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Old 04-09-2013, 10:01 AM   #2801
msennati
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Default Hey John......

Quote:
Originally Posted by em99sport View Post
I'm using Ferodo DS2500s. I don't mind brake dive, as I use it to load the fronts when transitioning or negotiating a tighter element. I suppose with a looser setup it would be troublesome, but it works with my car/driving style.
John,
You gonna come play here in Greensboro on Sunday?

Marino
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Old 04-09-2013, 10:06 AM   #2802
penderperson
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Im looking to pick up some wheels, debating whether I should get 9 or 9.5s. How close is the fit on 9.5s?

Will 38mm work for 9.5s and 45mm for
9s??

Planning 3.2/2.2 camber have lateral links that I can adjust in the rear and spacers in the front if needed.
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Old 04-09-2013, 10:50 AM   #2803
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Depending on how lowered your car is, it will take a fair amount of roll/pull on the rear quarters. The front fenders will (for the most part) be fine, you may just rub the inner liners a bit.

I have 17x9s (edit: +45) with 255/40 RS3s (I'm not in ST*, so not limited to 245) on my '04 WRX, the rear lips are rolled - but not flat - and there is a slight, slight pull from using the roller on them. I'm running less than 2 degrees in the rear, and 2.5-3ish in the front. (I'll know for sure when I get my alignment this weekend.)

Last edited by T-37; 04-10-2013 at 09:55 AM. Reason: added offset :derp:
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Old 04-09-2013, 11:59 AM   #2804
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I think +45's are best for 9.5's, you'll likely have issues with +38. Actually, you'll likely have issues in the rear with +38 for anything but a 17" wheel...and even then it's pretty close depending on how low you are.
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Old 04-09-2013, 12:07 PM   #2805
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msennati View Post
John,
You gonna come play here in Greensboro on Sunday?

Marino
No, but I'll be at Zmax on Saturday.
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Old 04-10-2013, 07:56 AM   #2806
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Originally Posted by em99sport View Post
No, but I'll be at Zmax on Saturday.
Too bad.
I was thinking about doing ZMax on Saturday but I'm not sure if I can make it.
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Old 04-11-2013, 01:11 PM   #2807
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Originally Posted by msennati View Post
Done the left side and starting the right now but thought I would post my measurements/observations before I forget.
The od of the new conical spacer is much smaller than the OE. The OE spacer od is 1.65" (same as the flat top part of the spring hat).
The replacement od is 0.985".
I installed without a additional washer as you described above and will keep an eye out for bending you had.
One thing to note for anyone using Koni strut inserts:
The strut nut is too tall to get a wrench/socket on the 9mm head of the Koni strut. You could mill off 1/8" and be fine or carefully use an impact wrench (seems many do). I don't do either so I tightened by hand until the Koni shaft started to turn. I installed the strut, jacked the control arm up to put the strut under load and then wacked the wrench on the nut with my the handle of my hammer.
I think I got it to tighten pretty good but we'll see.............
To finish my earlier post:
Got everything installed on Saturday. I did a string alignment just to make sure nothing was way off, drove a little on Sunday and went for an alignment on Monday.
Told them what I had done, what I was looking for and asked them to call me with initial numbers before they did anything.

Initial Alignment specs with the plates rotated/canted one hole and the OE bolts to max camber.
Caster:8.11 L/8.09R
Camber:-3.26 L/-3.25 R
Toe: -0.09 L/0.03 R

Told them not to touch it and picked the car up. I called TIC and they told me what I already knew; un-rotate/cant the plates.
Did the rotation that afternoon (took about 75 minutes) and took it back for an alignment the next day.
Before I rotated the plates I drove it a bit to see how it felt. The car felt lazy to turn and I perceived it needed more effort on the wheel.
There was no wobble or other funky stuff that I could tell but I didn't push it either.

Final alignment with plates at standard rotation/canted position and pushed all the way in. Adjustments were made with the OE bolts for camber:
Caster: 7.0 L/6.84 R
Camber: -3.18 L/-3.2 R (could have done ~3.7 or so maxed out)
Toe: 0.00 L/ -0.01 R
Rear
Camber -1/58 L/-1.58 R
Toe: -0.01 L/0.00 R

Drives well and we will see Sunday how the car and I do.

Last edited by msennati; 04-11-2013 at 01:16 PM.
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Old 04-11-2013, 01:53 PM   #2808
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^^^ Just curious what your reasoning was for wanting to remove the Caster?
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Old 04-11-2013, 03:26 PM   #2809
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^^^ Just curious what your reasoning was for wanting to remove the Caster?
Same question I have. I know there's such a thing as too much caster, but on a Macstrut front car used for DD (limitations on static camber), I think the first setting might have been the way to go.

All this caster talk has encouraged me to get a measurement on mine, although my Longacre Dunlop-style gauge is awful imprecise for reading it, IMO.
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Old 04-11-2013, 04:00 PM   #2810
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I'm not sure simply maxing out the caster is that good of an idea. It only provides camber gain as a result of steering angle, so it would still be very car dependent how much you would actually need. It also creates lots of bump steer if you can't change the steering angles to compensate. I stopped using the camber plates for added caster because of the bump steer issue. The car also generated really strange wheel angles and funky ackerman behavior at high steering inputs, such as parking the car.

