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Old 08-10-2016, 10:09 PM   #1
dan0492
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Default 95 impreza L to 05 sti swap not starting HELP!

Hi to all,

I am having trouble starting my 05 sti engine after my swap. I have no spark, and i have checked a lot of things already.

GO TO POST 21, IT HAS:

--ALL MEASUREMENTS AND DATA
--
Shorter and more complete list of what has been checked
--Current List of sourced Parts and previous owners setup

POST 25 HAS ATTEMPT TO START LOGS!

***POSSIBLE PROBLEM FOUND POST 30***

FIX FOUND POST #40. SECURITY ISSUES/MY MISTAKE WITH 04 STI ECU SWAP ON 05 STI HARNESS

BACKGROUND:

95 shell was bought from John Stuart from Buffalo NY with 05 sti wiring harness already swapped over to run with the 95 chassis headlights, tails etc...
There are a lot of dead end wires under the dash im assuming from radio/hvac controls because i dont think he had them in the car. Also a lot of leftover plugs not used. He had a 2011 wrx motor working in the car before it blew.

He had a IAT sensor installed so he took the 2 wires from the MAF but i reverted back to stock. I am getting log data from the MAF and will throw a code if i attempt to start with it unplugged.

05 sti engine was bought from Peter Donato at PMP auto as a drop in motor. Longblock, wiring harness, intake manifold, turbo etc... rebuilt by a subaru dealer (so im told) with a new shortblock and rebuilt heads (7K miles) and has 160 and 165 compression difference (so im told) and less than 5% leakdown (apparently their gauge cant read that low???) Engine was in a running car that was totaled for cosmetic damage.

WHAT I HAVE CHECKED:

ALL fuses and relays, swapped ignition relay with another one in the set of black relays.
Cam and Crank sensors are physically good ... NO damage
Cam and Crank have power and continuity.
Grounds are good...i did a grounding mod with intake manifold, both sides of the heads, and throttle body all grounded with separate wires to the (-) terminal. ( i have tried starting with this removed, NO CHANGE)
There is power at the plugs going into the coil packs.
Pulled a code for tgvs from the ecu so i assume thats ok


WHAT I HAVENT DONE
I didnt double check timing before install but a new timing belt was installed before i got the motor.
I havent checked oil pressure for a bad oil sending unit

WHAT DOES WORK:

Fuel pump primes when set to ON position
Full tank of gas was sitting for over a year and i drained and replaced that after some no starts.
Battery is charged after cranking drains it.

Sorry for the long text im just trying to be thorough. I can only work on it on the weekends so i can test things friday-sunday.

ANY help would be greatly appreciated.

My guess at this point is a bad/broken wire in the merged harness somewhere.
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Last edited by dan0492; 09-19-2017 at 09:38 PM.
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Old 08-11-2016, 12:43 AM   #2
PHATsuby
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so it turns over but doesn't start?

Can you smell fuel at all?

Does it start if you unplug the MAF?

Ben
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Old 08-11-2016, 06:07 PM   #3
dan0492
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Yes it turns over ... it has never been started in this car yet. I smell fuel near the engine bay after cranking but the spark plugs come out dry as far as i can tell. I didnt unplug the MAF but if i have no spark or fuel then i assume that wont help. I cant 100% confirm im not getting injector pulse. i have voltage at the plug but i dont have a noid light setup.

Thanks a lot for your help. I can only work on it on the weekends so i will post then any progress
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Old 08-14-2016, 09:49 AM   #4
dan0492
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Update: I had some subaru mechanics that have diagnostic tools to see whats up.
-A cam gear was off a tooth so they re-did timing.
-They had a more accurate ohm tester then me so they rechecked cam and crank position sensors and they said that both cam sensors were out of spec ... i could only get one yesterday so after replacing the pass side sensor the car still wont start.
-we also confirmed that no teeth are bent or broken on the tone ring (metal tooth thing that the cps picks up)
-i also tried un-pugging the MAF but as i assumed it didnt help

Last edited by dan0492; 08-14-2016 at 09:59 AM.
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Old 08-14-2016, 11:24 PM   #5
PHATsuby
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a 2011 motor would be a canbus system I believe, what ecu are you using? also the STi if I recall may use a diff number of cam teeth, like 3 vs 2 but I could be mis-remembering. either way, look at the FSM and compare the 2005 STi crank and cam trigger wheels vs. the 2011 wrx. Crank is likely the same, but look at cam. If you're using a 2011 wrx ecu I would guess it is something like this as your problem.

