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Old 04-14-2009, 09:41 PM   #151
kx02wr
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Splash i hear what your saying but you have an sti which doesn't have the egt probe like earlier wrx's. I have an sti up in my car so would it be better to tap that and put the egt in the sti up or just gut my stocker and put that in?
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Old 04-14-2009, 09:43 PM   #152
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thanks flyboy
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Old 04-15-2009, 12:34 AM   #153
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Not having up pipe cat is legal, but the EGT sensor has to be in place.
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Old 04-15-2009, 01:35 AM   #154
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Yes, it has to be in place.

Frankly, the STI UP isn't that good, any aftermarket UP would be better, legal, and can be had pre-tapped for your EGT. Just wrap it to keep the heat in.
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Old 04-15-2009, 05:18 PM   #155
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Thanks guys not looking forward to changing th up again, but oh well guess i could do a turbo inlet while im at it.
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Old 04-22-2009, 06:27 PM   #156
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Bump for the new autocross forum. Woohoo!

Should get the first real warm/dry event of the year this Sunday. I'm psyched!
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Old 04-22-2009, 09:34 PM   #157
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This may be a dumb question, but why run the bigger swaybar in the front when you are running harder springs in the rear? Wouldn't those two settings work against each other?
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Old 04-22-2009, 10:06 PM   #158
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I run pretty much the EXACT setup as buttdyno and i've been toying with that idea some.

Running something like hotchis f/r sways, which are hollow 25.4mm, would soften the front(not the rear though) and lose about 8lbs/per. Then all you would have to do is drop the rear rate about 50-75lbs and you would theoretically have the same balance with lighter, bars.

It really comes down to driver feel though and until i decide somehow i don't like how this setup feels(or performs) then i won't bother spending the money on sways and new springs.

Edit: something else this would do is give you a better base setup for low grip/wet...Wet autocross are pretty tricky so far and the big bar and big rear springs might be a factor there.

Last edited by penderperson; 04-22-2009 at 10:15 PM.
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Old 04-22-2009, 10:54 PM   #159
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PitwrkzZ1 View Post
This may be a dumb question, but why run the bigger swaybar in the front when you are running harder springs in the rear? Wouldn't those two settings work against each other?
My thinking is something like this: maximize front grip and adjust the rear grip to taste. Roll stiffness comes from both the swaybars and the springs, and if you believe the math earlier in the thread a lot more of it comes from the swaybars. I didn't know this when I originally got the springs, but 50 lbs of spring does not seem like it matters as much either way when you have bigger bars. So I don't think they are working *against* each other exactly.

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Originally Posted by penderperson View Post
I run pretty much the EXACT setup as buttdyno and i've been toying with that idea some.

Running something like hotchis f/r sways, which are hollow 25.4mm, would soften the front(not the rear though) and lose about 8lbs/per. Then all you would have to do is drop the rear rate about 50-75lbs and you would theoretically have the same balance with lighter, bars.
Been there, done that, got the t-shirt The Cobb bars and the Hotchkis bars are (AFAIK) the same. I have the Cobb rear bar, and I *had* the Cobb bar for a while last year, the rest of the setup the same. I hated it, it felt like the car was taking forever to turn in - check out the early 2008 stuff in here for the details.

I've been struggling with this for a year and I'm still struggling with it. There are a lot of people (like me) who are running the big front bar and feel that it really works with their driving style. And there are also people (like Colin) who say "I switched from 27 to 24 and the car has more grip now".

There's also this picture from Hershey:


It's a bit of an offcamber surface so I'm not sure how seriously to take it, but the inside tires are not very in touch with the ground... might be a sign that my bar:spring ratio isn't right. I've thought about going with a 600 lb/in front spring and a 24/26 adjustable bar, starting at 26 and then seeing how it feels at 24. It's still a possibility but I'm hoping that I can just leave the car alone

There is a very good chance that the big front bar feels like it has better turn in even if the data doesn't bear it out. The only way to know for sure is to datalog it both ways (and data aquisition is on the way - soon!). But at this point, right here right now, I'm willing to give up theoretical grip to keep the car feeling right - the big front bar makes the car feel good to me and confidence is fast.

