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Old 11-06-2008, 04:43 PM   #201
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Ah. Clear as mud.

Downpipes: I have to change the one on my car eventually, so I was going to make an attempt to be legal while I was at it. No point in even making the attempt since 2 full years after the clarification, nothing is any clearer.

Heat shields: I think that they may go for the 'minimum amount necessary' wording, a la brake dust shields? At least that's what they should aim for...it would seem lightly consistent. Oh wait, that's not their goal at all. The turbo heat shield is a stupid item to focus on; no good can come of fooling with that to be honest (i.e. it offers no actual competitive advantage to futz with it...the only reason to focus on this is to try and force a change from an incorrect perspective....say use the turbo heat shield to force stock downpipes for example.) It's cutting away at most a few ounces of thin metal; less than the weight of a beer that they serve at awards.

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Old 11-06-2008, 06:45 PM   #202
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Don't take what I say as "It's useless to do anything"...

I now think that folks in the class know better what is ok and what is not. I don't normally say stuff like that, I usually have more confidence in those who volunteer their time to do a job I don't envy. BUT, when they take something simple, then make it so convoluted that a year later, there can still be debate about it, there comes a point where the folks in a class will simply just stop worrying about complying with it and stop worrying about protesting it.

I think the same of the heat shield issue. I believe most in the class think that trimming it to fit is ok, but removing it is not. Why, if they were going to bother to specifically mention the Subaru turbo heat shield in the first place, they did not simply say it like that, I will never know.
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Old 11-06-2008, 08:13 PM   #203
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Heh, it's much like having a rule that says we can reprogram the ECU, but you can't turn off the ODB codes in said program. However, you CAN alter the O2 sensor parameters in the program to be within the limits of activating the CEL.

Or, having the clarification about ODBII, not allowing resistor mods, but allowing you to replace your O2 sensor with ANY O2 sensor. So, what if I took an O2 sensor, made the resistors a part of it, and sold it as a Splashy O2 sensor? It would still be legal because the words ANY O2 sensor means just that... ANY O2 sensor.

OBD is a relative system. It depends on a sensor that reads a certain range, and a ECM that is programmed to test that signal to make sure it is in that range. Since we are basically allowed to futz with either end, using the CEL for enforcement is a moot point.

Last edited by Splash; 11-06-2008 at 08:21 PM.
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Old 11-06-2008, 08:17 PM   #204
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I harken back to the day (and it wasn't that long ago) that everyone understood the STX rules

to think that a "clarification" is what has totally muddled the entire situation seems very ironic
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Old 11-06-2008, 08:46 PM   #205
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Really, the clarification itself wasn't that complex. It's the ramifications of it that make it so.

Still, I harken back to the day when you could tell whether a car (or part) was illegal or not just by looking at it. DP not have a cat? Illegal. The cat nowhere near the original ones? Illegal. Simple, easy. The problem with this new stuff, is that seeing it isn't enough. It would be possible for every STX/U car at nationals to be illegal and nobody would know unless they were tested for the exact condition desired.

Back in the day, it was pretty simple to see something that might/should be/is illegal, and a protest would then be justified almost immediately. Now, you have to protest first and take a wild guess as to what exactly to file the protest for. THEN you find out if you were right. This change alone might make protesting for this stuff a non-worthwhile venture.

If anything, it opens the door for non-sportsmanlike protests. Imagine the poor sucker who has a battery or battery cable problem, fixes it for the 2nd day, just to get protested for ready-state because the protestor just so happened to walk by and see the battery disconnected and KNEW it would never be in ready state before the end of the event.

Last edited by Splash; 11-06-2008 at 08:58 PM.
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Old 11-06-2008, 11:32 PM   #206
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The reality at Nationals this year (and last), was that we were all so confused by the rule, that we all just went with what we thought was reasonable. Downpipe, check. High flo cat, check. Heat shield, who cares (the winners in 07 and 06 did not have one at all).

Whilst the rule maybe a joke, the competitors in STU are all reasonable people
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Old 11-06-2008, 11:39 PM   #207
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Actually, a few of discussed protesting the winner's lack of heatshield, but since Mr. Pinkie Punk's wife was super hot, we let him off
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Old 11-07-2008, 08:15 AM   #208
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Splash View Post
Really, the clarification itself wasn't that complex. It's the ramifications of it that make it so.

