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Old 11-15-2018, 02:24 PM   #101
jasonwrx86
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I agree that it doesn’t if done sporadically. However, and this is only my logic telling me, as the time spent in higher rpms increases so does the accelerated wear of components. How much does the wear increase or what the coefficient is I wouldn’t know, I’m just saying that the wear must logically be higher.

Having said that, and assuming it true in my practice I don’t feel like the added benefit outweighs the potential risk for ME. I am very content shifting after it revs over 6000rpm in my daily spirited driving and that’s where my benefit/smile is highest and risk minimized.

You can’t convince me that I’d have a bigger smile if I shifted at say 6800rpm cuz I know I wouldn’t as I’d be stressing over where I’m shifting and going deep into redline. But that is me, you can subscribe to any logic or your choosing and drive your car as it tickles your fancy.
The increase in wear is pretty minimal, you need to think as the rpm go higher, so is oil pressure and flow.
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Old 11-15-2018, 03:06 PM   #102
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Hey, I agree with that. But also if you look at most dyno curves, the fun starts fading off from ~5800-6000rpm on. I find it fun-er to shift and get to enjoy being pulled up that curve again until about 6000rpm, then shift...
on stock turbo fo sho. no reason to rev past 5500 RPMs
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Old 11-16-2018, 01:28 AM   #103
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hey op, i hope you come back with your oil test.


mailed her out tuesday should be 2-3 weeks
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Old 11-16-2018, 01:40 AM   #104
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just to end this bickering only reason i meantioned my redlining is because i feel thatís when iím wearing the car the most but 30-40 over 15 months of ownership ainít **** like 1-2 every two weeks but anyway about 600 miles since change and still no sound drives fine
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Old 11-16-2018, 02:27 AM   #105
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I don’t redline but I do go pretty much wot from 2500-4500 in second third and fourth just to keep up with traffic...wonder how long my motor will last?
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Old 11-16-2018, 08:00 AM   #106
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It doesn't really matter like I said redlining even a couple times a day is not even a drop in a bucket.
Let's say you drive 10 minutes a day at 2000rpm, that is 20000rpms. A redline lasts about 1 - 3 seconds and that is 300 rpm or about 200rpm more than running at 2000rpm for the same duration. So you have done it once or twice in that 10 minute window that is only maybe 200-400rpm more than the 20000rpm the engine has spun.
Load wise, say your average load is 25% for 10 minutes that is 15000% and for twice and 3 seconds each at 100% load, it's only 600%. Again drop in a bucket.
And engine wear is not related to load and rpm so the percentage of increased wear is even lower.
Shifting at 5000 vs 6500 doesn't really make all that much difference.
^this is off the map erroneous logic.
This has less than nothing to do with revolution count of a motor.
Again dude, reciprocation forces increase exponentially, period.

A decade or so ago when they designed the Honda S2000 that could rev to 9000 rpm's they also published a technical article about it.
The whole article was basically about the peak rpm because it was so difficult getting it to that point safely.
The designers specifically pointed out that at 9000 rpm's the internal forces on the reciprocating parts were DOUBLE the forces at 8000 rpm's.
That is the point that applies to every engine regardless of it's peak capability.
When you are at that point in an exponential force curve and you just overshoot by a mere 500 rpm's you can double it again. Now you're putting quadruple the force you would have at 8000 rpm's.
Will it immediately blow up?
No
But are you seriously affecting that motor? Yes
It's all about usage and load level.

Hell, when people sell used CNC machines they often specifically point out when a machine has done all aluminum for it's whole life.
You know why?
Because it tells the buyer that the machine has been run at a lower stress level than one that runs nickel alloys and armor even though BOTH are well within it's design limitations.
The spindle will be in better shape, the ball screws will be in better shape, the tool taper will be in better shape, everything.
The one doing aluminum had an easier life to say it simply, and it will run reliably for way longer.

You want more fun, fine, it's your car, but it's ludicrous to say it has no affect on longevity.
Anyway, this might as well be like the hard break in vs actual break in.
We'll clearly never agree.
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Old 11-16-2018, 11:05 AM   #107
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Hell, when people sell used CNC machines they often specifically point out when a machine has done all aluminum for it's whole life.
You know why?
Because it tells the buyer that the machine has been run at a lower stress level than one that runs nickel alloys and armor even though BOTH are well within it's design limitations.
The spindle will be in better shape, the ball screws will be in better shape, the tool taper will be in better shape, everything.
The one doing aluminum had an easier life to say it simply, and it will run reliably for way longer.

