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Old 11-07-2019, 08:12 PM   #76
Kostamojen
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Originally Posted by godfather2112 View Post
How is it slim pickens for enthusiasts market. I legit donít think there has ever been more.
Reasonably priced market.

If you have like 60k-$300k to spend ya there are a lot of options right now. But even V8 Mustangs and Camaros are 50k+ these days, and all the special edition "cool" stuff is way way too expensive now.
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Old 11-07-2019, 08:34 PM   #77
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I think the criteria is feel. Everything is too refined and artificial. Efficient and predictable. Loading up the GTI and holding a skate toward the curb until the very last moment was none of those things. Just a bunch of crazy. Too much torques. Fun.
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Old 11-07-2019, 09:34 PM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kostamojen View Post
Reasonably priced market.

If you have like 60k-$300k to spend ya there are a lot of options right now. But even V8 Mustangs and Camaros are 50k+ these days, and all the special edition "cool" stuff is way way too expensive now.
Okay, and? Go back to the late 80’s - early to mid 90’s, pick several sports cars at msrp and adjust for inflation. I’d still venture to say there are more cars reasonably priced now than there were back then.

Edit: Also spec them the same. Cars only get expensive now once you start adding features / comfort packages.

Just for reference, a 1989 base 240sx would be almost $28k today. A base 1993 Toyota Supra would be $70k today. Just need to put pricing into perspective.

Last edited by godfather2112; 11-07-2019 at 10:32 PM.
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Old 11-07-2019, 10:48 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by godfather2112 View Post
Okay, and? Go back to the late 80ís - early to mid 90ís, pick several sports cars at msrp and adjust for inflation. Iíd still venture to say there are more cars reasonably priced now than there were back then.

Edit: Also spec them the same. Cars only get expensive now once you start adding features / comfort packages.

Just for reference, a 1989 base 240sx would be almost $28k today. A base 1993 Toyota Supra would be $70k today. Just need to put pricing into perspective.
I'm pretty sure Dex is referring to more recent times.

Just look at Subaru. Yes, they have the WRX and BRZ and the new S209 that we finally get. But lets look at the year 2005...

WRX sedan, WRX wagon, STI, Legacy GT sedan with a manual, Legacy GT Wagon with a manual, Outback XT with a manual, Forester Turbo with a manual, Baja Turbo with a manual, and of course all the non-turbos with manuals too, and all of which "fun" cars and under $30k minus the STI.

Just recently we lost quite a few models. Focus ST gone, Fiesta ST gone, Focus RS gone, Fiat 500 Abarth gone, Forester Turbo gone, Audi TT is in its last year, Beetle is going. None of which have replacements coming. More and more crossovers are taking their place.

Luckily Hyundai/Kia/Genesis are stepping up these last couple years.
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Old 11-07-2019, 11:31 PM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kostamojen View Post
I'm pretty sure Dex is referring to more recent times.

Just look at Subaru. Yes, they have the WRX and BRZ and the new S209 that we finally get. But lets look at the year 2005...

WRX sedan, WRX wagon, STI, Legacy GT sedan with a manual, Legacy GT Wagon with a manual, Outback XT with a manual, Forester Turbo with a manual, Baja Turbo with a manual, and of course all the non-turbos with manuals too, and all of which "fun" cars and under $30k minus the STI.

Just recently we lost quite a few models. Focus ST gone, Fiesta ST gone, Focus RS gone, Fiat 500 Abarth gone, Forester Turbo gone, Audi TT is in its last year, Beetle is going. None of which have replacements coming. More and more crossovers are taking their place.

Luckily Hyundai/Kia/Genesis are stepping up these last couple years.
Yes, this is what I was meaning to say. We have offerings, but not like we used to. Most cars have so much detachment between the driver and the control systems, and they are artificially trying to reattach it.

