Welcome to the North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club Friday August 23, 2019
Home Forums WikiNASIOC Products Store Modifications Upgrade Garage
NASIOC
Go Back   NASIOC > NASIOC Classifieds > New Product Development

Welcome to NASIOC - The world's largest online community for Subaru enthusiasts!
Welcome to the NASIOC.com Subaru forum.

You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, free of charge, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, so please join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads. 
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 07-02-2019, 03:10 PM   #1
KillerBMotorsport
NASIOC Vendor
 
Member#: 198281
Join Date: Dec 2008
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Virginia
Vehicle:
2005 WRX/STi
WRB of course

Default Black Series

Hey Nasioc land, KillerB is looking for feedback on a new product line. We have 3D printed some select products in an effort to reduce their weight, and price. All of these products lend themselves well to the 3D printing process. The plastic used is an automotive grade nylon.

The first product that I am going to release for preview is the "Black Series AOS". Same performance; lower price point.







Any feedback would be appreciated.
How do you feel about the part being plastic?

How does it look?

This part is intended for the enthusiast and the original part made from aluminum is intended for pro / race use. Is this two tiered system consistent with your impression of our brand?

Thanks in advance for all of your thoughts,
"The Dude"
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
KillerBMotorsport is online now   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
Old 07-02-2019, 03:32 PM   #2
Marvick08GT
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 469091
Join Date: Jun 2017
Default

Lots of parts are plastic! Looks great to be honest, loving the Oem look. Looking to do something like this, Legacy fitment as well? Thanks!!
Marvick08GT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-02-2019, 06:39 PM   #3
SubDubRX
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 155194
Join Date: Jul 2007
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: OREGON
Vehicle:
2016 WRX Limited
CWP

Default

Like it. Now just to see if it falls in the “impulse buy” pricing territory
SubDubRX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2019, 09:02 AM   #4
KillerBMotorsport
NASIOC Vendor
 
Member#: 198281
Join Date: Dec 2008
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Virginia
Vehicle:
2005 WRX/STi
WRB of course

Default

Here is the Upper Turbo Coolant Reservoir

KillerBMotorsport is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2019, 10:07 AM   #5
pa9k
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 503859
Join Date: Jul 2019
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by KillerBMotorsport View Post
How do you feel about the part being plastic?

How does it look?
Nylon is a proven plastic in automotive applications but of course and 3D printer part has some different properties than traditional manufacturing methods like injection molding. Looking at the surface finish and fine details I'm guessing this is printed on an SLS machine such as the Stratasys Fortus line. Afaik there is no option for glass or carbon fiber impregnated nylon with SLS machines. Would you mind sharing some information on the machine and material used?

These parts look really good, and I'd imagine would be a very popular conversation piece. Have you needed to do any secondary processes to these other than removing excess material?

There are two major concerns with 3D printed nylon, first is that any 3D printed part is porous solely due to the natur of 3D printing. Are any of these components under pressure or vacuum? What have you done to make these airtight?

The second concern about 3D printed nylon is that it is extremely hygroscopic (it absorbs liquid). While this generally has no impact on the performance and durability of the parts it will cause discoloration as it absorbs liquids contained in it. I assume this is one of the reasons these parts are made of a black died nylon. How much long term testing have you done on these products, specifically the catch can, and has there been any sign of it emitting an odor as is absorbs oil and fuel vapors? Have you coated the inside with any sort of sealant to protect against this, as well as make the product airtight?

Sorry for all the questions. Im a total nerd for 3D printing and when I saw (my buddy shared with me) this I wanted to get some more information. Overall I think these look great, its a good application of this technology, and is a really innovative product and process. I look forward to seeing more products like this and learning more about your process.

Thanks!
pa9k is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2019, 11:10 AM   #6
KillerBMotorsport
NASIOC Vendor
 
Member#: 198281
Join Date: Dec 2008
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Virginia
Vehicle:
2005 WRX/STi
WRB of course

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by pa9k View Post
Nylon is a proven plastic in automotive applications but of course and 3D printer part has some different properties than traditional manufacturing methods like injection molding. Looking at the surface finish and fine details I'm guessing this is printed on an SLS machine such as the Stratasys Fortus line. Afaik there is no option for glass or carbon fiber impregnated nylon with SLS machines. Would you mind sharing some information on the machine and material used?

These parts look really good, and I'd imagine would be a very popular conversation piece. Have you needed to do any secondary processes to these other than removing excess material?

There are two major concerns with 3D printed nylon, first is that any 3D printed part is porous solely due to the natur of 3D printing. Are any of these components under pressure or vacuum? What have you done to make these airtight?

The second concern about 3D printed nylon is that it is extremely hygroscopic (it absorbs liquid). While this generally has no impact on the performance and durability of the parts it will cause discoloration as it absorbs liquids contained in it. I assume this is one of the reasons these parts are made of a black died nylon. How much long term testing have you done on these products, specifically the catch can, and has there been any sign of it emitting an odor as is absorbs oil and fuel vapors? Have you coated the inside with any sort of sealant to protect against this, as well as make the product airtight?