Still, I harken back to the day when you could tell whether a car (or part) was illegal or not just by looking at it. DP not have a cat? Illegal. The cat nowhere near the original ones? Illegal. Simple, easy. The problem with this new stuff, is that seeing it isn't enough. It would be possible for every STX/U car at nationals to be illegal and nobody would know unless they were tested for the exact condition desired.

Back in the day, it was pretty simple to see something that might/should be/is illegal, and a protest would then be justified almost immediately. Now, you have to protest first and take a wild guess as to what exactly to file the protest for. THEN you find out if you were right. This change alone might make protesting for this stuff a non-worthwhile venture.

If anything, it opens the door for non-sportsmanlike protests. Imagine the poor sucker who has a battery or battery cable problem, fixes it for the 2nd day, just to get protested for ready-state because the protestor just so happened to walk by and see the battery disconnected and KNEW it would never be in ready state before the end of the event.
Amen to that. I find it hugely stupid that for example Phil & Jen Croy had real, actual emissions tests with exhaust sniffer and could pass, yet were considered illegal from the SCCA's emissions standpoint because a light in the dash was considered more authoritative.

Plus I didn't know that folks were still considering the 'ready-state' nonsense. I mean really, that's an allowable protest? Or is that more Internet protesting?

-Biggly believes that SCCAforums is really just the home of the Internet Protest Committees
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Old 11-07-2008, 09:12 AM   #209
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Splash View Post
If anything, it opens the door for non-sportsmanlike protests. Imagine the poor sucker who has a battery or battery cable problem, fixes it for the 2nd day, just to get protested for ready-state because the protestor just so happened to walk by and see the battery disconnected and KNEW it would never be in ready state before the end of the event.
Tuesday morning at Nationals this year. Went to start to car to warm it up and it was dead. We rolled it out of the way for someone else in our camp on monday and turned the key to unlock the steering, never turned it back

That was the ONLY good thing I could say about not getting a single good clean or major mistake free run in between my co-driver and I. (at least on the first day, Ron ended up saving face and getting a decent run in on day 2)
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Old 11-07-2008, 09:45 AM   #210
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Quote:
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I'm not prone to conpiracy theories but, if they aren't trying to force stock DP's back onto these cars, they're doing a great job of making it sound like they are...
I'm pretty much convinced they're not intentionally doing anything. That's the confusing/frustrating part.

It's just a willy/nilly kneejerk reaction to someone saying yeah that was/is the intent of ST*.

Scenario:
APS long intake, creates lean condition when installed on car. Pops cel if driven without tuning. Tune car chance of CEL is gone, and it's obviously safer for the engine.

Same thing as the o2, latent chance of CEL is there. You've used one legal mod to perform something that is illegal, you've masked it or reduced the chance of occurence. That's the issue with the CEL thing as other have mentioned, battery, gas cap, maf sensor....etc, etc, etc.

I think Seb said it best last year. "It's the new 800 lb gorrila in the room everyone will just try to ignore"

Ultimately I see it more as trying to keep cars off of trailers (*SP). But that's just my opinion.

Last edited by mccanixx; 11-07-2008 at 09:52 AM.
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Old 11-07-2008, 01:46 PM   #211
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Some more weird data....My STX car has been retired, but it still has the STX exhaust which consists of a gutted uppipe, a Bosal divorced wastegate shorty DP, and custom from there back, with the single high flow cat AFTER the second O2 sensor.
After the clarification, I took out the EGT resistor and never threw a code because the car never got into ready mode (trailered).

I've been daily driving it for the past few months, and now it throws the EGT code sometimes, but still has not thrown a PO420.

This is using crap 91oct California gas.
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Old 11-07-2008, 06:18 PM   #212
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The ready-state debate came up because, during the initial reactions to the "clarifichange", someone suggested they just reset the ECU before your runs. It would take a while for any CEL to re-appear under such conditions.

