Porsche Synthetic Fuel, ICE Clean as EVs

[SubaDuba420]

Porsche Says Its Synthetic Fuel Could Make Gas-Powered Engines as Clean as EVs
The marque believes its eFuel would allow combustion engines to be as clean as electric drivetrains

https://robbreport.com/motors/cars/p...ve-1234597977/

The Porsche Taycan may be one of the most exciting EVs on the market right now, but that doesn’t mean the German automaker is ready to give up on the combustion engine just yet.

The marque’s vice president Motorsport and GT cars, Dr. Frank Walliser, told British car magazine Evo that the company is hard at work on a synthetic fuel technology that could save traditional, gas-powered mills. The fuel won’t just reduce emissions, either; it has the potential to make combustion engines just as clean as their battery-powered counterparts, the executive said.

Walliser claims the company’s synthetic fuel, which will be called eFuel, can be used in any combustion engine and is scheduled to start undergoing testing next year. The fuel is less complex than traditional gas—eight to 10 components compared to 30 to 40—allowing it to burn cleaner, with fewer particulates and NOx. Because of this, the total carbon footprint of the vehicle will be equal to that of an EV.

“Synthetic fuel is cleaner and there is no bi-product, and when we start full production we expect a CO2 reduction of 85 percent,” Walliser told the publication. “From a ‘well to wheel’ perspective—and you have to consider the well to wheel impact of all vehicles—this will be the same level of CO2 produced in the manufacture and use of an electric vehicle.”

Porsche isn’t the only premium automaker exploring the potential of synthetic fuel. Last spring, McLaren Automotive COO Jens Ludmann said the British marque viewed the nascent technology as a valid alternative to electric drivetrains. The executive also said the marque intended to eventually build a prototype that would run on synthetic fuel.

Although it will take a lot of time and money to make synthetic fuel a reality, it’s easy to see why automakers like Porsche and McLaren are intrigued by its potential. Despite a shift towards EV production, and pledges from automakers to stop producing vehicles with combustion engines entirely, only 3.2 million of the 64 million vehicles sold last year were EVs. If development of the technology continues, it has the potential to offer yet another way of lowering dangerous emissions worldwide.

I'm not holding my breath, but we can always hope...

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[oichan]

Fast forward 5 yrs after production release.. EPA fines VW Group for billions of $$$ for doctored test data.. I don't trust these folks after the diesel scandal.

[hi5.0]

Originally Posted by oichan

Fast forward 5 yrs after production release.. EPA fines VW Group for billions of $$$ for doctored test data.. I don't trust these folks after the diesel scandal.

Exactly.



Highly doubt it will live up to (all) the claims, but would be pretty good if the concept could also be applied to aviation.

[Masterauto]

CNG or natural gas is cleaner than EVs on well to well basis. Most the cabs and many trucks Asia use it because its so cheap. Any vehicle can be easily adapted to use it for few hundred $ and even Diesels run well on CNG. Only disadvantage you need larger fuel tanks.

[arghx7]

This is one of those things where somebody trots out a new technology, tries to get the government to buy in, fails to get sufficient support, and fizzles.

[mhoward1]

Yeah,
I have some doubts in the claims made.

[wrxsubaru]

[quote=SubaDuba420;46521329

I'm not holding my breath, but we can always hope...[/QUOTE]

This already exist as renewable diesel and there are some renewable gasoline products too.

This article is missing the caveat of not enough low carbon feedstock to really replace fuel consumed. There are more performance issues with these fuels but nothing that cannot be overcome.

If your interested the below has good general information on the different common alt fuels.

afdc.energy.gov

[BeepBoop]

We really need to definitively step past the idea of things going boom as a method of energy conversion. Get with the program and help figure out the battery problem instead of trying to find every way possible to maybe hold onto ICE.

[NighthawkSTI]

$20 per gallon. Sounds like a great solution. NOT. Look at companies like NIO.....no type of "combustible fuel" engines are going to be able to compete with them. They have battery swap technology that is outselling their standard battery equipped models, as the battery can be swapped out in 3 minutes. BAAS look at it.

Also the BAAS allows them to exponentially increase the available supply of battery metals through recycling, and over time reduced the need for mining. NIO is a no brainer. Robo Taxi's, The best self driving tech, and growing exponentially. Will be #1 in the largest automotive market on the planet by the end of this year.

Auto manufacturers that are dicking around with combistible fuels are just wasting time.

