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Old 03-03-2021, 01:05 PM   #101
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and the fact that a 3-Row SUV satisfies the same seating function as a Minivan, with more panache.

Panache? I disagree with you there but I know the mainstreamers do not. There is not any kind of panache with the Ascent nor any CUV out there. Minivan is way more functional and nobody is taking either off road for the rock climbing. It's laughable that a father or mother would be so insecure "I will not be seen driving a minivan" but then they think a CUV is cool looking? Hey maybe they'll make a 4 row CUV next instead of a van. Does anyone lean back and look at how ridiculous our entire car market is today, it's hilarious. A bunch of insecure people worried about what people think of their vehicle, 99% of them being absolute strangers. So insecure.
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Old 03-03-2021, 01:21 PM   #102
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I have no opinion about your point, but all cars are getting taller (and uglier) in the front end regardless of ground clearance or segment. Take a look at the new Levorg front end -- it's SUV tall.
Part of this is the new (varying) pedestrian safety standards that have been implemented all over the world. This puts some constraints on design.
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Old 03-03-2021, 01:22 PM   #103
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It's a sedan, with sedan seating position, sedan door sills, sedan everything.
But the scale and proportions went up the same. Rolling stock and fenders increased. Ride height increased. Front surface area increased. Footprint increased. The Outback shares the Legacy seating position, door sills, roof line, windows, windshield, etc etc etc same as before.

The Outback now is no less a wagon than the BL Outback was. It's easy to tell the difference between an Outback and an Ascent. Or an Outback and a Forester. Unpainted cladding and large roof rails doesn't take away the wagon profile and connection to the Legacy sedan IMO. Especially when dealerships around me are lifting Legacy sedans and putting All Terrains on them.
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Old 03-03-2021, 01:37 PM   #104
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Part of this is the new (varying) pedestrian safety standards that have been implemented all over the world. This puts some constraints on design.
Definitely. It was first required in the EU and the euro lux brands were the first to implement the "fix". It's one reason why modern MB and BWM designs are getting uglier.
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Old 03-03-2021, 01:38 PM   #105
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But the scale and proportions went up the same. Rolling stock and fenders increased. Ride height increased. Front surface area increased. Footprint increased. The Outback shares the Legacy seating position, door sills, roof line, windows, windshield, etc etc etc same as before.

The Outback now is no less a wagon than the BL Outback was. It's easy to tell the difference between an Outback and an Ascent. Or an Outback and a Forester. Unpainted cladding and large roof rails doesn't take away the wagon profile and connection to the Legacy sedan IMO. Especially when dealerships around me are lifting Legacy sedans and putting All Terrains on them.
The Outback and Legacy should have different seating positions, but I haven't sat in either in awhile. I could be wrong, but that's what a lot of other manufacturers do for Crossovers.

The Legacy is also clearly a sedan, not an SUV. Please don't ask then was an Outback 3.0R (lifted sedan body) an SUV...it wasn't. It was a Sport Utility Sedan (ah, the really old days).

The Forester and Impreza are the same inside, yet I believe the center console is set higher up w/ deeper storage to mimic the higher position of the Forester seats.

Last edited by Snow Drift; 03-03-2021 at 01:45 PM.
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Old 03-03-2021, 01:46 PM   #106
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Are you saying the greenhouse is different between the Legacy and the Outback? The Outback has always been a Legacy wagon with a raised suspension.
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Old 03-03-2021, 01:47 PM   #107
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The Forester and Impreza are the same inside, yet I believe the center console is set higher up w/ deeper storage to mimic the higher position of the Forester seats.
The Forester is not a lifted Impreza, that's the Crosstrek. It's seating position is the same.
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Old 03-03-2021, 01:55 PM   #108
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Are you saying the greenhouse is different between the Legacy and the Outback? The Outback has always been a Legacy wagon with a raised suspension.
When SUV/CUV are made from existing sedans they usually change mounting height of the drivers seat to raise it, and then the center consoles tend to have a deeper storage capacity since it is higher off the floor.

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The Forester is not a lifted Impreza, that's the Crosstrek. It's seating position is the same.
The Forester is a sibling of the Impreza, it has always been. It shares the same interior, same wheelbase, and many internal components.

The Crosstrek has a shorter wheel base than the Impreza, but yes it's based on the Impreza hatch, but with different bumpers and other things to make it a Crossover.

Last edited by Snow Drift; 03-03-2021 at 02:07 PM.
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Old 03-03-2021, 02:11 PM   #109
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When SUV/CUV are made from existing sedans they usually change mounting height of the drivers seat to raise it, and then the center consoles tend to have a deeper storage capacity since it is higher off the floor.
AFAIK they did not do this starting with the BM/BR. Legacy and Outback development and production utilizes shared costs. Same formula as always. If you raise the seating position, the roof needs to be higher. So does the windshield. So do the side windows. And pillar heights.

Which is the Legacy and which is the Outback?



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Old 03-03-2021, 02:23 PM   #110
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The 2006 Legacy Wagon and old Outbacks were Legacy sedans with a D-Pillar. They were wagons.

