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Old 12-19-2004, 06:18 AM   #1
EcksJay
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Default Sourcing for a 1.8 to 2.5 swap

I've read a few posts and it seems that some people have had good luck with this swap. It seems relatively straight foward, and I am thinking about doing it over the winter. Where should I start looking for the motor and stuff? any year in particular I should look for?
BTW, it's going in my 93' sedan, AWD, 5MT

Thanks
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Old 12-19-2004, 01:02 PM   #2
Storm
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The private classifieds here and other forums will probably show the most results for economical donor motors. There's quite a few folks going the EJ20 swap route and end up with good low milage motors for sale.

Ideally, you want a phase 2 SOHC motor. But a phase 1 DOHC is nearly plug&play.

Check the stickys up top for more info.

Jay Storm
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Old 12-19-2004, 07:42 PM   #3
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after reading this forum every day i would say just the oppisite

its a giant waste of time
to be done correctly it has the same wireing difficulties as a wrx swap w/o the power
don't do it
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Old 12-20-2004, 12:20 AM   #4
EcksJay
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I know that I'm new here, but...

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...hreadid=383415
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...hreadid=148766

I understand that it may not be the optimal way to do the swap, but if it runs... I'm not looking to make a streetracer, just looking for a winter/summer hobbie. I figured that if it could be done without massive re-wiring, I could do the swap now, and worry about the wiring later. Am I off-base?
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Old 12-20-2004, 10:48 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaxx
after reading this forum every day i would say just the oppisite

its a giant waste of time
to be done correctly it has the same wireing difficulties as a wrx swap w/o the power
don't do it
This statement is worth expanding on.

If you plan on swapping the harness, Jaxx is right. It's too much of a PITA to bother. That being said, this swap is possible without swapping the harness. We just finished dropping an EJ25 hybrid (phase 1 block/ EJ22 heads, thick gasket) into my car. We re-used the 1.8 intake manifold. It mated perfectly to the 2.2 SOHC heads. I suspect the phase II EJ25 SOHC heads would provide the same result.

If you wanted to use the quad cam heads, it is possible to move the sensors & solonoids from your stock manifold to the new manifold. I have been in car with this setup (Phase 2 block, quad cam heads w/HKS cams, turbo legacy intake manifold) and its a screamer.

I would recommend re-using your stock manifold, as it will save you the hassle of re-routing vacuum hoses & wiring.

My 0.02.
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Old 12-20-2004, 11:38 AM   #6
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i would quote this post as perfect example
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=674462
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Old 12-20-2004, 02:14 PM   #7
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The common concensus seems that the 2.5's run rich on the older ECU's. I have wondered what would happen if you introduced a small air leak above the MAF. Would they run leaner?
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Old 12-21-2004, 03:44 AM   #8
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Knowing that the 1.8ECU would make my EJ25 swap run rich, I simply kept the 1.8 injectors and adjusted fuel pressure. I can assure you that I'm not running rich......

The car just recently passed emissions, but it didn't have to get sniffed. I almost requested it just for my own sake of knowing.

The wiring part of the swap consisted of making a bracket to hold the emmissions solonoids and sensors within reach of the plugs on the stock 1.8L harness. The only "splicing" I did was for a SAFC. I couldn't ask for an easier swap......and the power is definately there.

Jaxx...if the poster isn't looking for a WRX, why are you trying to force it on him?

Jay Storm

Last edited by Storm; 12-21-2004 at 03:51 AM.
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Old 12-21-2004, 04:54 AM   #9
EcksJay
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Belive me, I would like to have a WRX. I wasn't aware that it was that affordable of a swap! (LOL) Seriously, if it runs a bit rich, can't that be properly regulated? On the other hand, doesn't adding a turbo to a N/A engine require more fuel? So theoretically, if I swapped in a 2.5, I would run rich. What if I also set up a turbo later on? Nothing huge, just 5-10 psi. Is that a possible solution?
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Old 12-21-2004, 10:41 AM   #10
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If you're going to go through the trouble of adding a turbo to the 2.5, I would suggest doing the 2.0 swap. It will be more expensive initially, but will save you time and money in the long run. Decide in which direction you want to take the car (NA or forced induction) and stay on that path from beginning to end. Switching paths in the middle of a build costs time and money.

We kept the 1.8 injectors along with the 1.8 manifold. The car runs strong. There are a couple bugs to work out - (hey, where's that coolant coming from? ). After we get some of the bugs out, I will begin fine tuning. However, the car is not running noticably rich.

