   #21
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James' 06 has the new CARB-certified Perrin double-cat downpipe, and the car has not thrown a CEL with it.
Got a link? I don't see this on Perrin's website.
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Old 11-29-2007, 10:32 AM   #22
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Got a link? I don't see this on Perrin's website.
Here you go!

http://www.perrinperformance.com/pro...gory=6&model=2

I have both the front and rear peices. The rear cat is downstream of the O2 so I don't think it's necesary. Jeff (Perrin) was pretty confident that the first cat will be enough to keep the ecu happy. I will likely remove the second one this winter. It must have something to do with the cat being closer to the turbo and therfore getting more heat.

James
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Old 11-29-2007, 10:40 AM   #23
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Here you go!

http://www.perrinperformance.com/pro...gory=6&model=2

I have both the front and rear peices. The rear cat is downstream of the O2 so I don't think it's necesary. Jeff (Perrin) was pretty confident that the first cat will be enough to keep the ecu happy. I will likely remove the second one this winter. It must have something to do with the cat being closer to the turbo and therfore getting more heat.

James
Cool, thanks. I think this is the cheapest 2-cat solution so far so I am definitely interested

john
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Old 11-29-2007, 03:07 PM   #24
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In the above example, if one were to move the rear O2 sensor behind the second cat, how would you do it? I don't think the wire is long enough.
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Old 12-03-2007, 06:16 PM   #25
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Here you go!

http://www.perrinperformance.com/pro...gory=6&model=2

I have both the front and rear peices. The rear cat is downstream of the O2 so I don't think it's necesary. Jeff (Perrin) was pretty confident that the first cat will be enough to keep the ecu happy. I will likely remove the second one this winter. It must have something to do with the cat being closer to the turbo and therfore getting more heat.

James
Quote:
Originally Posted by Perrin's website
If your factory catalysts are tired, broken or missing PERRIN™ now offers a replacement catalytic converter that is approved for all states that do not require CARB approval.
I've never claimed to be terribly smart , but someone clarify what I'm reading in that quote... "approved for all states that DO NOT require CARB approval".

It sounds like it's saying it's not CARB approved to me, only '49-state'... but again, maybe I'm just reading it wrong? Wasn't the recent re-re-clarifica-rule-changX0Rz invoking the CARB bits as well?, or am I just mis-remembering something?


cliffs: I thought any replacement setups had to be CARB approved.
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