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Originally Posted by penderperson View Post
It really comes down to driver feel though and until i decide somehow i don't like how this setup feels(or performs) then i won't bother spending the money on sways and new springs.
Exactly!

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Originally Posted by penderperson View Post
Edit: something else this would do is give you a better base setup for low grip/wet...Wet autocross are pretty tricky so far and the big bar and big rear springs might be a factor there.
I was happy with how the car did in the wet on the 11th, with the rear bar quasi disconnected (bolt loosened all the way out but not removed), FWIW.
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Old 04-23-2009, 08:04 AM   #160
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ButtDyno View Post
My thinking is something like this: maximize front grip and adjust the rear grip to taste. Roll stiffness comes from both the swaybars and the springs, and if you believe the math earlier in the thread a lot more of it comes from the swaybars. I didn't know this when I originally got the springs, but 50 lbs of spring does not seem like it matters as much either way when you have bigger bars. So I don't think they are working *against* each other exactly.
But with the big front bar and the smaller rear bar (esp the hollow one), don't you experience understear? or is the 50 lb difference in the spring enough to counter it?
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Old 04-23-2009, 08:08 AM   #161
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Sways and springs are not the only things contributing to the car's overall balance. Alignment, ride height, tire pressures, shock settings, etc all play a role. If you can stomach it there's a lot of stuff in this thread about various experiments on those fronts
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Old 04-23-2009, 11:42 PM   #162
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I used to run big front bars on my STI, and don't get me wrong, the turn-in (right off center) was astounding. However, I noticed that, after the weight had transferred, I was MUCH slower through sweepers due to entry/mid-corner push.

My dilemma, was how to increase front grip and keep the inside rear wheel down because I have spun that wheel before. For now, I have gone to a COBB front bar and have compensated for that with 600lb springs (I also have 700's available to test with). I'm hoping the big front bar was too stiff, the small bar on my old rates too soft, and this = just right...
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Old 04-24-2009, 09:32 AM   #163
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Splash View Post
I used to run big front bars on my STI, and don't get me wrong, the turn-in (right off center) was astounding. However, I noticed that, after the weight had transferred, I was MUCH slower through sweepers due to entry/mid-corner push.
I found the same thing when I was running the Strano bar on my WRX. Great turn in and very good grip, but once you crossed the limit of traction the understeer was much more sudden and much harder to recover from.

Sized down to the Whiteline 24/26 bar last year and I'm much happier with it. Have had it on stiff since I put it on, but will probably try the softer setting once I get my front ride height dialed in a little more (switched springs this year) and make a decision on tires.
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Old 04-24-2009, 03:53 PM   #164
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I just had my first dry event with the 27mm bar. I haven't noticed any increase in understeer. In sweepers, so far it's the back end that wants to come around first. Transitioning into slow corners I do get some understeer. I'm pretty sure with my super-soft street friendly springs (257 lb/in f, 217 lb/in r) I'm doing myself more good than harm by increasing that front wheel rate.
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Old 04-25-2009, 12:27 AM   #165
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Yeah, with springs THAT soft, you HAVE to use big bars... It's the only way to NOT need -10 degrees of camber... <grin>

Need a brand new Stranobar?
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Old 04-26-2009, 10:05 PM   #166
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Event #4: WDCR/SCCA @ Fedex, 4-26-2009

ZOMG! It's a dry event that's actually dry! And warm! The weather was high 80's dipping into the 90's. A rude awakening, for sure. Normally I like a segue between my spring and summer. It'd have to do.

This was the first event with the 245 Dunlops and the new suspension settings, that wasn't either freezing cold or wet. Needless to say I was excited.

