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Old 09-12-2012, 10:20 AM   #1
s2ktosti
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Default Benefits of a stage 1 tune on 2009+

Since I've gone from stock (obviously), Cobb stage 1, and now Torqued Performance Stage 1 I thought I'd post something in the newbie section since someone usually turns up asking about it.

This also applies to Stage 2 come to think of it.

Lets start with the stock factory tune.

The factory tune is for lack of a better word... garbage. It runs too lean, has hesitation issues, and goes from responsive to sluggish several times a day. Any time I pushed the car over 4k rpms I could feel it "hiccup" and then take off. I'm assuming this is the car going from Closed Loop to open. Very annoying to say the least. Either way the stock tune never impressed me, and how lean it was running never gave me the warm fuzzies. Maybe if drove it all the time at 3500 rpms or less it'd be fine. (i'm sure that's what subaru thought we'd all do... not)

Cobb's stage 1

Cobb's stage 1 is a solid tune. I ended up having to use the 91 oct map even though we have 93 readily available. I was getting to much knock for my comfort level. But anyway, much smoother than the factory tune with the 91 map. My biggest problem with the cobb tune is it feels more like the factory tune should have, but I was never impressed with its throttle response. It was smooth, but didn't seem responsive. Still, over all it's a huge improvement on the factory tune. I don't believe in butt dyno's, and never really noticed a huge improvement for power. The car just ran happier is about the best I can say there.

Torqued Performance Stage 1

Now this tune is really fun. So far I haven't had any issues with knocking, the throttle is very responsive, it feels really smooth. It's good for 91 or 93 octane also, so you don't need to swap maps if you take a road trip from a 93 octane area to a 91. I'm very happy with it, and part of what you get is if you do log knock or other issues you can email over to TP and they'll help get you sorted out. This is where they really shine over Cobb, who'll just tell you to run one of their other maps and hope it works or go find a tuner.

I'm not putting Cobb down, they just won't customize a map for one customer unless you bring it in to their shop. They aren't into customized E-tunes, I think they might be missing the boat on that one.

Now, is a custom dyno tune better than an E-tune? Of course, it's also a heck of a lot more expensive and the benefits for the typical stage 1 or 2 car isn't overly exciting. If you're a min/max type of person go for it. If you just want your car to run reliably, have more power, be responsive, and run smoother a GOOD E-tuner can set you up. No, you won't have a pretty chart to show off how much power you are making to your interweb buddies. I've always taken those with a grain of salt anyway as the damn things read different from shop to shop and day to day.

Feel free to post your own experiences with any E-tuner and what you thought of it over the stock tune. If we can consolidate this info, maybe we just link this thread or one like it whenever someone in the newbie section inevitability asks about tunes.
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Old 09-12-2012, 10:45 AM   #2
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I enjoyed reading this, I like picking up a little info on the newer models. I'm somewhat out of that loop.
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Old 09-12-2012, 10:57 AM   #3
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I started with a stage 1 cobb tune and was pleasently surprised. It was far better than the stock tune, but still had some hesitation in throttle response and I experienced a few lean conditions on the 91 map even though I was running 91. I contacted cobb and explained the situation, asked if it could be the elevation i'm at (5200ft) and they basically blew me off. They told me I needed to upgrade to premium fuel since there's no way I could run lean if I was using the correct fuel and map.
I'm also not putting cobb down, they make a decent plug and play product. But I decided to go open source anyway.

So is open source more expensive? Is it worth the extra cash? well yes, for me it has been. I plan on going stage 2 and beyond at some point and i'd rather be able to tune my specific vehicle in my specific conditions rather than an OTS tune.

Good move OP, this could be useful for newbies if we get enough participation.

This is just my personal experience, and everyone should gauge their needs against their checkbook and make their own decision.
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Old 09-12-2012, 11:06 AM   #4
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I'd love to do a stage 1 tune but I'm concerned about warranty issues. I haven't even taken delivery of my 2013 yet so I don't want to shoot myself in the foot so to speak. I'm not really planning on any mods until this isn't my DD (5+ years) but if the car runs more smoothly I wouldn't mind doing this. What do you guys think?
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Old 09-12-2012, 11:15 AM   #5
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I'd love to do a stage 1 tune but I'm concerned about warranty issues. I haven't even taken delivery of my 2013 yet so I don't want to shoot myself in the foot so to speak. I'm not really planning on any mods until this isn't my DD (5+ years) but if the car runs more smoothly I wouldn't mind doing this. What do you guys think?
Nobody can make that decision for you.

The stage 1 tune WILL run better and smoother, and be safer than the stock map. However, should you have any engine/drivetain issues, SOA will certainly frown on it and will likely deny the claim. It's a decision that only you can make.

