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Old 04-02-2009, 05:00 PM   #126
piknockout
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Iman, I'm quoting this in the A.I. thread in the Mid-Atlantic section to keep from going off topic in John's thread.
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Old 04-02-2009, 05:08 PM   #127
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cool...
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Old 04-04-2009, 12:24 AM   #128
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Dyno/Protune "update"

So - my car has seen a dyno 4 times:
-Agile back in 2004. I wanted a baseline, but they used the wrong gear ratio so the chart didn't end up being accurate.
-ArFab for a TopSpeed ProTune in 2006. I wanted an STX map and a stage 2 (street) map.
-Mach V for a new baseline in 2008, after getting the new two-cat exhaust.
-ISP Racing for a Jorge/P&L ProTune on 3-28-2009. I wanted a new STX map and stage 2 map to accomodate my new hardware.

They were all on a Dynojet, so the Dynojet software will happily plot them on the same graph. And they were all in March with relatively similar weather. HOWEVER, comparing dyno plots from different days with possibly slightly different Dynojets is not necessarily scientifically meaningful. It's more about the shape of the curve than the absolute numbers.

So, the STX map comparison:


The blue line was the Cobb off-the-shelf STX basemap. The red line was my old ProTune, with a single high flow cat. The green line is my new ProTune with two high flow cats. Despite the additional cat, the horsepower curves are very close to one another, especially after 3000 RPM. The torque curves are very close too. While the gains over the off the shelf map are not massive below 3000 RPM, they are definitely noticeable above 3000 RPM - and the seat of the pants feel confirms this. The car wakes up above 3000 RPM a LOT better than it did with the off the shelf map. So that additional cat is providing some restriction but it's not too bad. A small price to pay for not worrying about a potential protest.

One other thing worth noting:
The TopSpeed STX map could not be run on the street. When I got it done, Doug told me to never run it in any gear higher than 3rd and that it would knock/run lean (I forget) if I did. My existing tune does not have this restriction. I feel a lot more comfortable this way (in case I forget my AccessPort or something).

Stage 2 map comparison:


This compares the TopSpeed free boost map, the off the shelf STX map and the P&L free boost map (14.5 psi, I believe). Again, the new map is very close to the old one, even with the additional cat.

Jorge said the car was very strong for a stage 2 car, especially with 95,000 miles. He said that even some catless / bigger TMIC cars don't do as well as mine did - that the average is in the 215-220 whp range and mine had put down almost 240.



Other quick notes:
-Jorge and JJ pointed out that my vacuum hoses were very brittle and worth replacing. They see a lot of heat (proximity to the turbo doesn't help) and my car is pretty old. This is a cheap/easy maintenance item.
-"reset ECU" in the ver1 Accessport forgets all the stuff your car has learned - so if it's corrected for a bad tank of gas, resetting the ECU forgets this. That's probably not surprising. What I didn't know until Jorge told me, was that changing base maps (I don't know about realtime maps) does NOT erase the learning (this may be different on the APv2). So he made me two different basemaps. Laziness will probably keep me on the STX map most of the time though.

Tire update

The 245-40-17 Dunlops arrived this week and I got them mounted today. They look big on my 8" RPF1's - the lip is definitely covered for parallel parking

From re-reading this long ass thread on SCCAForums:
http://sccaforums.com/forums/thread/293309.aspx
I think I'll start the pressures at ~37/34. Seems they are similarish to the AD07's and I ran 39/36 on a warm day on those. Tomorrow should be in the 50's and hopefully will be dry.

Hershey should be fun!

Last edited by Butt Dyno; 07-08-2010 at 12:19 AM. Reason: fixed images
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Old 04-04-2009, 01:05 PM   #129
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I always gauged a good autox tune by 200 ft lbs @ 3000 rpms- looks like yours is spot on

the STX maps all have that little blip at 3200 rpms (blip of boost overshooting)- very telltale

I'm wondering how many others are going to give 245/40's a go this season, be very curious to hear your opinions

good luck!
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Old 04-04-2009, 03:55 PM   #130
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I really think you should try the 245/35/17 toyo's John. At FedEx with the hills and all...you could get a huge advantage with the better gearing. Plus the guy out west said they launched pretty well at the El Toro pro solo.
Food for thought...
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Old 04-04-2009, 04:10 PM   #131
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I don't think launching will be as big of a factor for national tours...the bmw's weigh less and have 265's, surpassing our lateral grip. Also, at dixie i was hitting the rev limiter couple times in one spot, so that might just make things more complicated by having to shift or ride the rev limiter for a while.

