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Old 02-14-2018, 04:35 PM   #1
SKVang
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Default GC vs GD handling, which one's better?

I am debating on rebuilding my 05 sti or selling it and buying a gc. To those that has experience with both, which one do you feel handles better? I am planning to get into auto crossing and would prefer handling over power.
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Old 02-14-2018, 10:09 PM   #2
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For year 1 in autocrossing, the car doesn't matter one bit. It could be your mom's Dodge Caravan as the main goals for year one are balance, braking, line, experience and things OTHER THAN what the damn vehicle is. Ask this in year 2 as your opponent in year 1 is YOU as everyone else will run circles around you even if you show up in a McLaren 720.
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Old 02-14-2018, 10:26 PM   #3
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Hi SKVang,

I'd actually care about the car, so you can then work on the goals mentioned above with the car you'll be driving for future autocross. I got my car not knowing how to drive, but then I learned how to drive over time....and now have mastered the car.

I'm excited to see a member post their experience if they've owned and understood both. Maybe as you wait, do little comparison of your 05 sti and a GC (weight, gear ratios, ect.).

Good luck!
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Old 02-14-2018, 10:28 PM   #4
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Seat time in ANY car beats any car. Get rides with instructors as much as you can and have them ride with you every time possible.
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Old 02-15-2018, 09:24 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SKVang View Post
I am debating on rebuilding my 05 sti or selling it and buying a gc.
If your plan is to rebuild it, then start with what you have.
As mentioned, seat time and 1st year is all about learning your car and what needs to be changed to better suit you.

THEN you can start upgrading your car to meet your goals and make any necessary adjustments, ie; tweaking your sway bars, brakes, etc.
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Old 02-15-2018, 10:06 AM   #6
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Since questions you havent asked yet are being answered Ill step in. The GD is a better chassis. The GC is a lighter chassis. If auto-x is mostly what you want it for and handling takes precedent I would suggest going GC. You will be able to make a GC more nimble with less effort, time and money than the GD. Its just a smaller car... period! Of course just about any vehicle can be made to handle well but how much time, effort and money do you want to put in.
I have a GD with years of development and I love it, but even being completely stripped out its still a fat ass 3000lb pig. It has taken me years to get the car to feel neutral during cornering.
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Old 02-15-2018, 10:11 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Samurai Jack View Post
As mentioned, seat time and 1st year is all about learning your car and what needs to be changed to better suit you.

THEN you can start upgrading your car to meet your goals and make any necessary adjustments, ie; tweaking your sway bars, brakes, etc.
Thanks for the reply my man! Ive also actually had that thought in the back of my mind and is indeed part of my plan, which is also a reason why i was considering a gc.
Since ive no experience in autocross/tracking, i feel like the sti will be too much power for me to start with and i should start out with learning how to drive and then adjust car as i master it. A gc will be less powerful, less weight and from the only comparison thread i found, op said his opinion between the two was that he liked the gc handling a lot more and felt that sometimes he didn't know 100% what his gd was doing.
Also another reason why i ask is cuz, not that i dont like GD, but the gc appeals to me so much more. I dont want to put a lot of money and time into rebuilding my sti and then end up not liking it after having track experience with it and regretting that i should have done this with a gc from the start.
Maybe the sti just hasnt grown onto me yet. But i am keeping an open mind and not trying to be biased between the two, so anyone with experience opinions is greatly appreciated!
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Old 02-15-2018, 10:19 AM   #8
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What is going to cost you less? What is going to be reliable?

Your end goal is more seat time. You can make either one handle about equal but either way you go, chances are the car will outperform you.

Personally if you don't lose too much money, I would go GC. it will be cheaper to run overall, it will probably be more reliable, and if it does break it will be cheaper to fix.
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Old 02-15-2018, 10:22 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SKVang View Post
Since ive no experience in autocross/tracking, i feel like the sti will be too much power for me to start with and i should start out with learning how to drive and then adjust car as i master it.
This is all about the learning experience of the car. You just don't mash the pedal as much until you get a better handle on how the car "works".

