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Old 09-17-2020, 12:46 PM   #351
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Originally Posted by heavyD View Post
Well Subaru at least had gone with all new chassis for the WRX/STI over the generations carrying over the engine and drivetrain. This is a nearly 20 year old platform.
The WRX/STI is currently sitting on a revised and revised again ~23 year old chassis first launched with the BH/BE Legacy. The first revision was found in the Tribeca that may have partially been paid for by whatever leftover GM bucks there were or not. The last revision and current WRX/STI was paid for in part by Toyota and the BRZ program. The WRX/STI was made for rally. Its chassis before the change to a Legacy rear chassis for 2008 MY was also about 20 years old. After the change, their priority for competitive WR racing diminished in favor of larger segment share with circuit racing. Lots of issues with that rear suspension setup early in the days of competitive US rally. Because it wasn't made for rally. And everyone knew that. No BUSTED! moments because meh IT'S SUBARU.

Nissan doing it here isn't as much a big deal to me because I think this car is going to be what Z car fans have been asking for. Retro looks and gobs of turbo power with a ton of aftermarket support at an important price point. 90's level Z. And since we love Legos here, there will be a crap ton of totaled cars with TT engines to swap into current and previous Z cars.
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Old 09-17-2020, 12:56 PM   #352
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4S-TURBO View Post
The WRX/STI is currently sitting on a revised and revised again ~23 year old chassis first launched with the BH/BE Legacy. The first revision was found in the Tribeca that may have partially been paid for by whatever leftover GM bucks there were or not. The last revision and current WRX/STI was paid for in part by Toyota and the BRZ program. The WRX/STI was made for rally. Its chassis before the change to a Legacy rear chassis for 2008 MY was also about 20 years old. After the change, their priority for competitive WR racing diminished in favor of larger segment share with circuit racing. Lots of issues with that rear suspension setup early in the days of competitive US rally. Because it wasn't made for rally. And everyone knew that. No BUSTED! moments because meh IT'S SUBARU.

Nissan doing it here isn't as much a big deal to me because I think this car is going to be what Z car fans have been asking for. Retro looks and gobs of turbo power with a ton of aftermarket support at an important price point. 90's level Z. And since we love Legos here, there will be a crap ton of totaled cars with TT engines to swap into current and previous Z cars.
Also worth noting:
Dodge Charger & Challenger; super old reworked/modernized chassis & engine, sells like gangbusters.
Call it a brawler, a bruiser or just a muscle cruiser
It makes blower and V8 noises, and only gets a gallon to the mile,
makes lots of tire smoke and always makes you smile.
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Old 09-17-2020, 01:04 PM   #353
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I think Chrysler/Dodge is setting up a record in terms of milking platforms.
The 2005 Charger/300 LX chassis has been revised only once in 2011 (mainly to improve crash worthiness and front suspension).
The 2008 Chally LC chassis is a shortened LX and has never received the 2011 updates...
But, then again, it's good enough to handle 800+ HP, why bother?

EDIT: Sid03 beat me to the punch...
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Old 09-17-2020, 01:10 PM   #354
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sid03SVT View Post
Also worth noting:
Dodge Charger & Challenger; super old reworked/modernized chassis & engine, sells like gangbusters.
Call it a brawler, a bruiser or just a muscle cruiser
It makes blower and V8 noises, and only gets a gallon to the mile,
makes lots of tire smoke and always makes you smile.
Yeah but nobody and I mean nobody buys those cars for their handling characteristics. They are straight line boats but it's a great note that shows that old re-worked chassis doesn't yield much in handling improvements. The 370Z is swimming with different fish where the actual drive and handling matters. I think this restyle is better than nothing and one of the worst parts (VQ37 engine) of the 370Z was addressed so it should at least be more attractive to buyers that like Nissans but I don't think this car is going to steal sales from other brands.
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Old 09-17-2020, 01:54 PM   #355
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Last edited by Ultimateone; 09-17-2020 at 01:59 PM.
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Old 09-17-2020, 02:49 PM   #356
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I'll link it



So the 86 has a more 240z face than the 400z?
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Old 09-17-2020, 02:49 PM   #357
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That BRZ is the bottom right corner is better looking IMO. That's going to be a good looking car I think.
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Old 09-17-2020, 02:54 PM   #358
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Don't look at me as it's Motor Trend claiming it's a rebodied Z car. I'm sure Nissan can make a few tweaks to the chassis but it's going to drive and share most of its characteristics with the 370Z as there's only so much you can change with a unibody design. It's a really old car with a new engine at the end of the day which is going to cost a lot more than it used to. To me that's a bit of a scam and it's not like Subaru hasn't been dogged forever for re-using the EJ257. This is arguably worse because it's the exact same car with a new engine only.
And yet that's what many of us Subaru buyers asked Subaru for. Don't care if it's the same car, update the only thing wrong with the damn thing, the ancient engine.

