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Old 12-07-2013, 11:44 AM   #1426
FaastLegacy
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Originally Posted by Skunkers View Post
Usually. We've also been graced by wonderful posters like NismoSkylineGTR (but you're right, that still counts) and john_knoxville, who also have almost universally stupid/wrong posts.

Edit: Also, your username is FaastLegacy. I'm not sayin', I'm just sayin'.
Touche.

Granted, it's 12 years old now(jesus...) and it was a joke in itself poking fun at how miserably slow my 1993 Legacy L was.
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Old 12-07-2013, 11:59 AM   #1427
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Originally Posted by WRXHillClimb View Post

There was some guy on m6g talking about how the turbo 4 is basically the only option as displacement is extremely heavily taxed (go go backwards europe) and the 5.0 would basically be a $100,000 dollar car after registering. Asinine. yet another reason to not move to europe, where they seem to force some very narrow hipster view of "good, worldly, mindful, neighbor".

Hey... I feel that comment should have been reserved as a response for me at some point...
No one is asking you to move anywhere. Just stay exactly where you are :-).
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Old 12-07-2013, 12:28 PM   #1428
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Look my whole point was that if you were going to modify a turbo sports car, the easiest way is to increase boost. But to do that you need a boost controller, AND A BOOST GAUGE. Ford has put one in from the factory!
The gauges in the center of the dash are optional according to the official Ford videos. Ford isn't putting them in every EcoBoost Mustang.

If you're modifying a 2015 car you're likely going to be doing so via an ECU reflash.. boost controllers and boost gauges are so 90s.

If you're going to be modifying seriously, you aren't going to want the dinky OEM gauge anyway. You're going to throw in a proper gauge that can be read easily.

Have you even looked at the gauge up close? It's a 30psi gauge with 10psi graduations.. you aren't going to have any idea what kind of actual boost you're making via that gauge. As was said earlier.. it's either going to tell you if you're making boost or not (which even my wife could discern from her non-enthusiast buttdyno).. it's not going to tell you anything else.



Have you seen the boost gauge in the Focus ST? It's incredibly inaccurate.. it's basically just a needle to flop around under throttle. The guy in the following video has an aftermarket gauge fitted below the OEM gauge (the one in the middle).


OEM gauge packs are almost always an overpriced gimmick. This one looks no different. Many gauges in affordable cars are dummy gauges anyway. The water temp gauge in any new car has 3 positions.. cold, operating temp and overheat. When the operating temp is reached the gauge slowly creeps up from cold to the middle of the gauge and doesn't move unless an overheat occurs.

Hell, the oil pressure gauge in the NB miata was really just tied to the idiot light.. if the oil pressure light wasn't lit it showed pressure in the middle of the range. If there oil pressure light was on, it showed zero pressure on the gauge. Those were the only two modes.

It's all a bunch of cost savings. Real gauges cost money to build to a proper calibration. Dummy gauges are cheap and can swing needles around on startup to look cool and get a test driving buyer that much closer to signing for some financing.

Last edited by Calamity Jesus; 12-07-2013 at 12:33 PM.
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Old 12-07-2013, 12:28 PM   #1429
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Look my whole point was that if you were going to modify a turbo sports car, the easiest way is to increase boost. But to do that you need a boost controller, AND A BOOST GAUGE.
We all agree with that. How is it any concern of Subaru's if you modify your car afterwards? You want to up the boost, add your own gauge, or buy their optional one.

For the 50th time, if you think Subaru should supply a boost gauge standard, they you're saying every OEM should supply a vacuum/boost gauge on EVERY car, an oil temp and pressure gauge, etc. on EVERY car from the factory. That's completely unrealistic.

What else should Subaru do to make it easier/more affordable to modify your engine?



Good point above: Most OE gauges aren't going to be accurate anyway for any real use. They're mostly for entertainment value.
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Old 12-07-2013, 01:09 PM   #1430
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The gauges in the center of the dash are optional according to the official Ford videos. Ford isn't putting them in every EcoBoost Mustang.

