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Old 11-30-2007, 06:22 PM   #51
BIGSKYWRX
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^ where exactly is the APS cat located (and where is the bung for the O2 sensor)?

thanks
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Old 12-02-2007, 01:42 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by BIGSKYWRX View Post
^ where exactly is the APS cat located (and where is the bung for the O2 sensor)?

thanks


The cat is just about where the 1st cat is in the stock exhaust. It's just after the cast iron part of the downpipe or "turbo outlet" as APS call it.

The O2 sensor bung is just after the cat. (it's actually much closer to the turbo then in the stock downpipe.)

As you can see in the photo this is when I had the mechanical CEL fix installed. This is just after I had installed the exhaust last year.

Another pic of just the cat: http://solberg.umd.edu/STi/aps/IMG_2807-800.JPG
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Old 12-02-2007, 01:51 PM   #53
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ahhh- thanks

you'd think w/ the cat that far upstream (ala oe) it should be pretty effective in regards to "cleaning"- interesting they move the O2 sensor forward
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Old 12-02-2007, 05:03 PM   #54
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^ thinking about this a bit- is having the 02 sensor that close to the cat the "best" place to be- obviously the oe bung is further down stream

any chance that moving it further downstream (closer to the oe location) might help w/ the occasional cel the APS setup sees? or would that make it more likely to go off?
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Old 12-02-2007, 08:21 PM   #55
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I've run a Helix catted downpipe for three years and never had a CEL. On both an 04 STI and an 07 STI - same downpipe.
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Old 12-02-2007, 08:39 PM   #56
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^ looks like it might have been discontinued- no longer on Helix's site either
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Old 12-02-2007, 09:07 PM   #57
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Maddad's dual cat setup with the o2 bung after the cats should get the job done.

http://www.daddysscp.com/dcart4/prod...&cat=10&page=1

Last edited by sleepyfu; 12-03-2007 at 07:55 PM.
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Old 12-02-2007, 09:46 PM   #58
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I recently emailed Buschur about my catted turboback exhaust. I have only run in local events so far, and I have the technically illegal cobb accessport setup with a stage 2 basemap with CEL defeat, and the STU 100 octane map as a realtime.

I asked Buschur if they had any CEL complaints from customers running the catted turboback without any CEL defeats. They claimed they had never received a CEL-related complaint for that exhaust. The Buschur downpipe has the cat up near the turbo, and the O2 bung in the back at more or less the stock location.

I could theoretically switch the accessport to run the 100 octane STU map without CEL defeat as the basemap, and run the stage 2 91 octane map as a realtime for the street. I can then load the STU map as a realtime at events and be 100% legal, as well as test for emissions CELs while driving on the street. I will need to call Cobb to see if there will be any unintended consequences, though.
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Old 12-03-2007, 11:58 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by cgroppi View Post
I recently emailed Buschur about my catted turboback exhaust. I have only run in local events so far, and I have the technically illegal cobb accessport setup with a stage 2 basemap with CEL defeat, and the STU 100 octane map as a realtime.

I asked Buschur if they had any CEL complaints from customers running the catted turboback without any CEL defeats. They claimed they had never received a CEL-related complaint for that exhaust. The Buschur downpipe has the cat up near the turbo, and the O2 bung in the back at more or less the stock location.

I could theoretically switch the accessport to run the 100 octane STU map without CEL defeat as the basemap, and run the stage 2 91 octane map as a realtime for the street. I can then load the STU map as a realtime at events and be 100% legal, as well as test for emissions CELs while driving on the street. I will need to call Cobb to see if there will be any unintended consequences, though.
When AP's first came out, I had one. I asked about that very same thing (running a 'lower' stage base and a 'higher' stage realtime). They said "don't do that". I can't recall whatever the specific reason was, but that was directly from Cobb... I posted on their forum and got an answer from one of their folks. The gist was: the basemap needs to be >= whatever realtime maps you want to run.

If something has changed since, what was it... 2004?, then who knows.. just repeating what I was told.

So, yeah, definitely call Cobb first, then report back here for everyone else's benefit I don't run an AP now (or any EM)... stock as a rock, mostly b/c I'm both too lazy to mod the car anymore, and don't wish to muck with all the hassle and whining in ST (and I don't even go to Nats). Considering that John Hale kicks everyone's asses in all of TX in a virtually bone-stock car (in STU), I got no reason to think I need EM yet! Not sure exactly what that says about us or him!,...
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Old 12-03-2007, 06:16 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by qcslvr30 View Post
Here you go!

http://www.perrinperformance.com/pro...gory=6&model=2

I have both the front and rear peices. The rear cat is downstream of the O2 so I don't think it's necesary. Jeff (Perrin) was pretty confident that the first cat will be enough to keep the ecu happy. I will likely remove the second one this winter. It must have something to do with the cat being closer to the turbo and therfore getting more heat.

