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Old 01-12-2017, 07:34 PM   #1
Imprezaspeed07
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Default 2007 WRX engine rebuild

I was just notified today that I have a ringland failure in cylinder 4 (70 psi and 80% leakdown)

This is a track car and I'm currently stage 2 plus ebcs and an aftermarket intercooler.

So I'm thinking a shortblock with at least better pistons. And probably a killer b pickup, but what else should I have on this car to prevent any other ringland issues or engine problems.

I will probably get a new turbo in the future fyi.

Any advice is much appreciated!
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Old 01-13-2017, 09:45 AM   #2
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Without knowing the exact cause of failure, your question can't be answered.

Ringland failure is a known issue in the 257s due to bad piston design. Typical resolve is a rebuild w/forged pistons
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Old 01-13-2017, 10:52 AM   #3
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How exactly would I go about finding the exact cause without pulling the engine? The dealer told me is was a ringland failure so what else do I need to do to confirm this? Keep in mind that this is a DD and I need it for work.
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Old 01-13-2017, 10:58 AM   #4
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Is it a DD or a track car? You've stated both and they don't mix well in the long run.
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Old 01-13-2017, 10:59 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Samurai Jack View Post
Without knowing the exact cause of failure, your question can't be answered.

Ringland failure is a known issue in the 257s due to bad piston design. Typical resolve is a rebuild w/forged pistons
In that case, good thing he has a 255.
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Old 01-13-2017, 11:00 AM   #6
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Yes, Good Point. It is a DD that I track a few times per year. Eventually, it will be turned into a track car, but for right now I need to be able to put some more mileage on it as a DD.
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Old 01-13-2017, 11:04 AM   #7
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If it's failing leakdown and compression, there really is no more proof needed. You can take it to a separate shop and have them verify the readings if you want.

I'd personally get a shortblock from IAG or Outfront as at moderate power levels it will last you plenty as a DD and will be able to take the power if you turn it up for a track car down the road.
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Old 01-13-2017, 11:45 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Imprezaspeed07 View Post
How exactly would I go about finding the exact cause without pulling the engine?
Nothing. Once you have that kind of suspected failure, and you fail compression and leak down tests, you have to start pulling things apart to see what's what.
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Old 01-13-2017, 11:45 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nofriends View Post
In that case, good thing he has a 255.
https://forums.nasioc.com/forums/sho....php?t=2732312
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Old 01-13-2017, 11:47 AM   #10
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So I was thinking about an IAG stage one plus to get tighter clearances as opposed to drop in pistons, do you think this is worth it?

Also, I cannot find any reputable builders in New Orleans, LA, but there is an IAG recommended shop 3 hours away in Pensacola.

Is it worth it to make the commute or just have someone do it in New Orleans?
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Old 01-13-2017, 11:51 AM   #11
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Only you can make that decision.

Which do you think would gain you the best overall results? An IAG recommended shop ( even thought it's 3 hours way ) or a local shop in New Orleans who is not reputable?

IAG is said to build excellent motors and has excellent service.
If it was me, that is what I would go with, especially if they are putting their name on that shop.

Just remember there is more to this than just the short block swap. You will probably need @least some head work. Talk to the recommended shop about what may be involved in your situation and how long they will need the car for. I'd plan for @least a week.
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Old 01-13-2017, 01:06 PM   #12
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I talked to both shops by me and they quote around a month or more once the car is dropped off. So that is a significant amount of time that I will be out of a car. I'm thinking of buying a cheap car for that timeframe.

In the meantime, a few upgrades were mentioned, such as the killerbee pickup, crawford AOS, and TGV deletes. Should I get these done and is there anything else I should have done while they are replacing the engine? Also, one shop mentioned replacing the oil pan. Is this necessary?
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Old 01-13-2017, 01:35 PM   #13
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Down time for this type of thing is also dependent on the machine shop and how busy they are.

A lot depends on the shop, their timetable, their sub-contractor's timetable, obtaining parts, etc. Telling you a month is giving plenty of room for delays.

All this will vary by shop.

I'd go with the IAG AOS over the Crawford. Better unit and you are not paying for the Crawford name.