If you're modifying a 2015 car you're likely going to be doing so via an ECU reflash.. boost controllers and boost gauges are so 90s.

If you're going to be modifying seriously, you aren't going to want the dinky OEM gauge anyway. You're going to throw in a proper gauge that can be read easily.

Have you even looked at the gauge up close? It's a 30psi gauge with 10psi graduations.. you aren't going to have any idea what kind of actual boost you're making via that gauge. As was said earlier.. it's either going to tell you if you're making boost or not (which even my wife could discern from her non-enthusiast buttdyno).. it's not going to tell you anything else.



Have you seen the boost gauge in the Focus ST? It's incredibly inaccurate.. it's basically just a needle to flop around under throttle. The guy in the following video has an aftermarket gauge fitted below the OEM gauge (the one in the middle).

Focus ST Stack ST3112 Boost Gauge Test - YouTube

OEM gauge packs are almost always an overpriced gimmick. This one looks no different. Many gauges in affordable cars are dummy gauges anyway. The water temp gauge in any new car has 3 positions.. cold, operating temp and overheat. When the operating temp is reached the gauge slowly creeps up from cold to the middle of the gauge and doesn't move unless an overheat occurs.

Hell, the oil pressure gauge in the NB miata was really just tied to the idiot light.. if the oil pressure light wasn't lit it showed pressure in the middle of the range. If there oil pressure light was on, it showed zero pressure on the gauge. Those were the only two modes.

It's all a bunch of cost savings. Real gauges cost money to build to a proper calibration. Dummy gauges are cheap and can swing needles around on startup to look cool and get a test driving buyer that much closer to signing for some financing.
MOST OEM gauges are gimmicky. Agreed. i remember "back in the 90's" my gsx had a boost gauge w/ out any numbers...

None of us have driven the ecoboost stang so this is all pure speculation anyway you cut it... One lap around the block would tell you whether the boost gauge was gimmicky or not. That said however you like to increase your boost, most times you probably shouldn't go more than 5 psi over stock w a stock turbo. If the gauge works properly it would be good to see that in real time.

Based on the logic of the statement "there's no need for a factory boost gauge", why even have a tachometer?
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Old 12-07-2013, 01:30 PM   #1431
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We all agree with that. How is it any concern of Subaru's if you modify your car afterwards? You want to up the boost, add your own gauge, or buy their optional one.

For the 50th time, if you think Subaru should supply a boost gauge standard, they you're saying every OEM should supply a vacuum/boost gauge on EVERY car, an oil temp and pressure gauge, etc. on EVERY car from the factory. That's completely unrealistic.

What else should Subaru do to make it easier/more affordable to modify your engine?



Good point above: Most OE gauges aren't going to be accurate anyway for any real use. They're mostly for entertainment value.
It's of no concern to Subaru if you modify your car.

Not all Subaru's are sports cars. Yes the WRX and STI are sporty and fast and a lot of people modify them to a crazy extent, and maybe the factory SHOULD put a properly functioning boost gauge in those models, or at least have it as an option. It would be nice. But I had a turbo forester, and it was fun, but I felt no need to modify it as it was just a daily vehicle that was good for hauling stuff around. So yeah, I would agree that not all Subaru's need a boost gauge.

I was just saying it's cool that Ford put one in from the factory (assuming it functions properly). The Mustang is probably the most commonly modified car in history, so props to Ford for knowing their consumer.
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Old 12-07-2013, 01:56 PM   #1432
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^^ I hope this time Ford is better in knowing their consumer by fitting a better drive shaft that does not crumble.
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Old 12-07-2013, 02:01 PM   #1433
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Originally Posted by sential View Post

Based on the logic of the statement "there's no need for a factory boost gauge", why even have a tachometer?
You're serious with that comparison?
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Old 12-07-2013, 02:20 PM   #1434
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You're serious with that comparison?
there's a built in rev-limiter right? Just listen to the sound of the engine and use your "butt dyno"
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Old 12-07-2013, 02:36 PM   #1435
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^^ I hope this time Ford is better in knowing their consumer by fitting a better drive shaft that does not crumble.