I'm sure us consumers are partially responsible, but they are trying to make enthusiasts car dual purpose. Let's use the DC2 ITR for example: loads of feedback and stimulation. The price paid for that? Loud ride, sucky audio, zero features, and optional AC. Today's equivalent tries to hard to be a comfortable (enough) daily driver with all the feyixins, and also a race car when you want it to be. The R is an extreme example, but what im getting at is every company is trying to make the swiss army sports car, and the results mostly seem to lack earnest feel. I know there are lots of other reasons why, and I know the days of the raw racer like the ITR are gone (unless you have GT3/Shelby money) but the middle ground seems to be vanishing fast.

It would be nice to have some more options in the under 30k price range. For now I'm planning keeping my paid off FWD joy machine, and getting a used M3 or something of the early 2000s or older range to fill my RWD itch. I'm getting sick of being disappointed with all the new offerings.

Excuse the typos, I'm tired and don't care to proofread on my phone. Goodnight Gentlemen.
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Old 11-07-2019, 11:57 PM   #81
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So now we’re narrowing it down the smallest window of 2002-2005/6 and with Subaru making up the majority of the list as “sports cars?” Also, shame on your for putting the beetle as a sports car. Seems like we’re sorta moving the goal post here just a wee bit. I mean, we now have these cars which are under $50k

Audi:
A3/S3
A4/S4
A5/S5

BMW:
M235i

Chevy
Camaro Turbo & V8

Fiat
Spider

Ford
Mustang Ecoboost
Mustang GT

Honda
Civic Type R

Hyundai
Veloster N

Infiniti
Q60

Jaguar
F Type

Kia
Stinger (maybe a stretch on this one)

Mazda
Miata

Mercedes
C43AMG

Nissan
370z

Subaru
Wrx
Sti

Toyota
BRZ
Z4 Hardtop, I mean Supra

VW
GTI
R


Cars we had back during that limited time frame you gave that we no longer have that would be fun
Legacy turbo and spec b
Evo
S2000

I mean, there’s a **** ton of cars offering performance within realistic price ranges from $25k to $50k, maybe $55k. The camaro and mustang were complete dog**** back then. Maybe it’s subjective, but I think there are more performance cars now within a realistic range than before and with a **** ton more features.

Last edited by godfather2112; 11-08-2019 at 12:20 AM.
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Old 11-08-2019, 12:25 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by godfather2112 View Post
So now weíre narrowing it down the smallest window of 2002-2005/6 and with Subaru making up the majority of the list as ďsports cars?Ē Also, shame on your for putting the beetle as a sports car. Seems like weíre sorta moving the goal post here just a wee bit.
Don't start on the whole 2 seat roadster sportscar definition BS...

The point was automakers are cutting down on "enthusiast" cars in the adorable segment. Ford eliminated ALL of them outside the Mustang. Chevy did the same awhile ago with eliminating Pontiac and the SS sedan and all of Holden. Nissan has gone to generic car hell taking Infiniti with it. Mazda has the Miata still but the ND price has balooned and no signs of anything Mazdaspeed in the works. Honda luckily brought the CTR but the S2000 has been gone for awhile and Acura has garbage outside the crazy priced NSX.

The enthusiast market is for the rich now.
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Old 11-08-2019, 12:27 AM   #83
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And just for clarity, you're setting the threshold at $50k because that is the new $30K?
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Old 11-08-2019, 01:51 AM   #84
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And just for clarity, you're setting the threshold at $50k because that is the new $30K?
$40,000 is more appropriate considering inflation. But car costs due to all the new tech makes for that price difference more than anything.
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Old 11-08-2019, 07:00 AM   #85
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2020 Hyundai Veloster N Discount Makes It A Better Deal


The Hyundai Veloster N is a seriously good hot hatchback, and with the standard model starting at $27,400, itís already a tempting purchase for new-car shoppers. A recent report from Cars Direct suggests it could be even sweeter with some new incentives from Hyundai, taking the form of both discounts and financing offers.

Specifically, Cars Direct cites a dealer incentive bulletin as listing a $500 rebate for the Veloster N. An additional $500 rebate is available if you finance through Hyundai, bringing the total discount to $1,000. Thereís a catch, however Ė that extra $500 is only offered if you finance at a non-promotional rate. What does that mean exactly?