I'm running the stock 06 STI caster with 3deg camber at events, and I still get the most tire heat on the inside of the front tires. With more caster, that should only get worse.
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Old 04-11-2013, 04:01 PM   #2811
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With that said, I plan to install the KCA375 offset bushings for a bit more caster. In reality, I only want to do that to increase the wheelbase of the car and put more of the motor behind the front wheels
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Old 04-11-2013, 05:16 PM   #2812
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinTX View Post
With that said, I plan to install the KCA375 offset bushings for a bit more caster. In reality, I only want to do that to increase the wheelbase of the car and put more of the motor behind the front wheels
How much caster did you have when you observed the bumpsteer and Ackerman issues?
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Old 04-11-2013, 05:38 PM   #2813
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Quote:
Originally Posted by em99sport View Post
Same question I have. I know there's such a thing as too much caster, but on a Macstrut front car used for DD (limitations on static camber), I think the first setting might have been the way to go.
All this caster talk has encouraged me to get a measurement on mine, although my Longacre Dunlop-style gauge is awful imprecise for reading it, IMO.
I did a search on adding too much caster. You can do your own, but what I read is that more caster makes the car more stable in a straight line and you will gain camber when the wheel is turned (that makes sense when you look at the angles). But, it can also make the car less responsive to turn-in, harder to steer and other issues like wheel wobble, blah, blah...........
I felt both the lazy turn-in and harder steering wheel.

How much caster is too much, I don't know but the guys at TIC highly recommended that I reduce it and to be careful with any aggressive driving until i did. Seems like ~7 degrees is the recommended max for my car.
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Old 04-11-2013, 09:16 PM   #2814
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Right on, good to know.

Fwiw, with my plates in "normal" configuration, they picked up a little caster over stock. After flipping them, they picked up even more, and steering response has seemingly improved a good bit as well. Maybe I'm just right in that sweet spot now. I'll get numbers soon (maybe Sunday), and share them here.
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Old 04-11-2013, 10:52 PM   #2815
msennati
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Quote:
Originally Posted by em99sport View Post
Right on, good to know.
Fwiw, with my plates in "normal" configuration, they picked up a little caster over stock. After flipping them, they picked up even more, and steering response has seemingly improved a good bit as well. Maybe I'm just right in that sweet spot now. I'll get numbers soon (maybe Sunday), and share them here.
I think stock caster is 5.8 deg on my car so I've added more than a degree.
Went for a jaunt this evening, nothing but a few clover leaves. The steering felt much more responsive, not sloppy like earlier. I'll find out Sunday.

Good luck on Saturday.
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Old 04-15-2013, 12:12 PM   #2816
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msennati View Post
Final alignment with plates at standard rotation/canted position and pushed all the way in. Adjustments were made with the OE bolts for camber:
Caster: 7.0 L/6.84 R
Camber: -3.18 L/-3.2 R (could have done ~3.7 or so maxed out)
Toe: 0.00 L/ -0.01 R
Rear
Camber -1/58 L/-1.58 R
Toe: -0.01 L/0.00 R

Drives well and we will see Sunday how the car and I do.
So your final orientation, the adjustment is camber-only (not camber and caster)? And they still picked up some caster that way? I didn't realize they had built in caster.
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Old 04-15-2013, 05:17 PM   #2817
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Had a great time at the MW Pro despite massive understeer on my BFG's. They may not suit my driving style, but they definitely have the pace. Interesting tire note - Rob and Jon ran Z2's on Saturday morning and their nationals Z1*'s on Saturday afternoon. Seems that their assessment matches mine perfectly - Z1*'s balance the car out much better than Z2's (Z2's push, and Z1*'s rotate well). It seems that there is no significant difference in ultimate pace between old and new given the same car setup. Time to change the setup a bit and see if either of the new pushy tires get faster - I ordered the KCA375M's
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Old 04-16-2013, 12:14 AM   #2818
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mind View Post
So your final orientation, the adjustment is camber-only (not camber and caster)? And they still picked up some caster that way? I didn't realize they had built in caster.
The camber slot is not perpendicular to the sides of the car but mildly canted towards the rear. You can not set them do be perpendicular, camber only.
If I had centered the bearing in the plate I would have gotten much less, if any, increase in caster.
I pushed the bearing full inboard for max camber, picked up about 0.8 deg of caster and I got -3.2 deg camber with the OE camber bolts set to ~ neutral.

Last edited by msennati; 04-16-2013 at 12:36 AM. Reason: added more info
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Old 04-16-2013, 08:16 AM   #2819
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinTX View Post
Had a great time at the MW Pro despite massive understeer on my BFG's. They may not suit my driving style, but they definitely have the pace. Interesting tire note - Rob and Jon ran Z2's on Saturday morning and their nationals Z1*'s on Saturday afternoon. Seems that their assessment matches mine perfectly - Z1*'s balance the car out much better than Z2's (Z2's push, and Z1*'s rotate well). It seems that there is no significant difference in ultimate pace between old and new given the same car setup. Time to change the setup a bit and see if either of the new pushy tires get faster - I ordered the KCA375M's
You ordered the whats?