You mean the driveshafts in the V6s that broke after a few dumbass owners tuned them, removed the speed limiters and then proceeded to drive 120+ mph?

Yeah, if you want to drive stupid high speeds, do the smart thing and buy the GT with the better brakes, better suspension, higher rated tires and better driveshaft, not the bargain volume seller model.

Who's the target demographic for the V6 model anyway? Teenage girls and rental car companies?
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Old 12-07-2013, 03:13 PM   #1436
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Well its rumored (from the questionnaire that was leaked earlier last month) that the ecoboost engine is only a $500 upgrade from the V6 and it will have more hp and torque and better fuel economy all for $500 more is a good sell.
If this is true, then I don't see the V6 surviving if the EB proves to be a seller. It really doesn't hurt them to offer the EB and V6 together and let the market decide.
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Old 12-07-2013, 05:51 PM   #1437
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Originally Posted by subyski View Post
If this is true, then I don't see the V6 surviving if the EB proves to be a seller. It really doesn't hurt them to offer the EB and V6 together and let the market decide.


Maybe this is their plan, offer both, then axe the one that doesn't sell well. If it's only a 500 dollar difference, is more powerful, and offers better mpg then what's the point of the V6? 'Muricans?

The V6 is just a carryover anyways, right? So dumping it a year down the road isn't much of an R&D loss.
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Old 12-07-2013, 06:26 PM   #1438
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Originally Posted by FaastLegacy View Post


You mean the driveshafts in the V6s that broke after a few dumbass owners tuned them, removed the speed limiters and then proceeded to drive 120+ mph?

Yeah, if you want to drive stupid high speeds, do the smart thing and buy the GT with the better brakes, better suspension, higher rated tires and better driveshaft, not the bargain volume seller model.

Who's the target demographic for the V6 model anyway? Teenage girls and rental car companies?
Yes I mean the drive shaft in the 300 hp V6 cars that crumbled when driven over 120 mph. And are you calling Mustang owners who modified their cars dumb asses? With your logic they should buy the Boss Mustang instead. Who would buy the GT when a clearly superior Mustang is available: better engine, better suspension, better tires, better chassis...
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Old 12-07-2013, 07:03 PM   #1439
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Originally Posted by Snicker88 View Post
Yes I mean the drive shaft in the 300 hp V6 cars that crumbled when driven over 120 mph. And are you calling Mustang owners who modified their cars dumb asses? With your logic they should buy the Boss Mustang instead. Who would buy the GT when a clearly superior Mustang is available: better engine, better suspension, better tires, better chassis...
If he's not, I will. Not necessarily the ones who modified their cars, but the one's who complain about something breaking because of their modification. The speed governor was there for a reason, remove it and you don't get to bitch about the consequences.

The dynamic stability of a driveshaft is a higher order function of the rotational velocity. It's at least a squared term, maybe cubed, my memory is slightly failing. At any rate Ford using an inexpensive shaft and a speed governor on the V6 car is entirely sensible and in no way indicates poor quality.
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Old 12-07-2013, 07:47 PM   #1440
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If he's not, I will. Not necessarily the ones who modified their cars, but the one's who complain about something breaking because of their modification. The speed governor was there for a reason, remove it and you don't get to bitch about the consequences.

The dynamic stability of a driveshaft is a higher order function of the rotational velocity. It's at least a squared term, maybe cubed, my memory is slightly failing. At any rate Ford using an inexpensive shaft and a speed governor on the V6 car is entirely sensible and in no way indicates poor quality.
No one is modifying the drive shaft and caused it to fail. It is the low threshold that it failed. Go to Mustang forum and tell V6 owners to stop bitching and explain to them how Ford using cheap part is sensible.
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Old 12-07-2013, 07:50 PM   #1441
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No one is modifying the drive shaft and caused it to fail. It is the low threshold that it failed. Go to Mustang forum and tell V6 owners to stop bitching and explain to them how Ford using cheap part is sensible.