Ben
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Old 08-17-2016, 09:48 AM   #6
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Sorry if the background is confusing its a lot to read.
-I have a 2005 ej257 engine
-2005 merged wiring harness
-2005 ecu, key, immobilizer
-2005 tranny

pretty much everything on the car is 2005 so i dont think thats the problem
thanks for the reply
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Old 07-21-2017, 11:50 PM   #7
dan0492
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Major bump on this.

I was away in germany for 9 months and now im back to chase the electrical ghosts once again.

Updates: Still have a crank no start situation.

-As stated before i am assuming compression is good (timing also double checked by subie mechanics)
- I assume fuel pressure/injectors are firing because plugs smell of gas when pulled.
- I drained as much gas as i could before i left. i filled a fresh 5 gallons and drained some in the lines by priming the car before attempting starts.
-battery is good, i swapped it into another car and it started 1st time.

Next tests are to check for signals to coilpacks with voltmeter, i should get between 2-4 volts from signal wires when cranking. If i do receive signals then i can assume crank and cam sensors are good because that is what sends the signals for ignition timing to the ECU.

If i receive no signal i can check crank/cam sensors but both cam sensors are new and the crank sensor ohms good.

I am also suspecting the immobilizer to cut spark but - i have read with mixed results that the car should start but die shortly after if the car is immobilized. i have also heard that it cuts fuel and spark or wont start all together but my fuel pump primes every time and the car cranks.

I will also check power to ECU and 5 volt reference but i assume ECU is ok because i pull codes and the car cranks fine.

Also entertaining some dumb ideas that are more unlikely but still possible.
-ECU is not on stock map (i was told it was)
-Spark plugs are not correct for the sti (Double checked but i never trust anyone from autozone)
- the double checked timing belt is still not correct
-something is not grounded but should be

Any help would be appreciated!
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Old 07-24-2017, 10:28 PM   #8
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Update: I have checked the ignition signals by inserting a needle into the middle plug of the coil pack harness. I used my voltmeter on the 1.5V setting so i can measure a little more accurately. While cranking i got about .64 volts off every signal wire on the coil pack harness.

Not sure if my test was correct or if .64V signal is correct for a signal but it did change voltage while cranking.

If the coils are receiving the signals then i can assume my crank and cam sensors are working and sending the signals to the ECU.

I have 12V on all the power wires from the coil pack harness.

Grounds on the coil pack harness all have continuity.

I also checked the ECU power supply (control unit power supply) B135 connector, terminal 5&6 by again inserting a needle into the back of the plug. I got 12.2V on both terminals.

The sensor power supply B136 terminal 16 is also good with 5.04V

The Ground for the ignition system, and the power supply were also in spec. B135 terminal 12 (ignition) terminal 4&1 (power supply) all came in at 0.5 Ohms

I also checked continuity with the crankshaft position sensor (+) and (-) and also the shield B135 terminal 10 (+) terminal 22 (-) and terminal 31 (shield) all came out at 0.4 Ohms

I am unsure of why my spark plugs are still not firing.
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Old 07-25-2017, 03:12 PM   #9
KalebS
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I'm sorry to hear you're having trouble. I've bought some parts off of John and have bounced many things off of him during my build/swap. He has always seemed very knowledgeable and helpful to me. I hope it's something silly causing your no start issue. Good luck with it!
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Old 07-25-2017, 07:35 PM   #10
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Yea John is a good guy, I had to get a part off of him to finish my power steering pump assembly and he sent it out right away. It is probly something stupid, this is my first swap/build and it is a huge learning curve. Everything mechanical isnt too difficult but wiring is always the killer.
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Old 07-27-2017, 12:39 AM   #11
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if you're getting all the correct signals then i would start to suspect compression or timing... i also am doing my first swap (02 wrx into 98 legacy) and had the same type of symptom as you but it ended up being a bad wire on the fuel tank pressure sensor... which was my fault
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Old 07-27-2017, 05:19 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dan0492 View Post
Yea John is a good guy, I had to get a part off of him to finish my power steering pump assembly and he sent it out right away. It is probly something stupid, this is my first swap/build and it is a huge learning curve. Everything mechanical isnt too difficult but wiring is always the killer.
I swapped the whole harness from my donor car into the new car! No merged stuff on my end. Still working on it. I hope you figure yours out soon!
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Old 07-27-2017, 10:55 PM   #13
dan0492
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aberger19707 - I would suspect those two ... especially timing, but it was checked twice. Compression i was told was good when i bought the motor but doesnt effect my no spark condition. I was also told it was a running motor before i bought it and since i didnt touch anything on it i have to assume at this point nothing is wrong. For example if a cam gear was installed 180 degrees upside down then it would explain this.

I really hope the timing wasnt messed up by two different mechanics. Maybe i should check it a third time haha.