The question I asked myself that ended up deciding it for me is, "If I do tune it, and it's running well and is knock free, and the engine STILL fails, do I really want Subaru to put another set of crap pistons back in anyway?" It's about $1k to drop in a set of forged pistons on a relatively new vehicle if you do most of the labor yourself, not that bad.
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Old 09-12-2012, 11:17 AM   #6
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Great write-up, OP.
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Old 09-12-2012, 11:44 AM   #7
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Just for clarification, you can get a custom tune using the accessport. You do not need to switch to opensource. Each has its advantages/disadvantages and people like one over the other for very valid reasons that fit that individuals need.

Long story short, both work well and get the job done.
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Old 09-12-2012, 12:05 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by s2ktosti View Post
The factory tune is for lack of a better word... garbage. It runs too lean, has hesitation issues, and go from responsive to sluggish several times a day. Any time I pushed the car over 4k rpms I could feel it "hiccup" and then take off. I'm assuming this is the car going from Closed Loop to open. Very annoying to say the least. Either way the stock tune never impressed me, and how lean it was running never gave me the warm fuzzies. Maybe if drove it all the time at 3500 rpms or less it'd be fine. (i'm sure that's what subaru thought we'd all do... not)

Cobb's stage 1

Cobb's stage 1 is a solid tune. I ended up having to use the 91 oct map even though we have 93 readily available. I was getting to much knock for my comfort level. But anyway, much smoother than the factory tune and doesn't ever run lean on me with the 91 map. My biggest problem with the cobb tune is it feels more like the factory tune should have, but I was never impressed with its throttle response. It was smooth, but didn't seem responsive. Still, over all it's a huge improvement on the factory tune. I don't believe in butt dyno's, and never really noticed a huge improvement for power. The car just ran happier is about the best I can say there.


I don't disagree that the stock tune does run to lean when transitioning from closed to open loop but I'm just curious to see if you were monitoring that with your wideband. When you said Cobb's map was causing too much knock do you mean FBKC or FLKC, and what levels were you seeing? I'm surprised as Cobbs OTS maps are fairly tame and really shouldn't be causing any knock. The Torqued Performance map pushes the car a bit more, but in my experience those maps are top notch.
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Old 09-12-2012, 12:22 PM   #9
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Yup. Play at your own risk. Log often. I'm addicted to logging!
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Old 09-12-2012, 12:32 PM   #10
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I'll have to see if I can hunt down the logs again. I'm not a tuner by any stretch of the imagination so what I think is a problem may or may not be. What I think of as too much could be perfectly fine . On 3rd gear pulls I was seeing a lot of -2.5 and -1.5 corrections and a knock sum of 15-20 per pull. Switched to the 91 oct and it all went away. Frankly I went with the no knock is better than any knock and stuck with it It could also have been crappy gas too. They are fond of ethanol mixes around here. It's supposed to be 10%, but who knows.

In case anyone missed it, these are my observations and feelings. I'm not tuner, nor do I care to be one.
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Old 09-12-2012, 12:36 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by s2ktosti View Post
I'll have to see if I can hunt down the logs again. I'm not a tuner by any stretch of the imagination so what I think is a problem may or may not be. What I think of as too much could be perfectly fine . On 3rd gear pulls I was seeing a lot of -2.5 and -1.5 corrections and a knock sum of 15-20 per pull. Switched to the 91 oct and it all went away. Frankly I went with the no knock is better than any knock and stuck with it It could also have been crappy gas too. They are fond of ethanol mixes around here. It's supposed to be 10%, but who knows.

In case anyone missed it, these are my observations and feelings. I'm not tuner, nor do I care to be one.


-1.4 or < knock usually isn't anything to be worried about but I will agree no knock is always better .

As far as your ethanol content comment goes its sort of backwards. If there is a larger % ethanol content you will actually have better knock protection as it has a higher octane rating, the tuner will just need to compensate for the amount of fueling needed in order to achieve correct AFR's under boost.

Was a wideband used to measure true AFR's under boost?
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Old 09-12-2012, 01:18 PM   #12
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Nope, don't have a wideband don't plan on getting one. Besides, this is getting off topic. If I wanted to trouble shoot it I'd have made a post in the Tuning section.
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Old 09-12-2012, 01:20 PM   #13
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Nope, don't have a wideband don't plan on getting one. Besides, this is getting off topic. If I wanted to trouble shoot it I'd have made a post in the Tuning section.