For local events they'll work great, possibly for pro solo's too.
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Old 04-04-2009, 11:55 PM   #132
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So John, how did you like the Dunlops today?
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Old 04-05-2009, 12:45 PM   #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BIGSKYWRX View Post
I'm wondering how many others are going to give 245/40's a go this season, be very curious to hear your opinions
Quote:
Originally Posted by piknockout View Post
So John, how did you like the Dunlops today?
Event #2: Susquehanna SCCA @ Hershey - 4/4/2009

I got the Dunlops mounted the day before. I got to drive on them a little bit, but not (as the kids say) spiritedly. I put 100 miles on them on the way to Hershey. So they were not exactly scrubbed in.

Travis ran the car in heat 1, because heat 2 was full. It was ridiculously windy. Entire rows of pointer cones would be blown 20 feet onto the course sometimes - courseworking was NOT pleasant. Combine that with some timing errors and heat 1 took a loooong time. The car looked good from the outside, but Travis later said that while it felt good in the sweepers, the breakaway was very unprogressive and that it seemed like the car wasn't going to stop in the braking zones. I think he ended up with a 64.x.

My first run I went out trying to overdrive as much as possible to accelerate the tire breaking in process. I ended up with a 63.7 +1 I think. My second run felt pretty good, 62.5. My third run I went out trying to improve a couple of spots and did, but I got bent out of shape at the end (the finish was VERY fast) and went through the right side of the finish sideways. Threw away a 62.0, boo. My last run I messed up the tight stuff in the middle of the course and ended up with a 62.1. Dave Mac ended up (I think) winning the class with a 61.6 in Paul (planetarygear)'s car.

The depressing part - Corey had a 58.2 To match that in PAX with an STX car would mean a 59.2, or about three seconds. I know where I lost about half that time - but the rest of it? Crap! Fortunately we'll have a datalogger soon.

The tires feel amazing so far (even with not really being broken in, and at full tread), better than the RE01Rs *ever* felt in the dry. In the sweepers, especially. I think they will be great for the next month or so, and after that, who knows what we'll be on.

After talking about it with Travis the car is still a little too easy to get loose, so at some point I'm going to add about .3 to the rear so that it's -3.5 front -1.6 rear. I'm hoping that its existing tendencies are partially because of new tires and partially because the extra caster has added a bunch of front-end grip. But either way, it should be easier to drive fast with a little more rear stability.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bdi View Post
I really think you should try the 245/35/17 toyo's John. At FedEx with the hills and all...you could get a huge advantage with the better gearing. Plus the guy out west said they launched pretty well at the El Toro pro solo.
Food for thought...
Quote:
Originally Posted by penderperson View Post
I don't think launching will be as big of a factor for national tours...the bmw's weigh less and have 265's, surpassing our lateral grip. Also, at dixie i was hitting the rev limiter couple times in one spot, so that might just make things more complicated by having to shift or ride the rev limiter for a while.

For local events they'll work great, possibly for pro solo's too.
For anyone who is following this, a good thread about the Toyos in this size is here:
http://sccaforums.com/forums/thread/351205.aspx

I'm not ruling anything out. I did have a set of the 245-35-17 shaved FK451's that Hoppe used to win STX in 2004, and I definitely loved the gearing, but I didn't really like how they felt anywhere else. This also concerned me:
Quote:
After 28 runs on the Tires the inside wore out quite a bit so I might need to flip them I think I might be able to get 40 more runs out of them at the most.
The other thing is that I have a coupon for two free Yokohamas from AI last year, so that is probably going to sway me a little

john
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Old 04-05-2009, 09:46 PM   #134
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Sounds like a good first outing, good luck at Fed Ex this weekend. Definitely get that rear end in check though, if you're always worried about spinning the car, you'll drive more timid and slowly. It comes down to confidence and trust in the car, and when you can't trust the car you can't really push it.
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Old 04-05-2009, 10:17 PM   #135
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Quote:
Originally Posted by piknockout View Post
if you're always worried about spinning the car, you'll drive more timid and slowly. It comes down to confidence and trust in the car, and when you can't trust the car you can't really push it.
I concur, sounds like you should lower the rear about .4 and see if it improves, from your measurements, sounds like you'll gain a little camber too.
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Old 04-13-2009, 07:10 PM   #136
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Event #3: Autocrossers Inc @ Fedex, 4-11-2009

Weather forecast: it should stop raining by 10 AM.