KalebS - yes i really hope so too!
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Old 07-28-2017, 12:37 AM   #14
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Cam gears are keyed, they can't be upside down. Only way it could be motor related is if you're off on the crank position. It's a 4 stroke, you would have to be super far off so the valves are opening for exhaust or intake when the ECU (reading crank pos) thinks it's a compression stroke. Easy way to find out is with a compression test.

No spark, with all the things you've checked, I'd put money on the ECU being screwed. Maybe it got dropped or wet, or it's immobilized. Throw another ECU in there, if you can't, try and get an Access Port and log an attempt to start, send the log to a tuner who knows how to read it. They may be able to tell you why the ECU is refusing to spark.

Does it sound OK? Compare it to another 2.5 turbo subaru cranking with throttle held down to see if it sounds the same.

It could very well be something grounding out that shouldn't be, make sure none of the wires under the dash are grounding or touching each other. Do you have all the things plugged in, like gauge cluster, etc? Could your "upgraded" grounding setup be screwing something up?

All I can do is try and point you to what you may have missed. We did a swap with a 2002 bugeye wrx harness into a 2002 forester, started first try. But we adapted the car to the harness, not the harness to the car. Only thing that doesn't work are the windows, locks work fine but none of the windows do. We've spent hours working on it, even used wrx door harnesses. Nothing.
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Old 07-29-2017, 09:34 AM   #15
dan0492
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Master467, thanks a lot for the insight this is all very useful.
I only said cam gear upside down because i had read a forum where someone had installed it wrong with it not on the keyway. I know its unlikely but i wanted to think of all the possibilities.

I really should do a compression or leakdown again but i was told its good and i can hear/feel the differance when a plug is out when its cranking (that doesnt at all mean compression is good im just making an educated guess)

Pretty sure ECU is good. it is throwing codes, it will throw a new code when i unplug the MAF for example. Fuel pump primes, spark plugs come out wet so i can assume injectors are firing (correct? idk?) I havent dropped it and its been inside while i was away. Checked the motherboard for any physical burns/damage. I also unplug the battery before it take any plugs out of it.
- Is it possible that the ECU is still bad if the car cranks and i get codes?

I havent tried to start with the throttle down. that is for clearing a flooded engine and would open the exhaust valves correct? or intake too idk. But the ECU controls that as well so that could help confirm a good ECU. Throttle body also makes the electrical whining sound when the key is in the on position.

Grounds are a big possibility. The harness was adapted to the car. So its a complete 05 sti harness just spliced to make the lights, door locks work etc... Other than that almost everything is 05 sti, Cluster, fuel pump, gas tank, dash, fuse boxes relays... My Upgraded grounding kit is just thicker cable going to important areas directly to the stock fender wall location then to the (-) terminal. So throttle body, both sides of the heads, alternator mount. I have tried it disconnected but no change. Maybe i can try it again without it.

There are a ton of wires loose, with open ends under the dash because the previous owner raced the car and took out things like the radio, clock, airbag wiring, but he also had a running car with everything how it was.

The accessport log idea is very good i didnt know it was able to log an attempt to start. Do i have to have the accessport married to the car to do so?

I have heard nightmares about the window systems on these cars. if one window goes bad they all go bad. but good luck to you, i feel your pain with the electrical problems.

Thanks a lot for posting you have been a great help Sir!
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Old 07-31-2017, 08:24 PM   #16
Master467
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dan0492 View Post
I havent tried to start with the throttle down. that is for clearing a flooded engine and would open the exhaust valves correct? or intake too idk. But the ECU controls that as well so that could help confirm a good ECU. Throttle body also makes the electrical whining sound when the key is in the on position.
It's all mechanical valvetrain, when the engine turns over it will turn the cams and open both intake and exhaust. It's for priming the engine, it will run oil pump and injectors and give it air, just no spark.

The ECU could have one damaged pin and not be sending spark.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dan0492 View Post
The accessport log idea is very good i didnt know it was able to log an attempt to start. Do i have to have the accessport married to the car to do so?
Maybe? You at least need an account or whatever to send the log to I think? I've never actually bought one, they have all just come with cars I've had. Pretty sure we logged some stuff on my buddy's v3 that's married to another car. Never checked the logs though.

Have you confirmed that the turbo isn't blown? Or that there isn't a clog in your intake? They could have shoved a rag in it for shipping. Likewise they could have shoved a rag in the turbo. I just ran a 2 liter WRX engine with no tmic on it last night, sounded ****ty but it actually started with no way to meter air. Could probably try disconnecting it from the throttle body first to check. That's the only thing I can think of.
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Old 07-31-2017, 09:21 PM   #17
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Yea kinda forgot everything is mechanically tied together haha. I had always thought the WOT while cranking was for clearing flooding but you learn something new everyday.