Replacing the oil pan is normal. Less expensive to simply install a new pan than paying the shop to clean up the old pan.

Do you really NEED the TGV Deletes? Probably not.
Will it hurt? No
Can you afford it? Up to you

If you get a new pan, you may as well go with an 06 STi pan, and then get the KillerB Oil Pickup for the STi pan.
Give KillerB a call or drop an e-mail to confirm.
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Old 01-13-2017, 05:20 PM   #14
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So I just got a quote from a Dane from Performance Motorsports in Mandeville, LA who has a lot of positive feedback and is a Subaru expert.

He said that an AOS system isn't ideal because it can introduce water into the engine. But he is going to use a Moroso oil pickup instead of killer B because its half the price and comparable quality. And he does the TGV deletes automatically in his builds. He will be boring out my existing engine instead of buying someone else's shortblock. He does his own machining so I don't need to wait for him to outsource the work.

See his quote below. What do you think?

Also, he said that he wouldn't be doing a head job from the get go. Is this an issue?

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B-...AzQnUzRFQ4U2NF

I also talked with Kosmic Tuning and Driven Performance, but they are not local
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Old 01-13-2017, 08:05 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Imprezaspeed07 View Post
He said that an AOS system isn't ideal because it can introduce water into the engine.
Regardless of an AOS, condensation has a tendency to accumulate in the hoses & hard lines that stem from the valve covers and route across the intercooler, especially on a cold start... warm crankcase air flowing through cold lines = condensation; this happens with or without an AOS installed.
An AOS system typically requires some additional hose length which in-turn increases the volume of air in the system. If you increase volume & available surface area I think it's reasonable to expect a bit more condensation. However, you need to remove the OEM lines to install the AOS, so the net volume added really isn't that much. If anything, a catch can style AOS will end up removing some moisture - it'll collect in the can and you'll drain it. In short, since moisture is going to exist in either scenario you're better off with (to capture oil mist), than without (to burn oil mist).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Imprezaspeed07 View Post
he is going to use a Moroso oil pickup instead of killer B because its half the price and comparable quality.
I opted for a Morso pickup on my 07 STI build for the same reason. It's less expensive, not as pretty but still a quality part. No regrets here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Imprezaspeed07 View Post
he does the TGV deletes automatically in his builds.
Note that this is a semi-permanent mod that will require you to disable DTC codes in the ECU. *edit: noticed your getting a tune.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Imprezaspeed07 View Post
He will be boring out my existing engine instead of buying someone else's shortblock. He does his own machining so I don't need to wait for him to outsource the work.
Note that anything more than a hone typically requires larger diameter pistons... this will add $400 - $500 and you'll start wondering if you'd rather have a brand new case, crank & rods with 0 miles on them for a few hundred $ more.
**edit: just saw your quote... block hardware components add up to $1k. Of the $2.5k in R&R labor, I'm willing to bet at least $1k is allocated towards cleaning, machining & assembly. So, if they shave off $1k to simply swap a block, you're now ~$600 off from a base shortblock from IAG... that also has a warranty. You can probably save another $200 on head gaskets ($300 seems high). I swear I'm not a salesman and I'm not trying to create a difficult decision for you, but consider these options. Also, don't forget a new OEM block can be had for around ~$1,700 as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Imprezaspeed07 View Post
Also, he said that he wouldn't be doing a head job from the get go. Is this an issue?
As mentioned above, without understanding the failure mode there is an unknown risk of metal particulate hanging out in your oil system anxiously waiting to spin one of your new bearings. Understand how and why it failed. Aside from that, I recommend decking the heads and block to ensure headgasket seal integrity. Now is also the time to open & clean out head oil galleries, replace valve seals, lap valves, pressure test and adjust your valve clearance. Not servicing heads that have 10 years of use while the engine is out is a mistake... you don't want to have to do this a year from now. Ballpark cost to do it now should be around $300-$400 ish. To put it into perspective, the cost just to adjust valve clearance at the dealer with the motor in is far greater.