James
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Originally Posted by Perrin's website
If your factory catalysts are tired, broken or missing PERRIN™ now offers a replacement catalytic converter that is approved for all states that do not require CARB approval.
I've never claimed to be terribly smart , but someone clarify what I'm reading in that quote... "approved for all states that DO NOT require CARB approval".

It sounds like it's saying it's not CARB approved to me, only '49-state'... but again, maybe I'm just reading it wrong? Wasn't the recent re-re-clarifica-rule-changX0Rz invoking the CARB bits as well?, or am I just mis-remembering something?


cliffs: I thought any replacement setups had to be CARB approved.
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Old 12-03-2007, 06:25 PM   #61
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AFAIK, the rule-ification is "can't throw a CEL, can't do anything that hides a CEL"

I don't think it's linked to CARB and it's definitely not linked to actual federal law since you are not allowed to remove a functioning catalytic converter without explicit permission, ever.

john
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Old 12-03-2007, 06:27 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by ButtDyno View Post
AFAIK, the rule-ification is "can't throw a CEL, can't do anything that hides a CEL"

I don't think it's linked to CARB and it's definitely not linked to actual federal law since you are not allowed to remove a functioning catalytic converter without explicit permission, ever.

john
So, was the bit about the cat having to have 'the stamp' only w/respect to STS?

I swear I read something like that, just can't remember exactly... that whole argument on sccaforums is retarded-long and such.. it sent me scurrying for beer and pretzels a few times.. which lead directly to unconsciousness
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Old 12-03-2007, 09:30 PM   #63
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the STS change was more stringent- "oe" replacement cat IIRC
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Old 12-11-2007, 12:06 PM   #64
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When AP's first came out, I had one. I asked about that very same thing (running a 'lower' stage base and a 'higher' stage realtime). They said "don't do that". I can't recall whatever the specific reason was, but that was directly from Cobb... I posted on their forum and got an answer from one of their folks. The gist was: the basemap needs to be >= whatever realtime maps you want to run.

If something has changed since, what was it... 2004?, then who knows.. just repeating what I was told.

So, yeah, definitely call Cobb first, then report back here for everyone else's benefit I don't run an AP now (or any EM)... stock as a rock, mostly b/c I'm both too lazy to mod the car anymore, and don't wish to muck with all the hassle and whining in ST (and I don't even go to Nats). Considering that John Hale kicks everyone's asses in all of TX in a virtually bone-stock car (in STU), I got no reason to think I need EM yet! Not sure exactly what that says about us or him!,...
I just talked with Cobb about this. They said it would not be a problem to run the STU map as a basemap and the stage 2 as the realtime, keeping in mind that losing battery power would revert you to the STU map, which could be bad. They did suggest driving the car conservatively with the stage 2 as realtime.

With this information, I would probably reflash like this a couple of weeks before any national level event, so the car gets driven long enough to report emissions ready. Also, it would be a way to test out a TBE to see if it throws any CELs. You could do that by uninstalling the accessport as well, but you'd have to drive the car conservatively with that setup too.
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Old 12-11-2007, 12:19 PM   #65
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I just drive with the "Stock" map as base, and flash on the STU map as realtime.
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Old 12-11-2007, 02:45 PM   #66
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I just talked with Cobb about this. They said it would not be a problem to run the STU map as a basemap and the stage 2 as the realtime,
Quote:
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They did suggest driving the car conservatively with the stage 2 as realtime.


It's not a problem, but you have to drive conservatively when you have the Stage 2 map on there? That sounds like a problem to me.
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Old 12-11-2007, 02:47 PM   #67
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I've been scouring some older threads in the engine section and folks are talking about passing emissions testing w/ one cat and a cel delete (ecu)- if the ecu deletes the cel (or fools it w/ a signal?) does this show up as not "emissions ready"? You would think that part of the testing (come from a non-testing state) in addition to any sniffing would be is the car "emissions ready"

My question boils down to- does a ecu "fix" show up as non OBDII compliant- has anyone checked this? Not looking away around the disabling of the cel, just curious if it can even be detected.
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Old 12-11-2007, 03:57 PM   #68
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It's not a problem, but you have to drive conservatively when you have the Stage 2 map on there? That sounds like a problem to me.
I didn't expect anything else, other than that CYA response. I seriously doubt they would ever say doing something like this is 100% guaranteed OK.