Then your statements about how rich or lean something is running are based on nothing. I only ask because lots of people claim they are running to lean but have absolutely no data to back up such a statement.
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Old 09-12-2012, 02:24 PM   #14
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Just for you I removed "lean" from cobb's tune info. Now can we return to our regularly scheduled post?
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Old 09-12-2012, 07:04 PM   #15
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As far as your ethanol content comment goes its sort of backwards. If there is a larger % ethanol content you will actually have better knock protection as it has a higher octane rating
I never understood why people complained about "gas containing up to 10% ethanol" as if it were a bad thing. It raises the octane.
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Old 09-12-2012, 07:22 PM   #16
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I never understood why people complained about "gas containing up to 10% ethanol" as if it were a bad thing. It raises the octane.
Only if the gas was already at the octane rating before the Ethanol was added. If it was 87 piss and they just added enough Ethanol to bring it up to 93, that's a whole different ballgame.
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Old 09-12-2012, 07:36 PM   #17
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i love my tp stage 2 tune. his stage 1 was way better than the cobb stage 1. it took 3 times to get my stage 2 map right, and its awesome. i am curious to see what it would do against a protune. a protune near me is almost 400 bux, and if it only gets me 10 more whp i will stick with my 85 dollar etune. and if i add an intake and exhaust he will also retune it for no charge...gotta love that!
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Old 09-12-2012, 08:13 PM   #18
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Only if the gas was already at the octane rating before the Ethanol was added. If it was 87 piss and they just added enough Ethanol to bring it up to 93, that's a whole different ballgame.
Correct.
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Old 09-14-2012, 09:34 AM   #19
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Ya, most of the gas around here is pretty bad. The best place is a somewhat local BP station but it's way out of my way unfortunately.

I know the party line for Cobb is that the their tunes are meant to be "super safe", but I wonder if the real reason is they left some "meat" for other tuners so they'd be more inclined to support the AP. Also have to wonder if that's why they haven't gotten into the custom E-tune side of things.
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Old 09-14-2012, 02:52 PM   #20
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Just for you I removed "lean" from cobb's tune info. Now can we return to our regularly scheduled post?
You should also replace "lean" on the stock tune with "I read it is lean on the Internets". We know Subaru has to server the EPA gods but you did not measure anything yourself and have no professional tuning credibility to call the stock tune "garbage". Sorry you can't put stuff out on the Internet and cry about it when the conversation doesn't please you.

One interesting thing I found, moddng and demodding my 09 WRX over time, stock to Cobb to TP stage1, TP Stage 2, then back TP stage 1 to stock, was I loved the change from each step, but as I de-modded, I realized it isn't that different in feel. I guess that is a psychological effect, we want to believe there is a big difference each step of the way and on the flip side we realize it isn't that big a deal. I know how dare I say each "Stage" isn't totally worth every penny, but it is something for the casual modder to think about...
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Old 09-14-2012, 03:28 PM   #21
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You should also replace "lean" on the stock tune with "I read it is lean on the Internets". We know Subaru has to server the EPA gods but you did not measure anything yourself and have no professional tuning credibility to call the stock tune "garbage". Sorry you can't put stuff out on the Internet and cry about it when the conversation doesn't please you.
The stock tune is garbage. There is MORE than enough evidence of that, from dyno plots with AFR superposed to logs during a pull. It also drives like absolute **** from 3-4k.
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Old 09-14-2012, 03:29 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Power6 View Post
You should also replace "lean" on the stock tune with "I read it is lean on the Internets". We know Subaru has to server the EPA gods but you did not measure anything yourself and have no professional tuning credibility to call the stock tune "garbage". Sorry you can't put stuff out on the Internet and cry about it when the conversation doesn't please you.

One interesting thing I found, moddng and demodding my 09 WRX over time, stock to Cobb to TP stage1, TP Stage 2, then back TP stage 1 to stock, was I loved the change from each step, but as I de-modded, I realized it isn't that different in feel. I guess that is a psychological effect, we want to believe there is a big difference each step of the way and on the flip side we realize it isn't that big a deal. I know how dare I say each "Stage" isn't totally worth every penny, but it is something for the casual modder to think about...
There are enough people on here I trust that agree it does that I don't feel like I need to reinvent the wheel and do it over.

On your second point I don't disagree too much. I'll never go beyond stage 1, just don't care enough frankly. I've had the modded Evo's, s2000's, and Sti. While it was entertaining briefly, about all it really accomplished was burning a whole in my wallet. I'm more interested in clearing up some of the things that annoy me. Hesitation, throttle response, sometimes laggy sometimes not etc. If it happens to make the car a little more reliable with extra power it's a bonus. That's why I don't use my butt dyno and throw guesses out over how much hp I think it's making now. Don't know... really don't care.
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Old 09-14-2012, 03:46 PM   #23
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I just wanted a healthy tune on my car, not one that's running a 14.X:1 until 4,XXXrpm. Power and driveability are bonuses.
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Old 09-14-2012, 08:55 PM   #24
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Very happy with my Stage 2 e-tune. Can't imagine a dynotune being much better than what i have now.
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Old 09-14-2012, 11:42 PM   #25
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How many PSI's of boost are you running now? 18?
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