You want more fun, fine, it's your car, but it's ludicrous to say it has no affect on longevity.
Anyway, this might as well be like the hard break in vs actual break in.
We'll clearly never agree.
Again flawed comparison. A CNC machine running soft metal will not have ill-effect if not using hard metal once a while. An engine is more complex than that. If you always baby an engine, the carbon will build up not being blown out getting stuck on all surfaces of the engine. Overtime, this build up can collect to a point when you do drive the engine hard, big chunks will dislodge and cause serious damages. The best practice is to frequently run the engine hard to blow out the carbon before it becomes an issue.
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Old 11-16-2018, 12:29 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by jasonwrx86 View Post
Again flawed comparison. A CNC machine running soft metal will not have ill-effect if not using hard metal once a while. An engine is more complex than that. If you always baby an engine, the carbon will build up not being blown out getting stuck on all surfaces of the engine. Overtime, this build up can collect to a point when you do drive the engine hard, big chunks will dislodge and cause serious damages. The best practice is to frequently run the engine hard to blow out the carbon before it becomes an issue.
Look, I redline my motor at least once every drive cycle as long as I'm at operating temperature and oil pressure looks good. I don't bounce it off redline, but I get right on it. Car has 65K, be tuned for E62 and I've been on the exact same tune for 40K. I've tracked the car, taken the coolant temp as high as 230F and oil temp as high as 280F. The car keeps going and shows zero signs of stopping. BUT even I know, there are limits to this and I plan on pulling the motor around 100K to rebuild it and find a way to upgrade the oiling system.

I get where you are coming from but the two of you are arguing shades of grey. RTV is saying, higher sustained RPM = reduction in longevity and you are arguing higher sustained RPM = minimal wear increase. There is no difference in these arguments, they both admit there is increase wear, but you can't definitively say how much. You take it a step further and say why worry when something else can happen.

Increase wear = decrease longevity

We can't quantify the decrease in longevity, there is zero empirical data to draw any formula for this correlation. However at a very high level we can logically deduce this is true based on real world observations. We can't predict how many miles before a engine fails, how many hours of operation before an engine fails, the condition engines will fail, how an engine fails, etc.

So drive it like you want to, enjoy it, and let it go already.

I, for one, am stoked I can run my engine at these power levels in these types of conditions for 65K and it still keeps going. If I can hit 100K doing what I do, I am winning. For reference, a radical SR3 motor is recommended to be rebuilt every 30-40 hours. I can hit these numbers commuting to work in 2 weeks.
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Old 11-16-2018, 12:35 PM   #109
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Look, I redline my motor at least once every drive cycle as long as I'm at operating temperature and oil pressure looks good. I don't bounce it off redline, but I get right on it. Car has 65K, be tuned for E62 and I've been on the exact same tune for 40K. I've tracked the car, taken the coolant temp as high as 230F and oil temp as high as 280F. The car keeps going and shows zero signs of stopping. BUT even I know, there are limits to this and I plan on pulling the motor around 100K to rebuild it and find a way to upgrade the oiling system.

I get where you are coming from but the two of you are arguing shades of grey. RTV is saying, higher sustained RPM = reduction in longevity and you are arguing higher sustained RPM = minimal wear increase. There is no difference in these arguments, they both admit there is increase wear, but you can't definitively say how much. You take it a step further and say why worry when something else can happen.

Increase wear = decrease longevity

We can't quantify the decrease in longevity, there is zero empirical data to draw any formula for this correlation. However at a very high level we can logically deduce this is true based on real world observations. We can't predict how many miles before a engine fails, how many hours of operation before an engine fails, the condition engines will fail, how an engine fails, etc.

So drive it like you want to, enjoy it, and let it go already.

I, for one, am stoked I can run my engine at these power levels in these types of conditions for 65K and it still keeps going. If I can hit 100K doing what I do, I am winning. For reference, a radical SR3 motor is recommended to be rebuilt every 30-40 hours. I can hit these numbers commuting to work in 2 weeks.
No doubt I totally agree with you. I never said driving the engine at high rpm will not wear out the engine sooner but by how much. He thinks hitting the readline 30-40 times over 15k miles is gonna cause the bearings to spit brass I don't buy that.
I am also a Mustang owner and people supercharge their cars making 200-300 more hp over stock level and still DD their cars and drive them hard daily. These cars go 60-80k miles without any issues.
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Old 11-16-2018, 01:15 PM   #110
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He thinks hitting the readline 30-40 times over 15k miles is gonna cause the bearings to spit brass I don't buy that.
no
just pointed out how at first he "has always babied" the motor.
And then it was a few dozen redline shifts and I simply know in real world conditions that means a handful of total blow past redline shifts.

No empirical evidence on this is dead nuts right, I agree.
just a personal opinion based on real world examples from long term samples.

Personally I wouldn't want a test drive mule with 150 miles of downright abuse if I'm buying a new car.
Some guys don't care. It has a rev limiter right so what can go wrong?
For me plenty can go wrong, but if you don't care you don't care.
I also wouldn't want a fleet vehicle and I think many people agree.
same deal
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Old 11-29-2018, 03:07 PM   #111
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Old 11-29-2018, 03:30 PM   #112
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Well, there you go as I expected just some machining debri from the manufacturing process.
You engine will be perfectly fine even if you rev to the red line a couple of times a day.
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