The factory they are building is going to output 600,000 cars a year by 2023. Expanding to Europe this year and then the U.S

All these sugar coated alternative fuels, that wont be viable and will cost a weeks pay to fill the tank every time are just the last gasps of Fuel producing ventures to put some kind of a spark into the industry that is being drained with every EV that rolls out of an assembly line.

[dwf137]

Energy is neither created nor destroyed. For every bit of energy they get out of this fuel, they have to input the same, or more energy. They plan on powering their plants with wind power, thereby keeping the carbon footprint low. But is this fuel really the best method of storing energy? Or are batteries?

On top of that, this project has (ambitious) plans to produce up to about 145 million gallons of synthetic fuel in 2026. The US alone consumes close to 400 million gallons of gasoline PER DAY.

More technical information here: https://newsroom.porsche.com/en/2020...els-23021.html

[Dex]

Not everyone is interested in electric vehicles. I get that most people don't care and will drive whatever, but there is a large demographic that is not on board with electric. Speaking on behalf of enthusiasts, not those who have range fears, political woes, etc, we spend a lot of money on ICE because it's fun. I don't see a lot of us suddenly stopping our interest in ICE because of electric. Sure, I'd love an electric commuter, but I'll still have a passion for motors that burn stuff. It's a nerdy, mechanical thing. I know a lot of you guys are done with ICE, but some of us are down with both.

I think ICE's long term future will most likely be enthusiast/hobby based and companies know this. Thus, creating a cleaner burning fuel is probably a good idea if the tech exists.

[subyski]

If this fuel is flexible and can be used in older vehicles, then I can see appeal in the classic/vintage car market. People are going to have older ICE vehicles for a while and there will be people who will keep ICE collectables.

[NighthawkSTI]

Originally Posted by subyski

If this fuel is flexible and can be used in older vehicles, then I can see appeal in the classic/vintage car market. People are going to have older ICE vehicles for a while and there will be people who will keep ICE collectables.

No way will this fuel porsche is experimenting with be able to just dump into a late 60's muscle car without mods to the fuel system and carburation, which means $$$ expenditure. Why bother. Regular gas will still be avaialble for Muscle cars for a long long time.

Also the bigger point to this is that Oil is still going to be needed in these Co2hydrogen powered engines. Not so eco friendly, and not a solution to 100% green output. Blowby is toxic relative to the output of an fully electric car like NIO or Tsla. No comparison.

[Stanley]

Originally Posted by Masterauto

CNG or natural gas is cleaner than EVs on well to well basis. Most the cabs and many trucks Asia use it because its so cheap. Any vehicle can be easily adapted to use it for few hundred $ and even Diesels run well on CNG. Only disadvantage you need larger fuel tanks.

Other disadvantages:


Requires pressurized tanks/filling stations (the C in CNG)

Less power than gas or diesel from the same engine
Less range


That being said, CNG/RNG has a very good use in trucks taking goods from port to storefront.

[dwf137]

Originally Posted by Dex

I think ICE's long term future will most likely be enthusiast/hobby based and companies know this. Thus, creating a cleaner burning fuel is probably a good idea if the tech exists.

This is a really good point.

[subyski]

Originally Posted by NighthawkSTI

No way will this fuel porsche is experimenting with be able to just dump into a late 60's muscle car without mods to the fuel system and carburation, which means $$$ expenditure. Why bother. Regular gas will still be avaialble for Muscle cars for a long long time.

Why not? Porsche has vintage cars that utilize carbs and old fuel injection. Currently, the modern gas available at the pump is the same you put into an old 4 cylinder boxer and a big block V8. Fuel formulations have changed since these cars came out new and inevitable mods/upgrades were needed because of ethenol and no lead.

There was a time when old synthetic oil was not recommended in old engines but things have changed too. Porsche is one of the few brands that supports their classic cars as they even have their own line of classic Porsche oils. There's a whole aftermarket of classic car oils so a whole line of classic car fuel (that burns cleaner) could be a potential market if availability and costs are in check.

[NighthawkSTI]

Originally Posted by subyski

If this fuel is flexible and can be used in older vehicles, then I can see appeal in the classic/vintage car market. People are going to have older ICE vehicles for a while and there will be people who will keep ICE collectables.

I agree, but that market will be so small compared to the global population market for EV's, vintage/classic muscle cars will probably just keep using gasoline, ethenol free race gas...etc etc.