Storm - what did you use to adjust the fuel pressure? I was going to drop in a higher flowing pump and keep the stock FPR. Keep in mind that we're close to 6000 ft here, so I'm down 15% atmosphere from sea level.
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Old 12-21-2004, 10:57 AM   #11
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Jay,
I am curious how you knew the 1.8l ECU would make it run rich. I was advised that the 1.8 ECU advances the timing more up top than the EJ25 or EJ22 ECU's and that that is part of the beauty of this swap. As Diz mentioned, we are not finding his to run rich at all (at least not to our sniffers). We would like to find one of those roadside testing stations and get a true reading, but my initial feeling is that it isn't running particularly rich. And while Paul's car has the 2.2l heads, the other one he mentioned (w/25 block and heads and HKS 264 cams) doesn't run particularly rich either. I am thinking that an AFC on these swaps may not gain a whole lot...
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Old 12-21-2004, 11:44 PM   #12
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Based on what people running 2.5's on a 1.8ECU (with the 2.5 injectors) were reporting, I decided to stay with the 1.8 injectors and adjust my fuel pressure with an adjustable FPR. I'm adjusting totally seat of the pants and looking at the plugs if it runs like crap. I'm going to wire in a A/F meter this weekend to get me closer to where I want to be. The SAFC doesn't appear to be doing much in my case right now, but I am admittedly a long ways from ideally tuned! I am confident that once the fuel pressure is right, I can dial in the SAFC to make a decent improvement.

I wasn't aware of any extra timing set into the 1.8ECU. In fact, I figured that it was set very conservatively based on the crap milage and low HP/Tq the 1.8 gets for it's size. If the advance is more up top, then we should have more potential using it over the 2.5ECU if the fueling is under control.

Maybe Zephyr will chime in with some A/F numbers from the dyno runs on his swap. I'll be hitting a dyno soon after I get the tuning within the point where I can't find any more power.


Jay Storm
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Old 12-22-2004, 10:54 AM   #13
Matt Monson
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I should be talking to Mark sometime today. I'll see if I can get him to post...
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Old 12-22-2004, 12:00 PM   #14
Jaxx
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my point is that if your going to spend the time to do something do it right

i have owned two 2.5 and a 1.8 .. i actually liked the 1.8 better
the ej20 is hands down a much much much better engine in every respect

ill say it again don't waste your time
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Old 12-22-2004, 02:36 PM   #15
Matt Monson
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaxx
my point is that if your going to spend the time to do something do it right

i have owned two 2.5 and a 1.8 .. i actually liked the 1.8 better
the ej20 is hands down a much much much better engine in every respect

ill say it again don't waste your time
Jaxx,
You are entitled to your opinion, but for the $$$ it is a great option. For Diz's car we spent less than $800 on everything engine. This includes the Delta cams. Another few hundred $$$ were spent on the clutch and flywheel, and this is a great budget swap with ZERO wiring. Diz plans to use this car as his rally beater and it has a nice fat torque curve that comes on at 3200rpm. We figure once the headers are on, it will be near 200hp at the crank. For a 2700lb car, that is totally an ample power amount for rally and track use at a road course like Second Creek Raceway, that is in our backyard.
OR, for a couple thousand more, one could do the engine swap, do the 30 hours of wiring and have 250hp...
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Old 12-22-2004, 06:32 PM   #16
xephyr
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OK, here's my 2cents:

I converted a 1995 1.8 wagon to a 2.5. Here's the list:

1. 2003 2.5 shortblock (I used this year block because it has shallower volume piston tops, which will allow me to get a higher compression).
2. 1998 2.5 DOHC heads (with these heads, above block, and the thinner 0.8 mm headgasket, I have a compression ratio of about 11:1).
3. HKS 264 duration, 9.5 mm lift cams for the version 3 sti. It took me a while to figure this one out, but believe it or not, these cams fit into our phase 1 DOHC heads (Impreza 1998, Legacy/Forester 1997-1999).
4. Borla header
5. Random Tech high flow cat
6. 3" exhaust
7. bigger brakes all around, tein ha coilovers, sway bars, strut bars,etc.
8. modified 1.8 ECU. The clock in the ECU has been modified to facilitate a 7500 redline (instead of the previous 6000). this mod simply spreads out the timing map, but luckily it all works out. I don't have time to fully go into it here, but basically the stock ecu has an advanced timing curve up top for a 1.8, but with the increased compression ratio (which facilitates a quicker burn), the added displacement (going from a 1.8 to 2.5 means more time is required to burn the air/fuel mixture), and the fact the revised clock in the ECU has spread out the ignition map slightly, somewhere in all this math it works out or I just got lucky. End result, 150 whp 142 wtq, with the meat of the powerband from 5000 to 7500 rpm.

I know it sounds like I kind of hacked this thing together, while spending lots of money, but please realize a couple of things:
1. We enthusiasts here in Colorado are blessed with access to tons of cheap, good condition, used parts because Colorado has a freakishly large population of Subarus, with plenty of friends and fellow enthusiasts who work in anything from a Subaru salvage yard (they are really big out here, and there are lots of them), to a Subaru performance shop (lots of these too). I especially get hooked up when I need stuff, mostly because of the quantity and magnitude of projects I'm pursuing at any given time.
2. I am neurotically obsessed with tinkering, especially when it comes to crazy mad scientist Frankenmotor builds. Basically I had a set of heads laying around, some HKS cams I used in my other turbo car project, access to a 2003 shortblock, and a bunch of used exhaust components, etc, and basically just threw it all together to see what happend. Of course there was a lot careful thought that went into it beforehand, but a lot of it was learned along the way, and I had fun doing it!