I was codriving with Travis (ProDarwin) again. He has a history of beating me in my own car (sort of like almost every codriver I've had ever).

We ran 6th heat which was a little sparse so there was very little time in between runs to think. I don't think it was much more than 5 minutes in grid between when I would park the car and Travis would leave.

First run: Exploratory - wasn't heavy on the gas, just feeling the car out. Ended up with a 52.5, which fortunately was clean, giving me the opportunity to push harder on subsequent runs. I sort of forgot what the top part of the course looked like and was really tentative there.

Second run: Got Josh (piknockout) to ride along. I overshot the first big braking zone a little bit but recovered okay, enough to set myself up reasonably well for the slalom afterwards. Next braking zone not so good, and the offsets at the top of the course didn't go well - bad planning, another partially blown braking zone. I ended up 52.1 + 1. Not sure exactly where I hit it, but I'm guessing it was on the uphill (fast, WOT) offset gates on the right side of the course.

Third run: determined not to mess up the braking zones I focus on getting the car stopped with plenty of time. I do this MUCH better than my previous two runs while still staying aggressive everywhere else. However, I hit the last cone on the course right before the finish. I was pretty happy about the raw time though - 51.5 (+1).

As this is going on, I am keeping one eye on the scoreboard. At the end of 3 runs, I was still in 1st, sitting on my clean 52.5. Shane (wrxwagon2b) started out with a 51.8 + 1 on his *first* run in Justin (Caelorn)'s car and I was pretty confident that the 52.5 was not going to get it done in the end, with Larry, Travis, Vince, Justin, Shane, etc etc all having more cracks at the course. (STX has gotten a lot tougher over the years in DC!) So I absolutely needed a clean run, and it needed to be faster than my first run.

Fourth run: despite overshooting the first slalom cone and having to wait to get back on the gas, I finish with a pretty good run and end up with a 52.0 clean. At the time this was good enough for first.

Then Travis pulled in with a 51.8 clean Figures! Larry also came in after Travis with a 52.5. I'm not sure if that would have beaten my first run or not so I was glad I improved.

We kept the tire pressures at 38/34 all day and were spraying the tires (and intercooler) in between runs to keep them from overheating. Thanks to Ben(neological) for helping out as it was getting crazy towards the end.

Overall the car felt really good. It rotated nicely with throttle lift, but not too much. It slaloms pretty well and it's easy to stay ahead of the cones. It does not appear to be the superspinning death machine it has been at some past events. I dunno how it's going to work on concrete but for right now I am not worrying about it

Results aren't up yet - should be interesting to see how we did in PAX.

Last edited by Butt Dyno; 04-28-2009 at 07:04 PM.
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Old 04-26-2009, 10:17 PM   #167
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sounds like fun

have you formed any opinion on 245/40 vs 235/40 yet?
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Old 04-26-2009, 10:42 PM   #168
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Quote:
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sounds like fun

have you formed any opinion on 245/40 vs 235/40 yet?
Without trying the same compound in 2 sizes it's going to be hard.

My best guess is that it depends on the tire. The AD07's for instance seem to be wider in 235-40-17 than pretty much every other 235-width street tire - so a Yoko 245, limited to an 8" wheel, might not be worth it. That may explain why Josh Sortor (and Andy Basham, and that E30 M3 in STX) went with the 235's instead.

Terry from Vorshlag has posted similar advice on bimmerforums where they are discussing whether it's worth it to run 265's on an 9" wheel in STX. He has a lot of ST* setup time and has mostly been recommending the 255's on the grounds that the 265's aren't worth it on a 9" wheel. However I don't know if that assessment is partially because the E36's have problems fitting a 265 in the rear - requires a little massaging, if you will.

(The E46 has no such problems. There was a pretty well prepped one at the event today that was pretty close to Josh's STU-winning time with Brian Hair driving. I think it was on 285 width Kumho XS's. That would be a fun car.)