Do you even read? Nobody modified the driveshaft, they modified the speed limiter of the car which allowed the driveshaft to go beyond what it was specced for.
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Old 12-08-2013, 08:28 AM   #1442
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Originally Posted by dye.sti View Post
Well its rumored (from the questionnaire that was leaked earlier last month) that the ecoboost engine is only a $500 upgrade from the V6 and it will have more hp and torque and better fuel economy all for $500 more is a good sell.
Quote:
Originally Posted by neg_matnik View Post
The V6 engine achieves 30 mpg only because of the dreadful stock 2.73:1 rear end that basically kills acceleration.
It seems like Ford is going to use a higher ratio for the EB-powered Mustang which is going to make it significantly quicker than the V6-equipped Mustang while retaining decent fuel economy.
IMO, the EB engine will provide significantly more performance for the money than the V6 ever will.
It's not so much about trying to achieve V8 performance but it's more about trying to provide a performance alternative to the V6.
If the 4 cyl is only $500 more, then it will be the performance bargain of the decade! I suppose the V6 would be reserved for rental cars and teenage girls. Which is odd, because everything I've read indicates the V6 is still a good engine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Calamity Jesus View Post
...

OEM gauge packs are almost always an overpriced gimmick. This one looks no different. Many gauges in affordable cars are dummy gauges anyway. The water temp gauge in any new car has 3 positions.. cold, operating temp and overheat. When the operating temp is reached the gauge slowly creeps up from cold to the middle of the gauge and doesn't move unless an overheat occurs.

Hell, the oil pressure gauge in the NB miata was really just tied to the idiot light.. if the oil pressure light wasn't lit it showed pressure in the middle of the range. If there oil pressure light was on, it showed zero pressure on the gauge. Those were the only two modes.

It's all a bunch of cost savings. Real gauges cost money to build to a proper calibration. Dummy gauges are cheap and can swing needles around on startup to look cool and get a test driving buyer that much closer to signing for some financing.
I tracked coolant temp on startup with my AP, and the OEM coolant guage actually does move in relation to temperature. I've never had my car overheat, so I don't know what it would do over 200 degrees, but on warmup it's fairly accurate.
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Old 12-08-2013, 09:55 AM   #1443
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Originally Posted by C4RBON_F1BER View Post

If the 4 cyl is only $500 more, then it will be the performance bargain of the decade! .
? All signs are that it will perform similarly to the v6...

So why is it such a great "performance buy"?
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Old 12-08-2013, 10:26 AM   #1444
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Yes I mean the drive shaft in the 300 hp V6 cars that crumbled when driven over 120 mph. And are you calling Mustang owners who modified their cars dumb asses? With your logic they should buy the Boss Mustang instead. Who would buy the GT when a clearly superior Mustang is available: better engine, better suspension, better tires, better chassis...
Yes, I am. They modified their cars to go beyond the operating range that Ford designated for them and then they broke it. That governor was on there for a reason and well, they found out why. I'm still not sure why that's remotely Ford's fault.

If the manufacturer of a product tells you not to do something with the product, and you go and do it anyway and break it - how is that the manufacturer's fault?

Quote:
Go to Mustang forum and tell V6 owners to stop bitching and explain to them how Ford using cheap part is sensible.
Oh believe me, I did.

The V6 is the bargain basement, hairdresser's model. It doesn't make the least bit of sense to overbuild a car for the .001% of your customer base that might actually need it and raise the price for everyone in the process.

Again, use the proper tool for the job. If you want to do ridiculous speeds, step up to the GT. The V6, while making 300 hp and still being quick, was never meant to be the high performance model. That's why it had a 118 mph governor, cheap tires, cheap brakes, etc.