Wether or not the above ramble justifies a 1.8 conversion, I don't know; it did for me. Ultimately, you are going to have to decide exactly what it is you want to do, and obviously take the appropriate route. For me, it was easy to do, and fun, mostly because of my extensive experience with my other turbo car project, and my abundant access to random parts. Everyone elses situation is different. Plus, I thought it would be cool to build a 250,000 mile 1995 1.8L wagon into something that does slightly better than most other NA 4 cyl cars.

Fuel injectors: they all the same size from 1993 imprezas to now, when comparing NA engines. Configurations change every now and then: side feed, top feed, pintle spray pattern, ball and seat spray pattern, etc. The turbo engines obviously have different size injectors.

1.8 L running rich: Yes they can run slightly richer under certain conditions when compared to a 2000 or newer impreza (which is touted as a lean-burn engine), but using the term 'rich' can be misleading. It might be more appropriate to say they just don't run as lean!

Statement disclosure: The above text was written in extreme haste, and a lot of the above described experiences are very summarized in description. If something I wrote seems off, please understand I might not have given the complete picture (because I'm tired of typing), or my words could be understood in different ways. In other words, please don't hammer me too harshly, be a little compassionate in your understanding, and take the above text with a grain of salt.

Happy holidays,
Mark R
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Old 12-22-2004, 07:10 PM   #17
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Mark,
You must be tired from all the attention 452whp on Tuesday with the RS-T has garnered you. And the need to answer infinite numbers of e-mails from noobs who want your set up. Get some sleep...

Was that gentle enough?
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Old 12-22-2004, 08:33 PM   #18
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Mark,

Wow... your projects sound like fun. I think I've found a new role model.

Seriously, though, I'll be heading out to Colorado (from CT) this summer... I really hope to see one of your creations around.
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Old 12-22-2004, 08:38 PM   #19
xephyr
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Monson
Mark,
You must be tired from all the attention 452whp on Tuesday with the RS-T has garnered you. And the need to answer infinite numbers of e-mails from noobs who want your set up. Get some sleep...

Was that gentle enough?

Matt, you're a jerk. But that's OK, because I wouldn't recognize you anymore if you weren't.

If anyone is wondering what he's talking about (452 whp), check out our local Colorado forum at www.awdpirates.net in the motor section and you'll see my dyno charts, and some details.

Mark R
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Old 12-22-2004, 08:42 PM   #20
xephyr
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Quote:
Originally Posted by americanyouth
Mark,

Wow... your projects sound like fun. I think I've found a new role model.

Seriously, though, I'll be heading out to Colorado (from CT) this summer... I really hope to see one of your creations around.

You're more than welcome to get in touch with us when you're out here. If time permits, i'd be more than happy to give you the HP tour!

By the way your signature regarding water is hilarious. One of the funniest I've seen in while.

Mark R.
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Old 12-22-2004, 08:46 PM   #21
mcu81
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the ignition timing is definately advanced up top..........my 2.5 actually knocked on 87 up there sometimes, so i reset the ecu, and filled w/93 and its a rocket now.....oh yea on a 95 1.8L ecu

-mikey
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Old 12-23-2004, 12:48 AM   #22
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I got a great deal, Got all my parts for around $200 (trade too). For that money I have gone from an 18.22 1/4mile time to a 15.1. I have more power at the wheels then the 1.8 did at the flywheel. Car runs great. I have around 40,000 miles on this swap. I think its the best bang for the buck mod you can do to a 1.8. I do get detonation on 87 due to higher comression of the 2.5 and the 1.8s ignition timing, However with 93 everything works well.
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Old 12-23-2004, 03:01 AM   #23
xephyr
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Just to reinforce Hawk's and mcu' statement: i have the same issues. Timing is advanced up top, and requires the use of 91 or better octane fuel. But the benefit of the timing is better performance up top.
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Old 12-23-2004, 10:05 AM   #24
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This info is golden!

Thanks Xephyr!!!!
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Old 12-23-2004, 11:08 AM   #25
jamesfacts
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xephyr
You're more than welcome to get in touch with us when you're out here. If time permits, i'd be more than happy to give you the HP tour!

By the way your signature regarding water is hilarious. One of the funniest I've seen in while.

Mark R.
Thanks! There's a story behind that I'd go into if I wanted to totally sidetrack this thread... another time.

I'll definitely drop you a line before I head I out. I have a feeling my RS is going to be jealous.
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