Hyundaiís other incentive is a 2.9 percent finance rate for up to five years, plus the original $500 rebate. Thatís the promotional deal, and depending on the term of the loan and how much you finance, nixing the extra $500 discount for the special rate could save you well over $500 in the long run, and even offer a lower monthly payment in the process. It should be noted that the incentives apply to the upgraded Veloster N with the 275-horsepower (205-kilowatt) performance package as well.

Weíve driven the Veloster N and found it to be an exceptionally good performance machine for any genre, not just the front-wheel-drive hatchback segment. Similarly, Road & Track recently crowned the Veloster N as its 2020 performance car of the year, besting not-insignificant competition such as the Porsche 911, Toyota Supra, and the all-new mid-engined 2020 Corvette.
Often times, automakers will announce incentives to encourage sales of slow-moving models, but the Veloster is well ahead of 2018 sales figures. 11,220 units are sold through October 2019, compared to just 8,857 last year. Still, thatís a mere fraction compared to the 139,052 Elantras sold through the same period, so we can understand Hyundai adding a bit more incentive for folks to sample its exquisite hot hatch.
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Old 11-08-2019, 08:39 AM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by godfather2112 View Post
Cars we had back during that limited time frame you gave that we no longer have that would be fun
Legacy turbo and spec b
Evo
S2000

I mean, thereís a **** ton of cars offering performance within realistic price ranges from $25k to $50k, maybe $55k. The camaro and mustang were complete dog**** back then. Maybe itís subjective, but I think there are more performance cars now within a realistic range than before and with a **** ton more features.
RX8 too.

--kC
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Old 11-08-2019, 12:40 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by Kostamojen View Post
It has no sound at all.

Meanwhile the N sounds fabulous
Personally, I hate the pops the N makes, sounds like a broken Ford Focus RS - which also sounds like crap.

The CTR from the outside, yes, it's quite quiet, but in the cabin it's actually decent.

I'm used to hi-comp Honda engines that are anything but quiet, but for driving around town it gets the job done.

My '07 was just loud and it got old after a while.
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Old 11-08-2019, 12:43 PM   #88
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The enthusiast market is for the rich now.
This, unless you want a Civic Si, a BRZ/FRS/whatever it's called now or a WRX.
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Old 11-08-2019, 01:00 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by Kostamojen View Post
Don't start on the whole 2 seat roadster sportscar definition BS...

The point was automakers are cutting down on "enthusiast" cars in the adorable segment. Ford eliminated ALL of them outside the Mustang. Chevy did the same awhile ago with eliminating Pontiac and the SS sedan and all of Holden. Nissan has gone to generic car hell taking Infiniti with it. Mazda has the Miata still but the ND price has balooned and no signs of anything Mazdaspeed in the works. Honda luckily brought the CTR but the S2000 has been gone for awhile and Acura has garbage outside the crazy priced NSX.

The enthusiast market is for the rich now.
Iím not narrowing it down to ďtwo seatsĒ as can be seen in my example and I donít think itís becoming only for the rich. Yes, there are less options in the $30k-$40k range. Focus and first st/rs are done, at least for now. The legacy GT died once the body size blew up and no one wanted it. The Baja, well, that car was just a pile and not sure I could call it an enthusiast car. People complain about losing certain cars from the market yet had no intention of buying them. There are still plenty of offerings, many of which people write off yet have never even driven them because of preconceived ideas.
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Old 11-09-2019, 07:59 AM   #90
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^^ M2CS. Drool. That car is going to be BA. Lots of existing M2/M2C owners pissing on it for some unknown reason (self-justification maybe?) but it’s quite a pkg. We should be thankful BMW is still offering the M2 family of awesome. ****ting on a fully-optioned offering may make them change their minds. It’s cost is pricey, but it’s less than the sum of it’s options. Half of the owners have modded their M2s up to and we’ll past where the M2CS is at.
If I had the extra $ to go for it, I would - P-cars STILL way outside that price.
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Old 11-09-2019, 07:29 PM   #91
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^^ M2CS. Drool. That car is going to be BA. Lots of existing M2/M2C owners pissing on it for some unknown reason (self-justification maybe?) but itís quite a pkg. We should be thankful BMW is still offering the M2 family of awesome. ****ting on a fully-optioned offering may make them change their minds. Itís cost is pricey, but itís less than the sum of itís options. Half of the owners have modded their M2s up to and weíll past where the M2CS is at.
If I had the extra $ to go for it, I would - P-cars STILL way outside that price.
Hereís the thing with the M2CS. Itís likely going to start at $85k-$90 (probably closer to $90k). Throw executive package, car play and some basic options and youíre easily over $100k. $100k for an M2CS that will likely only marginally be faster than my OG M2. Hell, $100k for an M3 is beyond stupid. You can get a M2C for $60-$65k right now. You could dump $15k-$20k max and walk the ever living hell out of the M2CS in every metric with better quality parts than tarted you M performance stuff. There just isnít a lot of value in the M2CS.