Now that the AD08s are coming out and I have two freebies coming to me I am going to make the decision hopefully based on the tread width of the tires. If the AD08 245 is unusually large like the AD07s were I will probably get a 235 - but if they are sized more like the RE01R/RE11 I would probably go with the 245.

Dunlop doesn't publish numbers for the Z1 - that is info I would like to have so I can see if this theory holds up
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Old 04-26-2009, 11:14 PM   #169
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the Neova's were definitely on the wide side the RE01R's weren't "skinny", but they weren't as wide as the Yok's

is there a cutoff date for the ad08's to be included this year?
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Old 04-26-2009, 11:17 PM   #170
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Nice running John, Travis definitely pulled that last one out of nowhere. And apparently I gave Shane a case of my cone-itis.

On the M3, they were running 275 Kumho MX's with Brian finishing a whopping 0.001 seconds behind me!
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Old 04-26-2009, 11:33 PM   #171
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BIGSKYWRX View Post
the Neova's were definitely on the wide side the RE01R's weren't "skinny", but they weren't as wide as the Yok's

is there a cutoff date for the ad08's to be included this year?
Yeah - I was surprised that the RE11s were the same width as the RE01Rs. I thought they'd be more AD07-sized.

They need to be available in one size by 4-30. What does available mean? Dunno.

http://sccaforums.com/forums/2/350351/ShowThread.aspx
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The Tire Rack expects to have inventory of the AD08 in a range of sizes by the end of April. I would expect them to appear on our website sometime early next week with pricing and ETA information. Barring any hic-ups in transportation etc, we expect the tires to ship from our warehouses by the 30th if not a few days sooner. As others have indicated, Yokohama is fully aware of the situation and plans to meet the rule requirement.
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Old 04-26-2009, 11:35 PM   #172
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Quote:
Originally Posted by piknockout View Post
Nice running John, Travis definitely pulled that last one out of nowhere. And apparently I gave Shane a case of my cone-itis.
Just stay away from me I wouldn't say he pulled it out of nowhere. He usually beats me and definitely has better habits - he is generally much better than me at the "go slow to go fast" stuff that I overcook.

Quote:
Originally Posted by piknockout
On the M3, they were running 275 Kumho MX's with Brian finishing a whopping 0.001 seconds behind me!
Whoa. I didn't realize it was that close!
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Old 06-02-2009, 11:13 PM   #173
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Event #5: WDCR/SCCA @ Fedex, 5-31-2009

After five weeks off (seriously, I think this is the biggest mid-season break for me since like 2005) I was jonesing for some autocross. I spent 5-23 til 5-30 in the Outer Banks for vacation, and with that and some other stuff I came into this event having driven 1300 miles in the previous 8 days (mostly in the M3). My poor WRX was feeling neglected

My AD08's were ready at Radial Tire, but I hadn't had time to pick them up, much less get them properly scrubbed in, so it was the Dunlops again. No real complaint there - they are plenty fast and a known quantity. Plus in my half asleep, half awake state I don't think I could have dealt with the tire change

No video. Our data aq system is still not in, and I forgot to charge the camcorder.

The course was much more sweeper oriented than the 4-26 event - only two real slaloms to speak of (plus a really fast wall-om). There were two very fast sections - one after the first slalom, one before the second slalom. Basically:

Launch
Hard left
slalom uphill
Hard left
Straightaway with minor kink - Hard left - Really tiny straightaway (more on this later)
Hard left
Downhill "S"
Showcase corner
Fast wallom
Hard left
Slalom
Hard left
Offsets
Finish

Naturally it was very important to set up properly for the fast sections.

First run: The car was a little loose in the beginning - cold tires and the slick-er surface (Fedex has two different kinds of asphalt) I guess. I forgot about the last slalom cone, leading to one of those "oh crap!" let off the gas moments. I tried to coast (as opposed to gas, brake, gas, brake) through the S parts and could do it so that felt good. The showcase was okay but I was still off of where I wanted to be. I had been told that the entry into the 2nd slalom was tight... it wasn't (damn you DrSeuss!). Car felt good by the end of the run. 66.5 clean.