In my opinion, regardless of the driveshaft, taking the V6 up to those speeds is just reckless anyway, given all the other mechanical compromises that I just outlined.
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Old 12-08-2013, 10:41 AM   #1445
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Originally Posted by Calamity Jesus View Post
Have you seen the boost gauge in the Focus ST? It's incredibly inaccurate.. it's basically just a needle to flop around under throttle. The guy in the following video has an aftermarket gauge fitted below the OEM gauge (the one in the middle).

Focus ST Stack ST3112 Boost Gauge Test - YouTube
While some OEM gauges are more usable than others, I don't understand what the problem is in the video above. The gauge in the middle of the 3 above is the OEM gauge, right? And the gauge below is the aftermarket. When the engine goes into boost, they both move. The aftermarket one is hooked into the manifold and the OEM one must be getting a CAN signal from the stock ECU. There might be a delay or buffer to it so that customers don't see it as too "busy" and distracting. And it might be indicating compressor outlet pressure instead of manifold pressure, which would make the number higher.

Quote:
Hell, the oil pressure gauge in the NB miata was really just tied to the idiot light.. if the oil pressure light wasn't lit it showed pressure in the middle of the range. If there oil pressure light was on, it showed zero pressure on the gauge. Those were the only two modes.

It's all a bunch of cost savings. Real gauges cost money to build to a proper calibration. Dummy gauges are cheap and can swing needles around on startup to look cool and get a test driving buyer that much closer to signing for some financing.
That's a fair point on oil pressure gauges in general and the Miatas in particular. But coolant temperature gauges: in an era of ECU controlled thermostats/water pumps (take all the turbo BMWs), don't you think most drivers would get a little weirded out when their gauge indicated that the car is intentionally running hotter for fuel economy sometimes?

The gauge calibration isn't an issue. The gauges run off CAN signals, and the ECU gets an accurate signal or [these days] models a relatively accurate signal on a stock car.
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Old 12-08-2013, 11:46 AM   #1446
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Originally Posted by SoapBox View Post
? All signs are that it will perform similarly to the v6...

So why is it such a great "performance buy"?
Lighter, flatter torque curve, better efficiency, and more tuning potential for $500 seems like a good deal to me!
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Old 12-08-2013, 03:59 PM   #1447
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Lighter, flatter torque curve, better efficiency, and more tuning potential for $500 seems like a good deal to me!
Bit of a difference between a "good deal" and the "performance bargain of the decade", when you know absolutely nothing about its performance.
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Old 12-08-2013, 04:10 PM   #1448
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Bit of a difference between a "good deal" and the "performance bargain of the decade", when you know absolutely nothing about its performance.
I'm not calling it the performance bargain of the decade yet. But if the I4 axle ratio is higher than the V6, its lighter, more powerful and flatter torque curve, as well as better mpg, I would say thats pretty darn good for $500.

The current gen V6 mustang costs $23k, if the turbo 4 is $24k, then yeah, I'd say its the best value performance vehicle on the market.
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Old 12-08-2013, 04:41 PM   #1449
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If the EB 4 Mustang comes in at around the $24k mark, sign me up in a few years. But, I know that won't happen. Car and pricing will be more upmarket.
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Old 12-08-2013, 08:04 PM   #1450
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If the EB 4 Mustang comes in at around the $24k mark, sign me up in a few years. But, I know that won't happen. Car and pricing will be more upmarket.
This is where the marketing and packaging of it will make or break the EB model. They need to develop a compelling reason for customers to want to purchase the EB over the vanilla V6. Sticking it in a similar shell as the V6 and charging a premium for it like they do with all their EB models just isn't going to work here. Personally, I hope they make a handling/track oriented model out of it and market it as such. Sort of a modern day SVO but maybe call it the Mustang ST to stay congruent with the rest of their line up. I'm not as confident if they try to make some sort of upscale, luxury version of the Mustang with it. Ford has been doing a lot of things right lately, hopefully that carries over here.

Then again, they may not give two craps less, because the EB was intended for the European market. Anything sold in the USDM is icing on the cake as the engineering and design is already a sunk cost.

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