What condition is your STi currently in?
If it was me, and the car was good, I would:
1. Keep the car
2. Learn to drive it better
3. Upgrade as I feel I needed.

Overall, the cost to you would be less.
Remember, you can change the car's handling, braking, etc. either up or down.
- Buying adjustable swaybars allows you too add roll stiffness, but also allows you to reduce roll stiffness, depending on what bars you buy.
- Higher or lower performing brake pads.
- etc.

Another thing you could do is go to some performance driving schools.
Think Rally ( NOT RallyCross ), Auto-X.
Courses like that will teach you how to handle your car on different surfaces and set up your turns
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Old 02-15-2018, 10:29 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by STi320 View Post
Since questions you havent asked yet are being answered Ill step in. The GD is a better chassis. The GC is a lighter chassis. If auto-x is mostly what you want it for and handling takes precedent I would suggest going GC. You will be able to make a GC more nimble with less effort, time and money than the GD. Its just a smaller car... period! Of course just about any vehicle can be made to handle well but how much time, effort and money do you want to put in.
I have a GD with years of development and I love it, but even being completely stripped out its still a fat ass 3000lb pig. It has taken me years to get the car to feel neutral during cornering.
Why is the GD chassis better than the GC?
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Old 02-15-2018, 10:38 AM   #11
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From a racing standpoint its just plain stronger, but at the sacrifice of weight.
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Old 02-15-2018, 10:39 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Samurai Jack View Post
Another thing you could do is go to some performance driving schools.
Think Rally ( NOT RallyCross ), Auto-X.
Courses like that will teach you how to handle your car on different surfaces and set up your turns
I'm not sure I understand this? Are you saying that you can somehow learn better on an AutoCross course than a RallyCross course?
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Old 02-15-2018, 10:52 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by STi320 View Post
From a racing standpoint its just plain stronger, but at the sacrifice of weight.
In other words: its increased structural rigidity will benefit handling at higher speeds and g forces?
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Old 02-15-2018, 10:56 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Samurai Jack View Post
What condition is your STi currently in?
My STI still runs and drives but is my first subaru. It was posted for a killer deal but I didn't do my research enough before buying it. It had aftermarket pipings and I knew that subarus should be tuned with each mod done to it so i was like cool, ill get it tuned right after buying it just so that it's reliable and peace of mind. When I had it leaked down, that's when the unforunate news came, my 4th cylinder wasn't so good. I was told that it's highly because of bad ringland. So now it's just been sitting in the garage and I haven't had much driving with it, sadly. Thus, the thought between selling it and getting the car that I always wanted (the gc) or rebuild block. But if the STI outweighs a GC so much, I'll just stay with the STI.
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Old 02-15-2018, 11:20 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lpxltt View Post
I'm not sure I understand this? Are you saying that you can somehow learn better on an AutoCross course than a RallyCross course?
I think you are confusing what I am saying.
Both Rally and Auto-X driving courses have a lot to teach you about your car and you ( as the Driver )

Rally Driving courses teach you how to handle a car on:
- dry & wet surfaces
- dirt, pavement and gravel
- soft mud and wet gravel
- snow
- setting up the car to take turns from different angles
- tight and loose turns
- uphill & down hill turns
- etc.

RallyCross is just Motocross ( motorcycles ) but with a car.

Auto-X Driving courses will teach you similar things as above, but, as far as I know, are only done on dry surfaces.
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Old 02-15-2018, 11:27 AM   #16
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When I had it leaked down, that's when the unforunate news came, my 4th cylinder wasn't so good. I was told that it's highly because of bad ringland. So now it's just been sitting in the garage and I haven't had much driving with it, sadly.
Nothing says you have to go crazy rebuilding the motor.
A lot of power is not always a good thing. You can just rebuild the motor to stock levels and still have plenty of power on tap to use.