While your cam gears are off, I recommend opening them and cleaning them out too. Reassembly can be screwed up (halves not being concentric with each other), it's not a big deal if you're aware of it. If your shop isn't comfortable doing it, Outfront Motorsports offers a service, or you can take them home and DIY them

I recently rebuilt my motor this past spring. If I had to do it again I would have gone with an IAG short block for a variety of reasons. They have notes on their site that are a good read; they offer recommendations & other considerations if you're interested: https://www.iagperformance.com/v/vsp...ipping-Doc.pdf

Last edited by Subie_; 01-13-2017 at 08:49 PM.
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Old 01-14-2017, 02:16 AM   #16
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Any kind of warranty with this guys work? That's one of the best quotes I've seen for a build like this. Very reasonable. I've seen some as high as 10,000. When I rebuilt my '11 my heads did not need any work. I had them cleaned and decked and checked for water and valve leakage. Only reason I chose to rebuild vs new Subaru is that I was able to verify all of my clearances and put aftermarket rods in. With what he's doing for you, I spent $3840 and did all of the work myself. Not saying to do it yourself, but that speaks a lot for the quote you got as far as value. Quality of course is dependent on his expierence. Also, my tune is $700 because I'm doing flex fuel and dyno tune.
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Old 01-16-2017, 07:56 AM   #17
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The price is in the ball park for this type of work. Price always varies by location ( part of the country ) as well as whatever the shop has to pay to maintain the shop ( rental space, etc.).

As a comparison, I was looking at the same price range but that included new STi rods and refreshed heads.

Not at least refreshing the heads is a mistake. Like the rest of the motor, the heads have wear and tear so they should be gone over and refreshed or you will have issues down the road.

Putting in a high flow oil pump is unnecessary. A new oil pump and oil cooler definitely.

While you want to clean out the oil passages in the heads, you don't want to open them up greater than they are ( removing material to make them physically larger ). That will reduce overall head oil pressure, and will cause problems.

Do you NEED an AOS? No, not really. Is it a good idea? Yes! As was mentioned, the point of an AOS or a catch can is to remove oil mist from the intake tract so you are not diluting your air/fuel mixture with oil, reducing your overall combustion process. The AOS also helps to remove that oil collecting in your TMIC, turbo, etc.

I'd ask more questions of this builder. Such as, why not at least refresh the heads ( disassemble, clean, inspect, new valve seals ) should be a minimum. New valves if needed.

And, as mentioned already, you WANT the block and heads decked so you have fresh smooth and even mating surfaces.
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Old 01-16-2017, 10:21 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Imprezaspeed07 View Post
How exactly would I go about finding the exact cause without pulling the engine? The dealer told me is was a ringland failure so what else do I need to do to confirm this? Keep in mind that this is a DD and I need it for work.
You/the shop could have some idea by listening during the leakdown test. While each cylinder is pressurized, you listen in the intake, oil fill and the exhaust pipe. On any cylinder that is leaking you will hear a hissing sound proportional to the leak. If it's bad rings/blown ringland, you will hear it through the oil fill tube. If it's an intake valve open, you will hear it through the intake, etc.

At this point though, to know any more requires pulling the engine apart.
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Old 01-17-2017, 01:22 AM   #19
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This is what he said about the heads:

The heads, i resurface the deck, and i check valve lash, and i check to make sure the valves seal on the seats
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Old 01-17-2017, 06:34 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sub2010ss View Post
Any kind of warranty with this guys work? That's one of the best quotes I've seen for a build like this. Very reasonable. I've seen some as high as 10,000. When I rebuilt my '11 my heads did not need any work. I had them cleaned and decked and checked for water and valve leakage. Only reason I chose to rebuild vs new Subaru is that I was able to verify all of my clearances and put aftermarket rods in. With what he's doing for you, I spent $3840 and did all of the work myself. Not saying to do it yourself, but that speaks a lot for the quote you got as far as value. Quality of course is dependent on his expierence. Also, my tune is $700 because I'm doing flex fuel and dyno tune.