Sorry for all the questions. Im a total nerd for 3D printing and when I saw (my buddy shared with me) this I wanted to get some more information. Overall I think these look great, its a good application of this technology, and is a really innovative product and process. I look forward to seeing more products like this and learning more about your process.

Thanks!
I'm not going to give away all of our process details, but they are done on an HP and we can use fiber reinforced materials if need be. So far, there has been no need. As you can see by the pics, they are currently in testing... and performing exceptionally well.

Before testing they are all exposed to vigorous bench testing; dependent on the part and usage of course. For example the water pump inlet was tested at temps no cooling system should ever see while at pressures well over double the cap spring rating. After that, we put them in use and so far have accumulated a few thousand miles without issue...




I prefer the black nylon because it tends to be a good match for engine bay bits. The insides do discolor some, but more take on the color of what they are exposed to and not to and decent depth.
KillerBMotorsport is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2019, 11:15 AM   #7
pa9k
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 503859
Join Date: Jul 2019
Default

Thanks for the info! I wish you luck and hope to see more of this in the future. FWIW I think these are awesome.
pa9k is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2019, 07:41 AM   #8
mephistomarius
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 330895
Join Date: Sep 2012
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: Foxboro
Vehicle:
2002 Impreza wrx
blaze yellow

Default

This is obviously cool. Put it into production!
mephistomarius is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2019, 07:46 AM   #9
Turpid Porpoise
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 476573
Join Date: Oct 2017
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Lovettsville, Virginia
Vehicle:
2008 Impreza WRX STi
Silver

Default

I'm in for an upper coolant reservoir and I'll even help you test it.
Turpid Porpoise is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2019, 11:16 AM   #10
Rabid_Machina
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 167278
Join Date: Dec 2007
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Lacey, WA
Vehicle:
2018 WRX STI DGM
2011 WRX WRB

Default

Very Nice. I'm in for the stealthy look.
Rabid_Machina is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2019, 12:38 PM   #11
1MPREZD
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 464908
Join Date: Mar 2017
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Warrenton, VA
Vehicle:
2012 Impreza WRX
Charcoal Grey Metallic

Default

Following!
1MPREZD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2019, 09:13 PM   #12
Heatstreak96
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 307690
Join Date: Jan 2012
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: Allentown, PA
Vehicle:
2002 Impreza WRX
Silver

Default

Subscribing :3

This looks awesome, what years are you gonna make the AOS for?
Heatstreak96 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2019, 03:13 PM   #13
KillerBMotorsport
NASIOC Vendor
 
Member#: 198281
Join Date: Dec 2008
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Virginia
Vehicle:
2005 WRX/STi
WRB of course

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heatstreak96 View Post
This looks awesome, what years are you gonna make the AOS for?
Thank you!

2002-2019 WRX & STi, and most other EJ applications that have the same PCV layout.

Also the FA20 WRX 2015-2019 MY.
KillerBMotorsport is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2019, 11:55 PM   #14
jigga
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 9960
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: in bed...
Vehicle:
2002 Impreza WRX
WRBlue Perl

Default

Have you considered producing your oil pans out of a similar but durable material? I do know that VAG uses composite oil pans on the 1.8T and 2.0 EA888 engines. I believe Porsche does also on the GT3 also..
jigga is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2019, 11:23 AM   #15
KillerBMotorsport
NASIOC Vendor
 
Member#: 198281
Join Date: Dec 2008
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Virginia
Vehicle:
2005 WRX/STi
WRB of course

Default

This is the same grade of material you'll find on those applications. Even the base 911 has a plastic oil pan now (among MANY other newer cars). Strength comes from intelligent design, but the material pool is available to most anyone.
KillerBMotorsport is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-29-2019, 09:12 AM   #16
idiosyncrisia
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 448185
Join Date: Jun 2016
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: Essex County, New Jersey
Vehicle:
2016 WRX
DGM

Default

What would the warranty be on this? Any less than your normal versions?

I know nothing about nylon as a material, or really anything about fab work, but from an outsider/ idiot perspective, what is the expected life time of something like this? In my experience, plastics and stuff get brittle and are prone to cracking. I know a lot of the parts in the car are plastic, but that's just one of my fears.
idiosyncrisia is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-29-2019, 03:54 PM   #17
car_freak85
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 13530
Join Date: Dec 2001
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Cascadia
Vehicle:
EA63 , EA81T, EJ20G,
EJ205

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jigga View Post
Have you considered producing your oil pans out of a similar but durable material? I do know that VAG uses composite oil pans on the 1.8T and 2.0 EA888 engines. I believe Porsche does also on the GT3 also..
Unless KillerB commits to extensive impact and gravel spray testing, I would avoid a nylon oil pan like the plague.