The 2010+ Outback moved up into the SUV/CUV world.

Here is 2009 vs 2010 Outback. Both have 8.x" of ground clearance, yet clearly there are differences in the height of the front end, overall and seating position (see steering wheel height). These are SUV proportions vs. a wagon, which is just a sedan w/ a D-pillar.

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So would the Legacy be considered an SUV too?

This


Quote:
Originally Posted by Snow Drift View Post
The Outback and Legacy should have different seating positions, but I haven't sat in either in awhile. I could be wrong, but that's what a lot of other manufacturers do for Crossovers.

The Legacy is also clearly a sedan, not an SUV. Please don't ask then was an Outback 3.0R (lifted sedan body) an SUV...it wasn't. It was a Sport Utility Sedan (ah, the really old days).

The Forester and Impreza are the same inside, yet I believe the center console is set higher up w/ deeper storage to mimic the higher position of the Forester seats.
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Originally Posted by Snow Drift View Post
When SUV/CUV are made from existing sedans they usually change mounting height of the drivers seat to raise it, and then the center consoles tend to have a deeper storage capacity since it is higher off the floor.


The Forester is a sibling of the Impreza, it has always been. It shares the same interior, same wheelbase, and many internal components.

The Crosstrek has a shorter wheel base than the Impreza, but yes it's based on the Impreza hatch, but with different bumpers and other things to make it a Crossover.



All of these "uncertain" statements. So, you are not sure and are just spewing things not "knowing"? The interiors of the Outback and Legacy are the same. No different seating position(within the cabin).



The Crosstrek has a shorter wheelbase because of whatever they had to do to the suspension when lifting the Impreza. The 1st gen Crosstrek was obviously an Impreza chassis with significant reinforcements/enhancements to that chassis for more off pavement use. I haven't heard any specifics(if any) to the differences now since they are both on the SGP.



So, again, what is the Legacy wagon from 2010 on(that we didn't get? I have a buddy living in Japan now with a LGT tS wagon.
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Old 03-03-2021, 02:29 PM   #111
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The Forester is a sibling of the Impreza, it has always been. It shares the same interior, same wheelbase, and many internal components.

The Crosstrek has a shorter wheel base than the Impreza, but yes it's based on the Impreza hatch, but with different bumpers and other things to make it a Crossover.
The Forester is a sibling but less so since the SH. A lot of the interior components are the same but the dash sits higher, has a taller greenhouse, thus the higher seating position. It is a true CUV.

Yes, but the Crosstrek is to the Impreza as the Outback is to the Legacy. The Outback, IMO, has always been a CUV and kinda one of the starters of the segment. The Crosstrek is only 0.2" shorter most likely due to geometry changes from lifting.
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Old 03-03-2021, 02:49 PM   #112
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This









All of these "uncertain" statements. So, you are not sure and are just spewing things not "knowing"? The interiors of the Outback and Legacy are the same. No different seating position(within the cabin).



The Crosstrek has a shorter wheelbase because of whatever they had to do to the suspension when lifting the Impreza. The 1st gen Crosstrek was obviously an Impreza chassis with significant reinforcements/enhancements to that chassis for more off pavement use. I haven't heard any specifics(if any) to the differences now since they are both on the SGP.



So, again, what is the Legacy wagon from 2010 on(that we didn't get? I have a buddy living in Japan now with a LGT tS wagon.
The headroom isn't identical. I'm not saying it's Earth shattering, but it's different.

2021 Outback Headroom = 40.1 / 39.1" (w/ MR: 37.7"/39.1")
2021 Legacy Headroom = 39.4 / 37.3" (w/ MR: 37.3" /37.2")
media.subaru.com

Quote:
Originally Posted by subyski View Post
The Forester is a sibling but less so since the SH. A lot of the interior components are the same but the dash sits higher, has a taller greenhouse, thus the higher seating position. It is a true CUV.

Yes, but the Crosstrek is to the Impreza as the Outback is to the Legacy. The Outback, IMO, has always been a CUV and kinda one of the starters of the segment. The Crosstrek is only 0.2" shorter most likely due to geometry changes from lifting.
I year you. I feel like Forester and Outback are both CUV. Crosstrek is murky, but I'd still throw it in the SUV/CUV category vs pure Hatchback.
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Old 03-03-2021, 02:57 PM   #113
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AFAIK they did not do this starting with the BM/BR. Legacy and Outback development and production utilizes shared costs. Same formula as always. If you raise the seating position, the roof needs to be higher. So does the windshield. So do the side windows. And pillar heights.

Which is the Legacy and which is the Outback?



Well, the image file name gives it away, but obviously the cupholders are a major selling point of SUV/CUVs...
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Old 03-03-2021, 03:04 PM   #114
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AFAIK they did not do this starting with the BM/BR. Legacy and Outback development and production utilizes shared costs. Same formula as always. If you raise the seating position, the roof needs to be higher. So does the windshield. So do the side windows. And pillar heights.