For $100k, Iím looking at P cars, not a M2.

Different strokes for different folks but the CS is just asinine pricing and just a BMW whore collector car.
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Old 11-09-2019, 09:40 PM   #92
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Hereís the thing with the M2CS. Itís likely going to start at $85k-$90 (probably closer to $90k). Throw executive package, car play and some basic options and youíre easily over $100k. $100k for an M2CS that will likely only marginally be faster than my OG M2. Hell, $100k for an M3 is beyond stupid. You can get a M2C for $60-$65k right now. You could dump $15k-$20k max and walk the ever living hell out of the M2CS in every metric with better quality parts than tarted you M performance stuff. There just isnít a lot of value in the M2CS.

For $100k, Iím looking at P cars, not a M2.

Different strokes for different folks but the CS is just asinine pricing and just a BMW whore collector car.
Having driven both an M3C and an M3CS, the CS is noticeably better. I expect the M2CS will be similarly improved. Cost is still going to be dumb since that M3CS was optioned at $118k. But the small changes do add up to something a competent driver will feel and appreciate.
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Old 11-14-2019, 03:09 AM   #93
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LOL. FWD isn't desirable on a performance car. I don't even see how it wins on fun or driving dynamics? Let alone real-world ownership. My CTR, on a dry day, loses traction up through 3rd gear. In the rain it is a nightmare, you have to be feather-light on the gas in order not to just sit and spin.
I think most people have this trouble after learning to trust in quick AWD cars. Once you train your foot to stop treating the throttle pedal like a light switch you can start to appreciate just how much fun and rewarding it can be to manage grip in a quick FWD car.

Quote:
Originally Posted by h3llsp4wn View Post
Because they are only good in absolute perfect road conditions. Add s little sleet, rain, or snow and all that goes out the window.
Not a big rally fan, eh? AWD > FWD > RWD in the rally world with only a few exceptions. The whole reason FWD gained prominence with the public was the excellent foul weather handling and grip that comes from having 60% of the car's weight over the drive wheels.
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Old 11-14-2019, 01:03 PM   #94
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Having driven both an M3C and an M3CS, the CS is noticeably better. I expect the M2CS will be similarly improved. Cost is still going to be dumb since that M3CS was optioned at $118k. But the small changes do add up to something a competent driver will feel and appreciate.
I donít doubt itís a better performing car. My issue is with the insane price tag that will come with it and knowing you could buy aftermarket parts that will have a base M2C out performing it for much less cost. Sadly, Iím betting the M2CS will just end up staying in peoples garages and rarely being driven. Hell, people rarely put miles on the M2 and M2C thinking itís some sort of precious car. I just donít get that mindset. Cars are meant to be driven and enjoyed, not just stared at in a a garage.

This is why I could never be a car collector, Iíd want to drive the piss out of all of them.
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Old 11-14-2019, 01:06 PM   #95
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C43AMG under $50k ? Uh, no.
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Old 11-14-2019, 01:11 PM   #96
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C43AMG under $50k ? Uh, no.
Easily had for under $55k in base trim.
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