(Drawn from work experience in OEM warranty claims/part failure rates)
car_freak85 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-08-2019, 08:47 AM   #18
KillerBMotorsport
NASIOC Vendor
 
Member#: 198281
Join Date: Dec 2008
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Virginia
Vehicle:
2005 WRX/STi
WRB of course

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by car_freak85 View Post
Unless KillerB commits to extensive impact and gravel spray testing, I would avoid a nylon oil pan like the plague.

(Drawn from work experience in OEM warranty claims/part failure rates)
Here are some Nylon examples from our development 991.2...

As you can see, lots of plastic, and a plastic oil pan. They, and other high end sports cars, have been doing this for many years now.





Design is going to have a profound effect on longevity and durability, but we're not known for under-engineering

Plastic is something we're all going to see more and more in automotive applications as engineers take advantage of new process, manufacturing capabilities and material grades.
KillerBMotorsport is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-08-2019, 04:28 PM   #19
car_freak85
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 13530
Join Date: Dec 2001
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Cascadia
Vehicle:
EA63 , EA81T, EJ20G,
EJ205

Default

C'mon, that engine is on the opposite end of the car compared to ANY Subaru (cept'n the 360), and has that MASSIVE, thick aluminum crossmember in front of it. Gravel spray is probably not a huge issue in this case, but the types of warranty failures I'm seeing are for things like sensor mounting bosses coming loose, drain plugs being overtightened, etc.

I'm not saying you guys at KillerB can't do a fantastic plastic oil pan, on the contrary, everything you folks build seems to reset the standard. But you're going to have to have an uphill climb to convince me that I need a plastic oil pan, especially when the EJ/EZ/FA engines was never designed around one, which brings up its own set of durability variables.

The other products discussed in this thread sound very promising, but unless a plastic oil pan costs the same as OEM, adds horsepower, increases MPGs while preventing spun bearings and cracked ring-lands, I just don't see the benefit for the average Joe.
car_freak85 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-08-2019, 08:41 PM   #20
KillerBMotorsport
NASIOC Vendor
 
Member#: 198281
Join Date: Dec 2008
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Virginia
Vehicle:
2005 WRX/STi
WRB of course

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by car_freak85 View Post
C'mon, that engine is on the opposite end of the car compared to ANY Subaru (cept'n the 360), and has that MASSIVE, thick aluminum crossmember in front of it. Gravel spray is probably not a huge issue in this case, but the types of warranty failures I'm seeing are for things like sensor mounting bosses coming loose, drain plugs being overtightened, etc.

I'm not saying you guys at KillerB can't do a fantastic plastic oil pan, on the contrary, everything you folks build seems to reset the standard. But you're going to have to have an uphill climb to convince me that I need a plastic oil pan, especially when the EJ/EZ/FA engines was never designed around one, which brings up its own set of durability variables.

The other products discussed in this thread sound very promising, but unless a plastic oil pan costs the same as OEM, adds horsepower, increases MPGs while preventing spun bearings and cracked ring-lands, I just don't see the benefit for the average Joe.

I never said we were making a plastic oil pan. Merely that the capabilities are there based on process and materials.

FWIW, the Porsche pan is WAAAY lower than a Subaru pan (despite the location) and hangs further off the wheel/axle centerline which means it's MORE likely to get impacted by something (rock, speed bump, etc...). With AWD and the pan in the rear it's FAR more likely to get hit with gravel since it's behind where the gravel is flying from. Design wise, the challenges are fewer than on the Porsche too since it spans a much shorter distance (thermal expansion) in two directions. You don't design an engine for a plastic pan, you design a plastic pan to work with a metal engine block.

Regardless... we have no pan plan man
KillerBMotorsport is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-08-2019, 09:35 PM   #21
2slofouru
NASIOC Supporter
 
Member#: 90539
Join Date: Jul 2005
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: Lake Charles
Vehicle:
My BOV goes
COVFEFE!

Default

But maybe....you can produce a plastic intake manifold as well. Not that the AOS and expansion tanks aren't sweet.



Just putting that out there.
2slofouru is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-16-2019, 10:18 AM   #22
KillerBMotorsport
NASIOC Vendor
 
Member#: 198281
Join Date: Dec 2008
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Virginia
Vehicle:
2005 WRX/STi
WRB of course

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2slofouru View Post
But maybe....you can produce a plastic intake manifold as well. Not that the AOS and expansion tanks aren't sweet.



Just putting that out there.
We have an intake design that we feel is innovative, versatile, and will have better performance than anything on the market. The catch! we would have to charge $3500 for it.

With some success on these black series parts we may look at 3d printing to help lower the projected price of this manifold.

What do you think?

Nick
KillerBMotorsport is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:05 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2019 Axivo Inc.
Copyright ©1999 - 2019, North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club, Inc.