So Nissan is doing the same. Why is this debbie downer turf? We already knew this was going to be a parts bin special. Existing underpinnings, existing engine in their lineup, etc, etc. We knew this months ago. But why take a dump on it? You don't think they can use the existing chassis robot and make some changes that change the driving characteristics? Chassis can easily be modified without reinventing the wheel bro. Pooping on it before it's even here, before it has been driven with a bunch of ass-umptions is fools play.

I'm going to give you a real wake up here. The BMW 1M was a parts bin special and that is widely regarded as a very special car. As scraps said, past Z were parts bin specials and ended up being f'in classics.

You may end up 100% correct and it's a reskinned 370Z with a new motor from their Infiniti lineup. But you don't know that. Motor Trend doesn't know that. Nobody knows that. Nobody knows how it is going to drive, if it has snap oversteer etc.

My Focus RS was a parts bin special too. They used an existing chassis (Focus), welded what is referred to as the Lions Foot in the rear hatch area, and that ended up being one of the best chassis I have ever driven and far and away the best I have ever owned. So that pretty much defeats your argument that this new 400Z is going to be the same exact chassis. That's bs. The engine in the RS was sourced from the Mustang EB, with different head, and Ford F'd that up but the rest of the car was absolutely spectacular on an old chassis. You and MT are throwing out the baby with the bath water without even bathing the baby first. Premature.
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Old 09-17-2020, 03:07 PM   #359
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heavyD View Post
Yeah but nobody and I mean nobody buys those cars for their handling characteristics. They are straight line boats but it's a great note that shows that old re-worked chassis doesn't yield much in handling improvements. The 370Z is swimming with different fish where the actual drive and handling matters. I think this restyle is better than nothing and one of the worst parts (VQ37 engine) of the 370Z was addressed so it should at least be more attractive to buyers that like Nissans but I don't think this car is going to steal sales from other brands.
Isn't the 370Z platform double-wishbone front and multilink rear? That's a far better starting point than most road-going cars for handling.

If they can't make it handle properly, I'm doubting it has much to do with fundamental limitations of the architecture. Hell, there are companies that make MacStrut cars actually handle now - there's really no excuse to get this wrong if you're going through the trouble of more advanced setups.
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Old 09-17-2020, 03:13 PM   #360
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I like my STI just the way it is with the EJ.. it has that nostalgic vibe I liked about modded JDM cars from the late 90's early 2000's.

The 370Z was not a bad car either, I kept mine for over 8yrs which says a lot. It just had flaws here and there (some major) which required modification. Nissan adding the TT off the Q50RS is a great idea, given they upgraded the diff mounts, fixed the clutch system, and done it 5 yrs ago.

Most people, including me, have moved on from Nissan as they are now a pretty crappy company with very limited budget.
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Old 09-17-2020, 03:16 PM   #361
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That BRZ is the bottom right corner is better looking IMO. That's going to be a good looking car I think.
I think so too, and probably more modern than the 400Z.
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Old 09-17-2020, 03:17 PM   #362
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If they can't make it handle properly, I'm doubting it has much to do with fundamental limitations of the architecture. Hell, there are companies that make MacStrut cars actually handle now - there's really no excuse to get this wrong if you're going through the trouble of more advanced setups.

I agree. It's so stupid to assume it's going to handle the exact same. There are so many cars in automotive history with modified existing chassis that ended up being classics or just amazing to drive vehicles. I do not know anything about it will handle, nor does anyone else, but I think it's a fair bet they'll do something, anything, to change driving dynamics. People are acting like they are just going to drop a new motor in and everything is McSame. That's Engine changes everything, and this is a major automobile mfr. not a pair of brothers out in some Kentucky barn making an oval dirt track car. For F sakes.
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Old 09-17-2020, 03:53 PM   #363
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The Mortar Trend piece was clickbait. They equated reskinning a 370z to reskinning a Q60 rather than shouting to the treetops "600 lb lighter Z to get amazing engine and retro styling with a manual trans at bargain basement pricing!"
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Old 09-17-2020, 05:02 PM   #364
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most car journalism is clickbait when it isn't straight-up paid promotion
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Old 09-17-2020, 05:54 PM   #365
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Double wishbone suspension, hydraulic steering, stout 6MT, TTv6... I'm sold!

Also all modern Nissans can swallow a ton of tire too - I have 275/305's on my G37 without any modification to the wheelwells. And there will be enough aftermarket support for this car to address anything you can think of, from suspension, to tuning, to driveline, etc.
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Old 09-17-2020, 06:27 PM   #366
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I like that bunch of nothing, reminds me of S2000

AP1 has a duct, and I know a lot of people that didn't like the AP2 without it under the light.