I would like to see what the maps actually have in them. My feeling is that the basemap features of the STU map will be identical to the stage 2 map. All the real tuning is in the realtime part of the maps anyway. This is what always bugged me about the decision that it's not legal to run stage 2 basemap with STU realtime (excepting the CEL defeat of course). All the boost tables are in the realtime part of the map. Running stage 2 base plus STU realtime retains stock boost settings. Somehow, it was decided this was not good enough.

I'm going to ask my local shop if they can open the maps with the protuner software and compare them. I want to see what differences there actually are between stage 2 and STU for the basemap specific values. If the basemap specific values match, than it will not matter what order the maps are run. If they are different, I can at least tell what is changed.

You can use the stock map as a basemap, but you would be missing out on some tuning done to closed loop tables that are included when running the 100 octane as a basemap. I don't know how significant these changes are. Cobb implies in the release notes that there is a big difference, but I don't understand the details.
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Old 12-12-2007, 09:18 AM   #69
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^^ looks like the turboxs stealthback downpipe would be workable- good to know thanks
FWIW - when I had my catted stealthback on with a Prodrive muffler and the stock uppipe/header back in 03, I was getting P0420's under similar conditions as others (extended cruising at fixed speeds/throttle).

One of the options I'm thinking about for next year is to get TXS to fabricate something either with the cat in a different location closer to the turbo or two cats (since TXS is local and can do these sorts of things). The Buschur is another one I'm looking at coz it's so light. It's just scary to think of spending $900+ on something that might end up not being legal

john
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Old 12-12-2007, 09:24 AM   #70
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^ I hear ya! I just bought a used Prodrive catted downpipe and catless center piece. I talked to a couple of guys who have run this combo sans any cel fix and (knock on wood) they haven't gotten any. If I were to throw one- I'll go to plan B and pick up a catted center pipe (O2 sensor rearward of the cat)
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Old 12-12-2007, 10:50 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by ButtDyno View Post
FIt's just scary to think of spending $900+ on something that might end up not being legal

john
That's the rub. You really can't guarantee ANY exhaust, other than stock, will be legal. I bought my Buschur just before all this hullabaloo started, so I'm stuck with it now. Even if I ran mine with no CEL defeats, and had no problems, that doesn't mean it will do the same for others with different model year STis or WRXs.
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Old 12-18-2007, 05:32 PM   #72
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IMO, since the rules are "competitor enforced" the whole clarification just doesn't make any sense. Seriously... if everyone is finding it to be a complete PITA - then why should we care? People in my region don't really care about super minor technicalities, and we just run our cars in the spirit of the class. For instance, my friend drives a Saturn with upgraded disc brakes in the rear... which is technically not STS legal. But, the discs were available on a later model year. So.... it really is legal, in the spirit of the rules.

IMO this whole OBDII clarification is so bogus. All it is doing is making people ditch their old setups and redo something for lots of $$$. In the end, either setup is probably netting the same horsepower in the end... there is such a small difference that I really don't think it makes any difference. Even at a national level.

I'm just running what I have for next season. It has a cat, and I checked with the people running STX next season with me and they don't care. I also am completely untuned so I am sure I am making way less power than anyone else's setup that has some form of tuning. I'm not planning on running nationals any time soon, but I would be very sad if someone put in a complaint about me, because I know there is truly no unfair advantage I have, as my car isn't even maxed out.

If we all think this is bogus then we should just go with the "old" rules and continue on like before. I personally don't have the money or time to redo my entire exhaust just to meet some silly rule that really doen't change anything about the car's capabilities.
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Old 12-18-2007, 06:54 PM   #73
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If we all think this is bogus then we should just go with the "old" rules and continue on like before. I personally don't have the money or time to redo my entire exhaust just to meet some silly rule that really doen't change anything about the car's capabilities.
define 'we'.

It only takes one person to set the pile of perched rocks tumbling.


I'm speaking on a national level, mind you. I don't think anyone should care about the impact upon local events.
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Old 12-18-2007, 07:30 PM   #74
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define 'we'.

It only takes one person to set the pile of perched rocks tumbling.


I'm speaking on a national level, mind you. I don't think anyone should care about the impact upon local events.

I guess "we" the people who are frustrated having to re-do their entire setup based on the clarification. I don't see how anyone here on the boards can possibly be overjoyed to scrap their entire setup and redo it... if so I can't imagine why. It seems like the clarification doesn't really help anyone get any sort of advantage.
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Old 12-18-2007, 07:38 PM   #75
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^ believe me the clarification was not brought up by anyone driving a Subaru

but obviously it's the Subaru's (and a few others) that it impacts most, I think it was an attempt to level a playing field that probably wasn't that unlevel to begin w/, either way it appears we are stuck w/ the "clarification"
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