His warranty is 2k miles. He stated that if your engine is going to fail from a rebuild it will happen then. ( this is better than kosmic who has none)
Also he said either way he will back his work so if it is his fault he will fix it.
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Old 01-17-2017, 06:40 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Subie_ View Post
Regardless of an AOS, condensation has a tendency to accumulate in the hoses & hard lines that stem from the valve covers and route across the intercooler, especially on a cold start... warm crankcase air flowing through cold lines = condensation; this happens with or without an AOS installed.
An AOS system typically requires some additional hose length which in-turn increases the volume of air in the system. If you increase volume & available surface area I think it's reasonable to expect a bit more condensation. However, you need to remove the OEM lines to install the AOS, so the net volume added really isn't that much. If anything, a catch can style AOS will end up removing some moisture - it'll collect in the can and you'll drain it. In short, since moisture is going to exist in either scenario you're better off with (to capture oil mist), than without (to burn oil mist).
I opted for a Morso pickup on my 07 STI build for the same reason. It's less expensive, not as pretty but still a quality part. No regrets here.
Note that this is a semi-permanent mod that will require you to disable DTC codes in the ECU. *edit: noticed your getting a tune.
Note that anything more than a hone typically requires larger diameter pistons... this will add $400 - $500 and you'll start wondering if you'd rather have a brand new case, crank & rods with 0 miles on them for a few hundred $ more.
**edit: just saw your quote... block hardware components add up to $1k. Of the $2.5k in R&R labor, I'm willing to bet at least $1k is allocated towards cleaning, machining & assembly. So, if they shave off $1k to simply swap a block, you're now ~$600 off from a base shortblock from IAG... that also has a warranty. You can probably save another $200 on head gaskets ($300 seems high). I swear I'm not a salesman and I'm not trying to create a difficult decision for you, but consider these options. Also, don't forget a new OEM block can be had for around ~$1,700 as well.

As mentioned above, without understanding the failure mode there is an unknown risk of metal particulate hanging out in your oil system anxiously waiting to spin one of your new bearings. Understand how and why it failed. Aside from that, I recommend decking the heads and block to ensure headgasket seal integrity. Now is also the time to open & clean out head oil galleries, replace valve seals, lap valves, pressure test and adjust your valve clearance. Not servicing heads that have 10 years of use while the engine is out is a mistake... you don't want to have to do this a year from now. Ballpark cost to do it now should be around $300-$400 ish. To put it into perspective, the cost just to adjust valve clearance at the dealer with the motor in is far greater.

While your cam gears are off, I recommend opening them and cleaning them out too. Reassembly can be screwed up (halves not being concentric with each other), it's not a big deal if you're aware of it. If your shop isn't comfortable doing it, Outfront Motorsports offers a service, or you can take them home and DIY them

I recently rebuilt my motor this past spring. If I had to do it again I would have gone with an IAG short block for a variety of reasons. They have notes on their site that are a good read; they offer recommendations & other considerations if you're interested: https://www.iagperformance.com/v/vsp...ipping-Doc.pdf


He quoted for a new crank in that cost and as others have stated it's not easy to get iag to replace the the engine because you have to send them the engine untouched.
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Old 01-17-2017, 06:41 AM   #22
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Default 2007 WRX engine rebuild

One more thing he also recommended upgrading connecting rods to $600 rods since I will be tracking the car as insurance. They are able to handle up to 700 hp but he said he thought it was worth it for a track car

Last edited by Imprezaspeed07; 01-17-2017 at 02:49 PM.
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Old 01-17-2017, 09:00 AM   #23
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I understand upgrading for insurance ( $600 rods ) but make sure you get everything he is going to do in the quote.
You want a detailed, itemized quote.
That is your insurance against his work.

Will he state his warranty in his quote?
Is he going to at least static balance the motor prior to assembly?
Get it in the quote.

Just be prepared that you may need head work on top of everything else. Once he looks over the heads, they may be work to be done.
Get it in the quote
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Old 01-17-2017, 12:05 PM   #24
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I will ask him for that. Thanks for the advice and see the connecting rods he recommends.

BC6607, bryan crower i beams w/ arp2000 rod bolts
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Old 01-17-2017, 03:22 PM   #25
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Check out the updated quote. The labor is in the lower comments section.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B-...1KSjdzWUdvdVZz

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B-...RNREVwZ3pVYmF3
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