Yes the ECU could have something damaged im trying to get through checking everything.

My friend just got his car tuned and i was talking to the tuner who said the accessport doesnt need to be married and i can send him an attempt to start. I just need to find time to get an accessport from a friend.

The turbo shouldnt be blown, i checked the motor when i picked it up and there was no shaft play. thats all i could really check while there but there could be something else wrong idk. Since the engine wasnt shipped i put the intake on myself and there isnt anything blocking it.

I will keep working on it but i dont have time everyday unfortunately. Im hoping that if i can get a log to the tuner he can point me in the right direction. Thanks again for the advice.
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Old 07-31-2017, 11:24 PM   #18
Master467
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dan0492 View Post
Thanks again for the advice.
No problem. Sub'd to the thread, I want to know if WHEN you get her running.
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Old 08-01-2017, 01:44 AM   #19
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I would be concerned it was a wiring issue. I hate wiring so if it was me I would send the wiring harness to iWire and have him look it over for problems. My buddy bought a merged harness for a GC to WRX swap and had iWire look it over. It turns out the harness was garbage.
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Old 08-03-2017, 11:08 PM   #20
dan0492
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Master467- It is definitely a WHEN situation i will not accept defeat under any circumstances haha.

monkeyposeur - I would definitely send the harness out if i had about 5-700$ to spare. Im trying to avoid that until the end ... as a last resort. i still have some things to go through though. Right now im going through the AVCS wiring because i slightly remember the previous owner saying something about a that system needing a wire. not sure.

Luckily i also have a friend bringing his accessport over on saturday so i can log an attempt to start. Then i can send the log to Tuner Alliance, my friend just had his wrx protuned and the tuner said he would look at it for me.
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Old 08-03-2017, 11:36 PM   #21
dan0492
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THIS IS FOR A NO SPARK CONDITON

Common No Start Reasons Already Checked

- Car has 5 gallons of gas in tank
- Battery is charged
- Car cranks every time
- Fuel pump primes every time
- Car has 160-165 Compression difference (so i was told), Leak-down is Under 5% (so i was told)
- Crank pulley gear (tone ring i believe is correct) has no bent/broken teeth
- Timing was checked twice, first from mechanic installing new timing belt before i bought the motor, second by TWO subaru techs who found it was off a tooth and re-did the timing.
- AVCS/Crank sensors have no physical damage
- Coil packs have no physical damage

Diagnostic Trouble Codes
- P2016 - TGV's - Intake Manifold Runner Position Sensor/Switch Circuit Low Bank 1

Possibilities for no spark/start condition
- Timing could still be off
- Grounds
- Broken/pinched wire in harness
- ECU/Key/Immobilizer dont match (bought everything together so it should be good) - Car cranks
- ECU is bricked/fried (no physical damage on motherboard) - i Can pull codes and car cranks
- ECU is not on stock map (i was told it was)
- Bad oil pressure sending unit (Have not checked this at all)
- Cracked oil pickup tube (i have heard that this is common on our cars)


PREVIOUS OWNERS SETUP

VERY long journal of what John had done to the car prior to me buying the shell if anyone is interested. -- http://www.buffaloscooby.com/showthr...-2014-or-bust!

-95 Impreza L with 2011 WRX motor swap
-IAT sensor modification (I returned this back to MAF setup)
- Complete 95 L wiring harness merge with 05 STI wiring Harness
- 2011 WRX transmission (Neutral position switch / DCCD connector did not fit my 05 sti tranny, I added individual connectors to make it work)

ENGINE
- 05 STI drop in engine - Longblock, wiring harness, intake manifold, turbo etc...
- rebuilt by a subaru dealer (so im told)
- new shortblock and rebuilt heads (7K miles)
- has 160 and 165 compression difference (so im told) and less than 5% leakdown
- Engine was in a running car that was totaled for cosmetic damage. (so im told)

Not super experienced with checking for a good engine, i know compression is most important. I checked for shaft-play in the turbo, which was good, had no movement (side to side or in and out) Spark plugs were out and i saw the tops of the cylinders, looked brand new, shiny, block looked new, no rust, head gaskets looked new, no cracks.

OTHER IMPORTANT ITEMS
- 05 STI ECU, Immobilizer, Key, Body Integrated Unit, and Ignition lock cylinder (all bought together)
- 05 STI Transmission
- 05 STI fuel tank - Warlboro 255 pump
- 05 STI pedal assembly (drive by wire)
- almost everything i got just happened to be 05 STI.