[White out]

Originally Posted by NighthawkSTI

No way will this fuel porsche is experimenting with be able to just dump into a late 60's muscle car without mods to the fuel system and carburation, which means $$$ expenditure. Why bother. Regular gas will still be avaialble for Muscle cars for a long long time.

They said this decades ago when fuel no longer had lead and it would destroy engines. I stopped adding lead substitute to my '60 Corvette 20 years ago as it would be a great excuse to LS swap . . . engine is still kickin'

[SCRAPPYDO]

while I want to believe it, I will remain skeptical. Just like the miracle batteries, this does not raise any eyebrows until its vetted. Try harder Porsche.

[NighthawkSTI]

Originally Posted by White out

They said this decades ago when fuel no longer had lead and it would destroy engines. I stopped adding lead substitute to my '60 Corvette 20 years ago as it would be a great excuse to LS swap . . . engine is still kickin'

Thats because back then they didnt have the hindsight to reveal just how well the engines in the 60's were built, and specifically the nickel content in the blocks and heads compared to todays soft metal engine parts. I havent used lead fuel or additive in my Muscle car since the ownership in the late 80's to now. And only in the last few years switched to sunoco race gas over the ethenol laced pump gas.

[h3llsp4wn]

Originally Posted by NighthawkSTI

I agree, but that market will be so small compared to the global population market for EV's, vintage/classic muscle cars will probably just keep using gasoline, ethenol free race gas...etc etc.

Would hate to see the registration fees on ICE cars after 2035

[AVANTI R5]

Porsche Breaks Ground On Synthetic Fuel Plant

Porsche and Siemens Energy have broken ground on a synthetic fuel pilot plant called Haru Oni, the automaker announced Tuesday in a press release.
Located in Punta Arenas, Chile, the plant will produce fuel that is nearly carbon neutral and can be used with existing internal-combustion engines, Porsche claims.

Fuel will be produced using electrolysis to split water into hydrogen and oxygen. Carbon dioxide (CO2) captured from the atmosphere will then be combined with the hydrogen to produce synthetic methanol, which in turn will be converted into fuel, which Porsche has dubbed "eFuel." All electricity needed will come from wind power, Porsche claims, lowering the carbon footprint of the production process.

Porsche breaks ground on its synthetic fuel plant

Porsche and Siemens Energy have broken ground on a synthetic fuel pilot plant called Haru Oni, the automaker announced Tuesday in a press release.
Located in Punta Arenas, Chile, the plant will produce fuel that is nearly carbon neutral and can be used with existing internal-combustion engines, Porsche claims.

Fuel will be produced using electrolysis to split water into hydrogen and oxygen. Carbon dioxide (CO2) captured from the atmosphere will then be combined with the hydrogen to produce synthetic methanol, which in turn will be converted into fuel, which Porsche has dubbed "eFuel." All electricity needed will come from wind power, Porsche claims, lowering the carbon footprint of the production process.

This process will be so clean that cars burning synthetic fuel will have a lower overall carbon footprint than electric cars, once emissions related to manufacturing are factored in, Porsche vice president of GT cars and manufacturing Dr. Frank Walliser said earlier this year. However, the amount of energy involved makes the process of manufacturing and distributing synthetic fuel less efficient than charging an electric car.

In a first stage beginning in 2022, the plant is slated to produce around 34,340 gallons of fuel. A second stage running through 2024 will ramp up production to 14.5 million gallons annually, and a third stage running through 2026 will further boost annual production capacity to 145.3 million gallons. Porsche plans to use synthetic fuel in its Mobil 1 Supercup one-make race series beginning in 2022.
Porsche believes synthetic fuel can help keep classic cars on the road, and believes it is a good fit for the 911, which the automaker has hesitated to electrify. However, in addition to an unproven production process, cost is an issue. Porsche CEO Oliver Blume said last year that researchers were working to get the price below $2 per liter or $7.6 per gallon, but that would still make synthetic fuel more expensive than gasoline, even in Europe.

656565

[dwf137]

Porsche plans to use synthetic fuel in its Mobil 1 Supercup one-make race series beginning in 2022.

Uh, I think Disney already made this movie. It's called Cars 2.

[SCRAPPYDO]

You know what came to my mind as I read this.

sooooo this is how desperate Porsche is to keep the 911 architecture viable.

[Genericuser1]

Sounds good to me, depending on the $$/gal of course.