Or, you could buy a JDM motor and have it swapped in. Typically cheaper than a rebuild.
- Labor is all the same
- Accessories that need upgrading are all the same ( clutch, master cylinder, hoses, etc.)
- The motor would be pretty much a drop in when you get it.
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Old 02-15-2018, 12:12 PM   #17
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Ok, so I have to ask. What's your goal here? I don't mean just starting autocrossing....what do you plan to do in the future with the car and with the racing? Classes in autocross, time trials, wheel to wheel are set based on car capabilities. I used to go searching for a new car with both autocross and roadrace rule books under my arm. Salesmen were baffled by my looking into prior year results and telling them "no, that's the dog of SSB class while this other car is top of the heap in SSC".

Sure, it's cool to take a car and do the NASIOC thing to mod the piss out of it. But that's going to put you in classes against fire breathing monsters that'll be 20 seconds faster than you on a one minute course.

Take the rule book. Look at the car you're interested in. Look at what else is in class. Look at prior year times for the class and where the cars fit. Look at what's allowed for mods in class and what they cost.

I'm a firm believer in learning with a low powered car for both autocross and track. You have to learn and follow a good line or you get killed. You'll learn the line. Move up to higher power cars as you gain skill.
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Old 02-15-2018, 12:18 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 86Dreams View Post
In other words: its increased structural rigidity will benefit handling at higher speeds and g forces?
That is part of it. If the OP was saying he/she wants to build a track monster or a rally car I would say keep the GD for the chassis strength and end support for that chassis because Its getting hard to find good GC parts. When OP mentions only A/X I am inclined to suggest the smaller/lighter GC merely do to physics.
Weight and heat are huge factors in any form of racing, they are the two things you want the least of. But when it comes to high speed, high loads, safety etc.., I would suggest keeping the GD.
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Old 02-15-2018, 12:53 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SKVang View Post
I am debating on rebuilding my 05 sti or selling it and buying a gc. To those that has experience with both, which one do you feel handles better? I am planning to get into auto crossing and would prefer handling over power.
Whats your "rebuild" involve with your STI? If you already have a car, thats a good car, just use that. Are you going to daily it? Or just keep it for an auto-x weekend car?

Having owned/driven/raced/swapped both, i can tell you the GD is a much better car as it comes from the factory, its a much more refined version of the GC, the main thing being extra body material around the cabin, its quite a bit stiffer, but both cars share the same chassis design.

Stock for stock, the GD is an infinitely superior car on a road course, but we'll stick to auto-x since thats your goal.

As both cars would sit, stock from the factory, the GC can be about 600 or so lbs lighter than an STI but is impossibly gutless with usually less than 100whp. If you buy a GC, go for a 2.5 RS as the equipment that comes with the car makes life way easier than buying a base L model, 2.5 engine, rear discs, better suspension, nicer interior etc. The main thing being the engine, the EJ251 is ten thousand times better than any other naturally-aspirated engine offered in an Impreza and will get you a little over 100-110whp if its got some mileage on it, its enough to be quick in a short-twisty autocross course.

For a cheap weekend race car, a gutted GC impreza 2.5RS with good tires and suspension work will absolutely kick ass on a tight designed course, if the course has long slaloms or wide corners where faster cars can pick up speed or heavier cars dont have to manage their weight transfer, they will pull away from your lap times.

At the same time, you already have an STI, which with the same mods can do just as quick of lap times but you'll have more power to make up for added weight or driver error.