AI runs a three heat setup. I chose to work an extra work assignment in the morning so that I could run in heats 1 and 3. Since it should stop raining in the morning, it should be nice and dry by the afternoon.

Actual weather: annoying rain ALL DAY

First event was "drying", second event was "dry but really cold". This one would definitely be categorized as wet. It was equally wet for all the heats at least.

The course was a little diabolical. Lots of slaloms and evil offset gates. Backside, backside, backside!

I meant to disconnect the rear bar (forgot my jack, so changing the ride heights would have been harder) but forgot. STX ran first heat. My first run, I was just overdriving trying to feel things out. The Dunlops were very impressive in wet braking. In general, the car felt good, pretty good lateral grip in the sweepers as well.

I didn't lose to Craig this time, which was a pleasant change. Despite coning 3 of my 4 runs, I ended up winning STX by about a second and a half. I ran three raw times that were all very close, which was pretty frustrating. I would have runs where I improved one part quite a bit but would then mess something else up.

My work assignment was very unpleasant. I can't imagine how bad it would have been without my rain jacket.

In heat 3 I ran non-comp. I found a couple 17mm wrenches and fully loosened one of the rear endlink bolts in the passenger side endlink, the one that holds the endlink to the lateral link. I'm not 100% sure if this is "good enough" for disconnecting. It seemed to help a little. I could hang it out a bit more through the offset bits. My fastest run (raw) was a 76.8 +3 where I hit a slalom cone early and then started overdriving quite a bit. It worked really well in the offset section, where the car was almost sliding gracefully (almost) to get around to the backside of the cones.

I ended up PAX'ing 6th, behind three Toyo'd STS cars, Josh's codriver and a GS 8th gen Civic Si on street tires, and barely finishing ahead of Josh's fastest (coned) run. Overall this was better than I usually do in the rain. Losing to Ian by 4 seconds in an AWD car though, ugh.

Dear weather,

What the ****!??! Can you please let me drive in the DRY WEATHER, ONCE? PLEASE!!

Love,
John
p.s. seriously
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Old 04-13-2009, 07:54 PM   #137
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While we both lost pretty harshly to Ian and Mike in the CRX, they were on Toyos and there were a lot of slaloms/offsets that favored the CRX. Yeah, that's what I'm going with.

You definitely drove pretty solidly, especially considering first heat had a lot more rain/wet than the 3rd heat. In first heat there were definite rivers coming down the hill that weren't there in 3rd heat. And the most important thing...you had at least ONE clean run.

<---REALLY hoping for a dry 4/26 event with WDCR.
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Old 04-13-2009, 08:13 PM   #138
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Wait. Did this just move to Motorsports?
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Old 04-13-2009, 08:15 PM   #139
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mla163 View Post
Wait. Did this just move to Motorsports?
Yeah. Not that much traffic in the other place.
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Old 04-13-2009, 09:35 PM   #140
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Whoa - STX maps make 226 whp? Impressive. I had no idea you could make that kinda extra power without touching boost. I wonder what kind of power an STU tune for the 2.5L WRX can make. Searching...

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Old 04-13-2009, 10:52 PM   #141
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Whoa - STX maps make 226 whp? Impressive. I had no idea you could make that kinda extra power without touching boost.
Yeah, it's crazy. Phil's ESP car with no cats, bigger TMIC, no boost restrictions and 116 put down 250/250 here.

I'm guessing, from Phil's past posts and others, that you'd see similar hp but with more torque that comes on faster. It'd be interesting to see. I definitely think the header + turbo inlet are worth it though, from my results, Tom's and a bunch of other people. The definitive STX tune thread:
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...&highlight=stx
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Old 04-13-2009, 11:17 PM   #142
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Perhaps this is a silly question, but.... Couldn't you just build a downpipe with a divorced wastegate tube that basically goes.... nowhwere? Or re-joins with a very small opening? That would restrict flow through the wastegate, giving you tons of boost without changing the ECU.