Which is the Legacy and which is the Outback?





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Originally Posted by Snow Drift View Post
Well, the image file name gives it away, but obviously the cupholders are a major selling point of SUV/CUVs...
The dead giveaway is the scene out the windshield, one is in front of an office building, one is in the wilderness. Marketing.
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Old 03-03-2021, 03:09 PM   #115
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The headroom discrepancy between the Outback and Legacy was even greater in the BL/BP generation.
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Old 03-03-2021, 03:11 PM   #116
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The headroom discrepancy between the Outback and Legacy was even greater in the BL/BP generation.
Well then, I dunno. To me it's an SUV/CUV, but if you guys want it to be a lifted station wagon, so be it.
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Old 03-03-2021, 03:36 PM   #117
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We don't want it to be, it is. Subaru is cheap. They ain't reinventing something because of a half inch. Seats are height adjustable.

The ugly they put on it to make it something else and the suspension lift can be undone and its a Legacy wagon. Don't make me prove it to you, because I will. I've done it before I'll do it again.
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Old 03-03-2021, 03:39 PM   #118
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We don't want it to be, it is. Subaru is cheap. They ain't reinventing something because of a half inch. Seats are height adjustable.

The ugly they put on it to make it something else and the suspension lift can be undone and its a Legacy wagon. Don't make me prove it to you, because I will. I've done it before I'll do it again.
Hahah.

I guess this is how they want it considered:

https://www.digitaltrends.com/cars/s...wrx-hatchback/

Subaru's chief Designer Mamoru Ishii referring to "Crossover."

" 'It's not just a simple addition. It's more like a crossover of two different design thoughts,' explained Ishii. In this case, the term crossover doesn't refer to the body style taking over the automotive world. To Subaru, it also means thinking well outside of the box and combining the best attributes from different segments to create a unique type of car. The Outback, for example, has turned into an SUV-wagon cross over the past two decades."
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Old 03-03-2021, 03:42 PM   #119
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The headroom isn't identical. I'm not saying it's Earth shattering, but it's different.

2021 Outback Headroom = 40.1 / 39.1" (w/ MR: 37.7"/39.1")
2021 Legacy Headroom = 39.4 / 37.3" (w/ MR: 37.3" /37.2")
media.subaru.com


I year you. I feel like Forester and Outback are both CUV. Crosstrek is murky, but I'd still throw it in the SUV/CUV category vs pure Hatchback.

Of course there will be a small difference as a sedan's roof isn't the same as a wagon's. Shoot. They raised the roof line on the original Legacy wagon and not the sedan and then the Legacy Outback AND Legacy wagon again in the 2nd gen; but, not the sedan. Those were still wagons, right? They certainly have tried to design looks to depart from a "traditional" wagon look; but, it's just a mask.
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Old 03-03-2021, 03:48 PM   #120
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Hahah.

I guess this is how they want it considered:

https://www.digitaltrends.com/cars/s...wrx-hatchback/

Subaru's chief Designer Mamoru Ishii referring to "Crossover."

" 'It's not just a simple addition. It's more like a crossover of two different design thoughts,' explained Ishii. In this case, the term crossover doesn't refer to the body style taking over the automotive world. To Subaru, it also means thinking well outside of the box and combining the best attributes from different segments to create a unique type of car. The Outback, for example, has turned into an SUV-wagon cross over the past two decades."
That's what they can say. I undid Foresters and Outbacks to my liking. It's kind of what I've done for 22 years.
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Old 03-03-2021, 03:50 PM   #121
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Hahah.

I guess this is how they want it considered:

https://www.digitaltrends.com/cars/s...wrx-hatchback/

Subaru's chief Designer Mamoru Ishii referring to "Crossover."

" 'It's not just a simple addition. It's more like a crossover of two different design thoughts,' explained Ishii. In this case, the term crossover doesn't refer to the body style taking over the automotive world. To Subaru, it also means thinking well outside of the box and combining the best attributes from different segments to create a unique type of car. The Outback, for example, has turned into an SUV-wagon cross over the past two decades."



There ya go.


I actually was going to mention this in the post I just put up; but, changed my mind. With you putting this up, I'll express my thoughts.



What you just posted goes back to the "beginning". You already mentioned the SUS. Before that Subaru coined "Sport Utility Wagon". This quote you put up seems to keep with that idea.
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Old 03-03-2021, 03:51 PM   #122
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That settles it. The Outback is a SUV-Wagon Crossover.

So when is Subaru going to build a Four door coupe sedan SUV Crossover?
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Old 03-03-2021, 03:55 PM   #123
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Shooting sedan brakeover utility cone killer.
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Old 03-03-2021, 04:10 PM   #124
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There ya go.

I actually was going to mention this in the post I just put up; but, changed my mind. With you putting this up, I'll express my thoughts.

What you just posted goes back to the "beginning". You already mentioned the SUS. Before that Subaru coined "Sport Utility Wagon". This quote you put up seems to keep with that idea.
Agreed.
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Old 03-08-2021, 02:31 PM   #125
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