When I ran the Z2's last, pushy wasn't a symptom that I noticed. What is your spring/bar setup like? I was comparing some notes with Rob last night and he was talking about how he's running a stiffer spring/bar setup than I am (600/500 with 24/22 bars at full soft). I think that with the very stiff sidewall on the Z2's, running 245's on a front heavy pig on stiff springs overloads the front tires too quickly and doesn't allow them to really take a set. Might need more roll in the suspension to get the tire to work better.

As far as the BFG's, what tire pressures are you running? You would think that if my theory above is correct, than the BFG's should have less understeer than the Z2's with the softer sidewall...but maybe it's too soft? I'm running 40psi in front to try and get some better feel on turn in with the BFG's. Looking at rollover on the tire, seems to be rolling over enough to be useful and not skating on top of the tire.

Shane and I softened up the front of the car this weekend by softening the front bar. We were at full stiff on the 24mm bar and put it to full soft (only two settings on the Whiteline). Between that and adding some rebound to keep the car from porpoiseing (sp?) like it was previously, the suspension is actually taking the bumps as they should and the front end grip seems to be much improved.

I'm not sure that any of what I'm saying is correct, but just some of my thoughts. FWIW, we haven't been slow on the BFG's and I don't hate driving on them. Shane was 0.3s PAX off of Strano on Sunday, and with a correction to one corner, probably would have beat him. On Saturday we were about 0.8s off of Sam (including a couple of decent mistakes), but on a Sweeperfest course with only one place to actually get on the throttle. Very similar to the West Course at Nats last year where we got owned by Tristan.

And with all of that...I still don't know what the right answer is going to be. I'll be testing at Spring Nats and I'm sure Rob and I will be doing some car and knowledge swapping on the practice course to see what we can learn between our two setups and the BFG vs. Dunlop.
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Old 04-16-2013, 08:50 AM   #2820
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I ordered the offset bushings for the front. The extra wheelbase should do 'something' to the front grip, and it isn't too hard to reverse out if it doesn't improve things. If I can't increase the front grip, I will try adding a bunch more air in the rear to induce less rear grip.

I was running 550F/500R springs, 27mmF/29mmR bars, -3F, -1.1R camber, 40PSIF/32PSIR pressures. The Ohlins are pretty stiff, So I don't typically have any porpoising.

I fully expect to have the same understeer issue at nationals by running Thursday/Friday, so it is finally time to start playing with my setup. NEED MOAR FRONT GRIP!!!
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Old 04-16-2013, 10:15 AM   #2821
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Interesting notes on the bars and camber. You're running much stiffer bars and a lot less camber than I am in the rear: I'm at -3.2f and -2.0r camber.

Also as it relates to front grip vs. your setup, I have the offset bushings AND I'm running 15mm spacers that are widening the front track. Mainly it's to make the Enkei's fit, but also I put them there to try and increase front grip. It seemed to work when I did it.

Related to the rear camber too, some more rear camber might help the rear slide a bit more initially on turn in and give it more time to slide before rolling onto the full contact patch. So you'll get the car turned in front more before full rear grip takes place and should improve front grip a bit.

I think.

(I've been talking to Ian Baker and Sam Strano a lot over the past few events and I'm just repeating things that they are telling me. I are not teh smrt.)
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Old 04-16-2013, 10:29 AM   #2822
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I have no problem with initial turn-in. It's the massive static understeer I have

Yeah, I know my rear camber is not per typical setup convention. Once I get the bushings in and get some test time on them, I will start doing other things. The car is still plenty fast - it just doesn't work to my liking on mid-corner to corner exit anymore. I find myself bombing into corners with more trailing brake and then catching the slip angle later in the corner to get more rotation now. I miss the liveliness of the rear end on the Z1*'s, but I am now being forced to drive a more tidy line.
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Old 04-16-2013, 10:31 AM   #2823
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Oh, and tire wear on my current setup is very good. All tires are wearing evenly and relatively the same F/R. I got a little bit more front wear this weekend, but I think it's a product of the really long sweeper on each course that was inducing lots of understeer.
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Old 04-16-2013, 10:34 AM   #2824
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Sorry if I wasn't explicit, but not talking about initial turn in. But with more rear camber, the rear will continue to rotate more/longer before full contact patch/grip takes hold. Should help especially in the sweepers methinks.

Try the bushings, but also think about trying more rear camber. At -1.1 degrees, you have a lot more rear grip going on that would induce understeer.
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Old 04-16-2013, 10:56 AM   #2825
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Yeah, reducing rear grip will make the car feel better. I just think that reducing rear grip will not increase front grip and should therefore not improve the overall performance. I'll work through changes to the front first. Next, I'll try higher rear pressures. Then, I might rethink my low rear camber setting - but only because you insist!

BTW - I finally rolled my car onto the scales - 3086 with 1/8th tank (light not on yet). Gotta get those stock seats out of it at some point
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