Second run: Aiming for incremental improvement, got it. 65.5 clean. Still pretty sloppy in the first slalom.

At this point, my mindset was not "gotta get faster" as much as it was "well, 65.5 seems like a reasonably fast time for the class, I just need to be a little faster". This is the wrong mindset. I'm not sure why this happened.

Third run: I have two specific goals: clean up the entry into the first straight and try Josh's idea about apexing off of the showcase cone. The slalom was still bad. I was slaloming pretty well at the 4-26 event, very "crisp" if you will, but I felt behind all day. I still somehow mangled the entry into the straightaway, then overdrove into the braking zone, and had to get off the gas quite a bit to recover. I missed on the apex cone as well. Basically, not much positive, lots of overdriving, and as a bonus... a cone (the kink in the straightaway). 65.9 +1.

I watch Travis's 3rd run and it's great. Excellent slaloms, good car placement. He gets a 46.3. Justin (Caelorn) gets a 64.5. My mindset goes from somewhat positive to "how am I going to find another second". It was way pessimistic. Again, this is not typical for me. I am also pining for some data aq.

Fourth run: I go out with two goals: stay clean and try to pick up some time in the opening slalom. I do this, but I'm really tentative in a lot of spots, like the S, the wallom and the offset gates near the finish. I get some improvement, but not enough - 65.3. The "be safe" strategy isn't fun, but it did keep me in 3rd place instead of 4th. That might matter later. Last year I threw away a few points by pushing harder than I needed to and not being clean. It's super annoying having much faster raw times than people but losing to them.

Travis then goes out and knocks another .8 off his best time - 63.5! Excellent run, PAXes him 17th out of 227. So I know I can't blame the car. And this is on a full tread set of Dunlops with a couple thousand street miles on em.

I think that a lot of my suckitude from this event was mental. Travis does not usually kill me, though he does usually beat me - it's usually by a much much smaller margin. 1.8 seconds is a lot. And the last event, I finished 1.8 seconds behind Josh. This event - 4 seconds.

Next event is the Finger Lakes Tour. Not sure yet what tires we will be on, depends how they work out this Sunday (and of course the weather). This is my first ever Tour - did a divisional in 05, didn't do very well.

Hopefully we will have data aq for this one, but either way, I need to keep the right mindset. I can't worry about what times other people are running - I just have to focus on improving. I need to prioritize the right spots, too. At this event, I never thought to myself "the straights are important, so make sure you stay tidy and maintain speed entering them". As a result I lost a lot of speed. In general I didn't really think about the relative importance of the various course elements.

Maybe I need to read Speed Secrets again

Last edited by Butt Dyno; 06-02-2009 at 11:58 PM.
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Old 06-03-2009, 12:10 PM   #174
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Didn't realize that you had been off for 5 weeks beforehand, sounds like my situation last weekend. Seems to take an event sometimes to get back into it. So we'll let this one slide!

From what I could see from the sidelines, it definitely appeared that you weren't pushing it as hard/fast as you could/should have in the high speed sections. In both of those spots, I was essentially flat out in 3rd gear in the STi.

This is definitely a very mental sport, and I'm still getting my head around that piece of it.

And Travis was driving the car well. As I said in the other thread, he's picking up this car well, much better than I did last year. It was a little too oversteery last year, but seems to be better this year.

Good luck John!
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Old 06-03-2009, 12:54 PM   #175
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Here's one place you guys were losing time...the showcase turn that we talked about. Here are a few quick pics of you and Travis vs. Olsen, Neary, and myself. That's a lot of distance to make up and there was a lot of time to gain there. Not sure which runs these were on (probably early), but I think this is one spot where Travis really made up time on his last couple of runs. Just food for thought.

You and Travis



Olsen, Neary, myself


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