-Mike
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Old 04-13-2009, 11:33 PM   #143
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I'm guessing we haven't seen anywhere near a "fully prepped" STX WRX yet

I just went with something that I knew wouldn't throw a CEL, figuring that I wasn't fast enough to justify spending time/energy trying to find another 10 whp. There are probably a lot of good ideas out there that have not been tried...
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Old 04-14-2009, 09:59 AM   #144
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While you can get close to the same max power, the curves are completely different. My Street tune and STU tune are pretty close in top whp (7whp difference), but the torque curves come on a ton earlier and stronger on the street tune.

<---Only acting like he knows what he's talking about.
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Old 04-14-2009, 04:55 PM   #145
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so BD clear this up for me, in stx you can adjust boost, just not by tweaking the stock boost map? Awesome thread btw thinking seriously about ditching plans for 16, 18g to setup for stx. One more thing i remeber you saying something about putting egt back in up pipe, I have sti up which doesn't have cat or egt is this legal in stx? Thanks again for great read. Ken
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Old 04-14-2009, 07:46 PM   #146
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kx02wr View Post
so BD clear this up for me, in stx you can adjust boost, just not by tweaking the stock boost map? Awesome thread btw thinking seriously about ditching plans for 16, 18g to setup for stx. One more thing i remeber you saying something about putting egt back in up pipe, I have sti up which doesn't have cat or egt is this legal in stx? Thanks again for great read. Ken
If boost increases as a consequence of changing a legal part, the increase is legal. STi uppipe is illegal since you have to have the emissions system running as intended from the manufacturer. Of course, you'll get a CEL with no sensor plugged in and the manufacturer didn't intend on having CEL's with normal operation. No, you can't mask it either.
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Old 04-14-2009, 08:48 PM   #147
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kx02wr View Post
so BD clear this up for me, in stx you can adjust boost, just not by tweaking the stock boost map? Awesome thread btw thinking seriously about ditching plans for 16, 18g to setup for stx. One more thing i remeber you saying something about putting egt back in up pipe, I have sti up which doesn't have cat or egt is this legal in stx? Thanks again for great read. Ken
No, you absolutely cannot *adjust* boost. But boost changes that happen as a result of other legal mods are allowed. For instance, a free flowing exhaust tends to cause a boost spike - you can see it in my STX dyno plots.

As for the uppipe, it's legal but if you removed the EGT it should be throwing a CEL, and that would be illegal. Or you could have put a resistor in there, which would also be illegal. Don't get me started on the emissions stuff... last time I wrote a 17 page proposal.

edit: doh, didn't see the next page.
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Old 04-14-2009, 09:18 PM   #148
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well my utec does mask it but i'm guessing thats not legal either, at least not without running a stx map? I thought that even if you put the EGT probe in a catless up that it will throw a cel anyway? Sorry i'm a complete noob when it comes too this, (have run 2 auto x's though) but what about intercooler y pipe and the piece that goes from intercooler to throttle body I'm guessing these are illegal as I don't see anyone running them? yet turbo inlet is ok? Thanks again
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Old 04-14-2009, 09:24 PM   #149
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They specifically say you can replace the O2 sensor, but fail to mention WITH WHAT, meaning you can replace an O2 sensor with ANY O2 sensor - including one that sends back voltage changes in altered value ranges. Sure, they say I can't use a resistor in the O2 harness, but what if one were built into the sensor? What if the O2 sensor came with a metal extender pre-made as 1-piece? It wouldn't be modified because it came that way...

Allowing the wholesale replacement O2 sensor of unrestricted origin blew the whole thing wide open as far as I'm concerned. I can "make" whatever O2 sensor I want, and make it report whatever I want it to. With that in place, the rest is pointless... IMO, of course.
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Old 04-14-2009, 09:37 PM   #150
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kx02wr View Post
well my utec does mask it but i'm guessing thats not legal either, at least not without running a stx map? I thought that even if you put the EGT probe in a catless up that it will throw a cel anyway? Sorry i'm a complete noob when it comes too this, (have run 2 auto x's though) but what about intercooler y pipe and the piece that goes from intercooler to throttle body I'm guessing these are illegal as I don't see anyone running them? yet turbo inlet is ok? Thanks again
Both of those pipes are between compressor inlet and the intake manifold, so you can't touch it in STX.
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