--kC
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Old 09-17-2020, 07:27 PM   #367
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Personally, I think it looks quite good and I don't really understand the issues people have with it. Owners are going to modify the aesthetics, so as a base car why isn't this good enough? I mean people throw bumper kits, flares, sideskirts, wings and spoilers at other cars all day without issue.
If I had money for a third car, I think I'd have one. Well depending on how it handles, anyway.
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Old 09-17-2020, 09:08 PM   #368
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My thoughts after seeing more pics, video clips and such - while loving the overall profile/ shape of the car, the main gripe for me is still the looks of the front and rear ends - it's almost as if they're from 2 different cars. I appreciate what they were trying to do, but IMO it wasn't executed cleanly up front. At the least, reduce the grille opening by "1 row" from the top and add a few more styling details in the front bumper fascia reminiscent of the Z32 since the rear tail lights are evocative of that generation. May as well go all out blending those 70's and 90's bits a little more cohesively for this retro take on the Z. Please Nissan, don't call it "400Z". Stay truer to engine displacement like it was from the beginning. Also disappointed the car grew again compared to the 370Z as it was a step in the right direction from the 350Z. With all that being said, I do like this much more than the Supra and would take this any day even if it isn't as capable right out of the box.
All that's left is for Mazda to join the party with its own (inline) 6 cylinder entry.
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Old 09-17-2020, 09:38 PM   #369
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What, no rotary?
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Old 09-17-2020, 10:23 PM   #370
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If Mazda can address the major shortcomings of the rotary and stuff it in a capable MX-5-sized package, then sure.
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Old 09-17-2020, 10:25 PM   #371
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What, no rotary?
the drivers are eccentric, not the motor
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Old 09-20-2020, 08:43 AM   #372
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Originally Posted by ForceFed4 View Post
What, no rotary?
Quote:
Originally Posted by hi5.0 View Post
If Mazda can address the major shortcomings of the rotary and stuff it in a capable MX-5-sized package, then sure.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keshav View Post
the drivers are eccentric, not the motor
Someone, and it could be me, is in the wrong thread.

That said, an I6 from Mazda is only slightly more likely than a rotary (i.e., not gonna happen).
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Old 09-20-2020, 03:06 PM   #373
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Someone, and it could be me, is in the wrong thread.

That said, an I6 from Mazda is only slightly more likely than a rotary (i.e., not gonna happen).
No, Mazda has confirmed they are in the process of developing a new rear-wheel drive platform and an inline 6 engine. It's not a matter of likelihood, the I6 is pretty much happening. The automotive press suspects it is to replace the Mazda6 with a RWD sedan (probably as part of Mazda's upmarket push), but there's still rumors it will be shared with a sports car; Mazda also has a patent to have an rotary EV range extender which people theorize to power a new series-hybrid RX car.
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Old 09-20-2020, 03:34 PM   #374
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Mazda should just do AWD on the new platform. RWD sports cars make sense, but RWD sedans are kinda dated imo especially on a brand new platform. Sedans, unless WRX/STI are pretty unexciting to own.
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Old 09-20-2020, 04:03 PM   #375
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I agree. It's so stupid to assume it's going to handle the exact same. There are so many cars in automotive history with modified existing chassis that ended up being classics or just amazing to drive vehicles. I do not know anything about it will handle, nor does anyone else, but I think it's a fair bet they'll do something, anything, to change driving dynamics. People are acting like they are just going to drop a new motor in and everything is McSame. That's Engine changes everything, and this is a major automobile mfr. not a pair of brothers out in some Kentucky barn making an oval dirt track car. For F sakes.
What you're saying is all true, but as a Z32 owner who was displeased with the Z33 and Z34, my faith is at an all-time low on that. I would of course love to be wrong on this, but them keeping the FM platform for a third round wouldn't be encouraging news to me on it's own. The fact that Nissan's products in general are at pretty much the lowest point they've been in my lifetime is even more discouraging. And still, all of that must be combined with the knowledge this car will certainly be getting a numb electric power steering system (laugh at the 370Z for being old, but its one of the last sports cars with a hydraulic rack), and worse still, that the VR30 engine weighs about 140lbs more than the outgoing VQ37, and the 370Z already had a 55/45 weight distribution. So even if we're hopeful, it's fair to say the chances of the weight distribution significantly improving are presumably somewhat impaired since it's on the same platform.

My preference is for this car to be setup as another "ZX" rather than "Z", not out of a bias because I owned a 300ZX, because indeed the Z32 in particular was actually a bit of a contradiction on that front; everything about sitting in and driving a Z32 would lead you to believe it was a GT car (including the availability of a 2+2 and vert) except that the performance for it's time was so outstanding that it was on the top rope suplexing actual pure sports cars left and right in its early model years. No, I'd prefer a ZX because the problems mentioned in the above paragraph are much less important in a grand tourer than they are in a pure sports car. Unfortunately, the Z Proto does indeed at least appear it's leaning towards another pure sports/Z direction, so that's the curve it will be graded on. I hope that I'm wrong and they develop an excellent chassis with great steering feel, even though that's not historically been a Z-car strength (since the S30 anyway). At the least, having a modern interior and eliminating the Z34's NVH issues will make for a capable cruiser even if the car isn't superb at 10/10ths.
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