As a result, they responded with statement that said ready-state condition was considered part of OBD compliance. In other words, should some protest you for emissions non-compliance, there would be two conditions you would have to meet.

1) status of the CEL light. If it's on, yer done (irregardless of what really caused it).

2) they'll check the ECU to make sure it's in ready state, which could have been used to mask a CEL-causing condition. If it's not in ready state, you fail.

I really hope this never has a chance to actually get tested, it will be a colossal mess if it does. There are 50 ways to test, and 51 ways to counter/get around them. In the end, the whole sh'bang would end up getting decided by the opinion of the Protest Committee, or then by the Appeals Committee. Either way, it's a bad situation.
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Old 11-07-2008, 06:24 PM   #213
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Great post....
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Old 03-31-2009, 01:31 PM   #214
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Any updates to CEL's? any success with single cat DP's? Any new dual cat DP's that are working out?

Also, has anyone ever thrown a CEL with a single catted DP and still had their catted uppipe?
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Old 03-31-2009, 02:39 PM   #215
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I get a misfire every once in a while. I think it happened twice last year. I have new plugs now and I don't think it's related to emissions.

My custom TurboXS downpipe is still going strong. I'll post the dyno charts when I get em.
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Old 03-31-2009, 08:20 PM   #216
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APS 3.5" turboback with MIL.SPEC 100 Cell Race cat and no CEL's after two events and about 500 miles of driving.
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Old 03-31-2009, 08:31 PM   #217
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Do you have an uppipe?

Do you have the APS high flow cat and the mil.spec cat or just the mil.spec???
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Old 03-31-2009, 11:02 PM   #218
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Quote:
Originally Posted by penderperson View Post
Any updates to CEL's? any success with single cat DP's? Any new dual cat DP's that are working out?

Also, has anyone ever thrown a CEL with a single catted DP and still had their catted uppipe?

STI, but I've had a MadDad 3rd cat and a non-catted downpipe for 6 months now and have yet to throw a CEL.

My old exhaust (with the o2 sensor in front of the only cat) threw a CEL at least once a week.
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Old 04-01-2009, 09:01 AM   #219
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Do u have an uppipe?

Do u have the APS high flow cat and the mil.spec cat or just the mil.spec???
2006 STi, stock uppipe. The APS 3.5" turboback is catless, so I'm running just the MIL.SPEC cat in the downpipe shortly after the turbo.


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Old 04-01-2009, 10:03 AM   #220
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STI, but I've had a MadDad 3rd cat and a non-catted downpipe for 6 months now and have yet to throw a CEL.

My old exhaust (with the o2 sensor in front of the only cat) threw a CEL at least once a week.
Been running the MadDad 3rd cat, catless dp, and gutted stock up since last spring. Threw 2 cel's in the last year, one after last years co-driver borrowed the car and filled it up with gas from some small town station, and one after switching from the stock airbox to a K&N typhoon (but there were more problems than just a cel that time...)
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Old 04-01-2009, 12:05 PM   #221
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have those people running a protune with uppipe and only one cat gotten the same number of CEL's? How about anyone who knows they have good gas??


So, since no one with a stock uppipe has had a problem, y is everyone running an uppipe?

Last edited by penderperson; 04-01-2009 at 12:14 PM. Reason: typo
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Old 10-06-2010, 11:24 PM   #222
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Bump.

Who is running only one cat on an STX WRX and avoiding CELs - or mostly avoiding CELs?

I'm contemplating optimizing the car a little better for next year... some combination of
* going to one cat
* going to Mil.spec super high flow cats
* doing the exhaust clarification wastegate thing

I figure if I'm going to do #3 I might as well evaluate the idea of doing the other two...
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Old 10-07-2010, 08:39 PM   #223
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I have a Speedtech Ceramic coated downpipe with the Magnaflow metal spun cat.
Injen up pipe with EGT, it kept backing out so I had to "adjust" the threads on the EGT to make it like an interference thread.

I have driven a maximum of about 70kms with the STX tune including street driving
and a Solopro school and I haven't had a single CEL.

It was protuned on Shell 91 octane (Canadian).

What is the exhaust wastegate thing ? Adjusting the rod ? I already have a pretty good
boost spike as is.
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