Just wanted to get a quick list so far of what has been checked electrical-wise:

AT ECU - I am following the 04 Sti Ecu pinout found at the Ken Gilbert Factory Service Manual (FSM)

http://ken-gilbert.com/wrx/STi_Manual/index.htm

Ignition Switch ON (V) - Recorded (V)

Crank Sensor -
B135 Terminal 10 Signal (+) - 0.5 Ohms spec = 0 Good
B135 Terminal 22 Signal (-) - 0.5 Ohms -- spec = 0 Good
B135 Terminal 31 Shield - 0.4 Ohms -- spec = 0 Good

Grounds -
-Ignition system
B135 Terminal 12 - 0.6 Ohms -- spec = 0 Good

-Power supply
B135 Terminal 4 - 0.5 Ohms -- spec = 0 Good
B135 Terminal 1 - 0.5 Ohms -- spec = 0 - 0.035V Good

-Control system
B137 Terminal 1 - 0.5 Ohms -- spec = 0 - 0.055V Good
B137 Terminal 2 - 0.4 Ohms -- spec = 0 - 0.057V Good

Camshaft Position Sensor -
(LH) B135 Terminal 8 - Not Ohmed -- spec = 0-0.9V - 0.292V Good
(RH) B135 Terminal 9 - Not Ohmed -- spec = 0-0.9V - 0.283V Good

Control Unit Power Supply -
B135 Terminal 5 - Not Ohmed -- spec = 10-13V - 12.2V Good
B135 Terminal 6 - Not Ohmed -- spec = 10-13V - 12.2V Good

Sensor Power Supply -
B136 Terminal 16 - Not Ohmed -- spec = 5V - 5.04V Good

Wires from ECU to sensor continuity

Crank Sensor (E10) to ECU

-Sensor itself - Spec = 1-4K Ohms
-- 1983 Ohms - Good

-Terminal 1-Orange/blue stripe wire-->Connector E1 Terminal 1 attached to Connector B20, turns into White Wire-->ECU B135 Terminal 10
-- 0.5 Ohms - Good

-Terminal 2-White/Blue stripe wire-->Connector E1 Terminal 2 attached to Connector B20, turns into Green Wire -->ECU B135 Terminal 22
-- 0.5 Ohms - Good

- Shield from ECU - B135 Terminal 31
-- 0.4 Ohms - Good

- Shield from Sensor, goes to Engine Ground-2
--???

AVCS Sensor (E35 LH & E36 RH)

-Terminal 3 both LH and RH have White/Blue stripe wire --> Connector E1 Terminal 7 attached to Connector B20, turns into Blue/Green stripe Wire --> Terminal 3 of Shield and sensor ground joint connector
-- 0.5 Ohms - Good

Shield Joint Connector - Terminal 8 Red/Green stripe wire --> B136 Terminal 36 at ECU
-- 0.5 Ohms - Good

- LH - Terminal 2, Green/Yellow strip wire --> Connector E1 Terminal 10 attached to Connector B20, turns into Yellow Wire -->B135 Terminal 8
-- 0.4 Ohms - Good

- RH - Terminal 2, Green/Orange strip wire --> Connector E1 Terminal 8 attached to Connector B20, turns into Red Wire -->B135 Terminal 9
-- 0.4 Ohms - Good

I will try to keep this up to date and just edit this post.

Last edited by dan0492; 08-18-2017 at 10:31 AM.
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Old 08-11-2017, 12:54 PM   #22
krenberry
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Try rolling it down a hill and pop starting it
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Old 08-11-2017, 03:16 PM   #23
Master467
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Did you get anywhere with the AP log idea?
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Old 08-13-2017, 09:54 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krenberry View Post
Try rolling it down a hill and pop starting it
Hahaha i saw the idea and i was like WTF? then i looked at the username haha
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Old 08-13-2017, 10:52 AM   #25
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Logs There are about 10 logs that i made with about 5-10 seconds of cranking. I just screenshotted them so theres more data just ask if you need it.

#44



43 This log has my Crank Position sensor and it shows as an always ON setting. This does not seem correct as i think it should show ON and OFF like the Camshaft Position Sensor does on log #42. The CAM sensor is going ON and OFF because the magnet is picking up the metal notches on the end of the camshaft gear and sending a voltage signal when the metal tooth passes next to the sensor. The Crank sensor should be good at 1983 Ohms and i did resistance tests on the wires from the Crank sensor to ECU. Some of the more complex data im not sure is correct or not but any help would be appreciated!!


#42


#41


#35


#34


#29


#36


#25


#38

Last edited by dan0492; 08-16-2017 at 10:21 PM.
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