Ive been autocrossing an 3000lbs 01 Forester for two years, same chassis and engine as an impreza. It has 308k miles, makes 100whp on the nose, and can run circles around cars with triple the power a tight course, and i have the trophies to prove it. If your doing this to get into autocross, and its a lot of fun, you can vastly improve your driving skill with a slower lighter car rather than relying on power to make up for mistakes.

tl/dr, if you want to just go fast, fix your STI. If you want to improve on driver skill with a slow cheap car, go get an 2.5 RS GC. For the ultimate car, put your STI drivetrain in a GC.
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Old 02-15-2018, 01:14 PM   #20
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^^^ This... all of it
A smaller, lighter more flickable car with less power is much more fun than a heavy car with loads of power!
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Old 02-15-2018, 01:27 PM   #21
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First off, I agree with the above in your first year of autox should just be seat time. A stock car, a friend's car, whatever. I'd even recommend all season or 500TW summer tires - NOT sticky RE71R, which can cover up many driving mistakes of newbies.

I've owned and autocross both platforms.

Autox specifically is going to come down to classing. Let's be real, a GC in a stock SCCA class just isn't going to be that competitive anymore. There are newer, quicker cars out there in classes like GS. Second, good luck finding a GC that's stock and in decent shape. That leaves us with the lighter modified classes, which is where many WRX/STI end up at when owners add 'stage 2' mods.

GC -> STS if modified with suspension, brakes, wheels, tires, catback.
GD STi -> STU (maybe STH now? Haven't looked for the STI specifically yet) if modified with suspension, brakes, wheels, tires, and turboback.

STS you're running against quick Civics and other STS specifically prepped cars. STH you're running against more highly prepped and quicker turbo cars, because well, a turbo Subaru is faster than NA.

I creeped on your previous threads and I see "I will be upgrading to 95.5mm forged pistons"... well that's going to push you way up into a modified class like SM. You're going to be completely outclassed. Here you'll be up against top drivers with experience and highly prepped cars. You'll be near last in many events and get discouraged.

My opinion: Fix your STI with stock internals. Keep it with the turboback since you have all that, race in STU(or H), LEARN, and eventually get swaybars and good tires down the line. Probably not this year.

But hey, end of the day, your first year or two, you probably won't be competitive at all, so stay as stock as possible and just go get seat time.
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Old 02-15-2018, 02:52 PM   #22
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I used to run a 00 rs in STS. Fun. I didn't have an extremely good driver take my car for a lap, but a good driver (never driven a subie) subtracted 2 seconds off my times (just sub 60 sec for the sts cars). I subtracted 4 seconds off my time taking a fully prepped for sts 89 civic having only ever raced my subi. Figure out what class you want to be in eventually and start with the car that will put you there and slowly mod it to get you where you want to be, or get/build the car you really want and race in whatever class you end up in and say screw it to your placements.
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Old 02-15-2018, 06:31 PM   #23
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Keep the STI.

You will have MUCH MUCH better class options for a lightly modded car (STU/STH or ASP), and less to have to upgrade with the STi in order to be competitive in said classes. Not to mention the STi will have the better transmission and wheel bearings already. Generally the older the car is, the more fried the bushings are, the worse shape the wheel bearings are, etc - you will have to look at those things on whichever car you decide on.
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Old 02-16-2018, 01:46 PM   #24
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Buy a GC and throw all GD suspension components into it including the brakes and steering rack (which all bolts in). Then all you need to do is just stiffen the chassis a bit and you save somewhere around 300-400 of weight and a killer car.
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Old 02-16-2018, 02:46 PM   #25
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Eh, I couldn't figure out what I wanted to quote, then post a reply.

Quite a few good replies.

From my background of DH ski racing, regional and national sailplane racing, regional AutoX, etc., best bet is to, "tune the nut behind the wheel/stick". This involves seat time.

Peeps that think they can buy the "latest/greatest" and do well are large.
In general, all they did was lighten their wallet and may get frustrated and bail in a couple years.

If your car is paid for, do maintenance, then run, figure what on the car is slowing you down, know the rule book (a minor mod may bump you up to a class where the cars will kick your butt....).
Yes, having someone with more experience ride with you will likely help you get better.

At some point, yes, the basic car becomes an issue, but for likely 90% of peeps, the driver is the biggest issue.
I know it still is for me.
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